Doing a timber stand improvement

[Weed Wacker]

Just keep in mind the logger is going to have limits as to what he will even take. Most loggers prefer a 12 foot log (some will do 8) and roughly 24" diameter as a minimum. If you have lots of stuff that falls under that - that you really want gone, you may need to consider a clear cut. I was also told that if you want a different tree species in there than is already growing your best bet is a clear cut and then planting as well. I also agree in making sure he takes even the lower valued stuff you want gone.

My biggest concern is the invasives. They can simply explode and take over if allowed. 30 acres is a lot if your having to fight the invasives by hand because you cant get equipment in there. Just make sure you have a very solid and achievable plan for the invasives. Keep in mind most of them will need to be killed with some sort of spray or stump treatment....just cutting them off tends to just piss 'em off and with the newly available sunlight.....you can simply unleash a real monster!

good luck.

I did meet with my logger on Saturday and I think we are on the same page with what I want done. The agreement was that he start on one end and get everything as he goes, not just the money trees first and then come back for the paper trees. What I like about the 50/50 agreement is it works like a time and material job, I can get him to take more or less as he goes along. He agreed to pay me $100 per tri axle load for the paper wood and fire wood. I told him if it gives him more of an incentive to remove more junk he can keep the $100 per load, I just want the job done right.
The invasive are also a big concern for me. I plan on spraying with oust Xp in the next couple of weeks, hopefully that will take care of the mile a minute and Japan grass. The tree of heaven will be a real problem.
Do you think it would be affective to stump treat this time of year if I cut some now ? and then follow up with a gly treatment in the summer for the root suckers and stump sprouts that might survive ? And yes I think it will be a multi year tree planting project to follow.

 

[ruskbuckss]

I did meet with my logger on Saturday and I think we are on the same page with what I want done. The agreement was that he start on one end and get everything as he goes, not just the money trees first and then come back for the paper trees. What I like about the 50/50 agreement is it works like a time and material job, I can get him to take more or less as he goes along. He agreed to pay me $100 per tri axle load for the paper wood and fire wood. I told him if it gives him more of an incentive to remove more junk he can keep the $100 per load, I just want the job done right.
The invasive are also a big concern for me. I plan on spraying with oust Xp in the next couple of weeks, hopefully that will take care of the mile a minute and Japan grass. The tree of heaven will be a real problem.
Do you think it would be affective to stump treat this time of year if I cut some now ? and then follow up with a gly treatment in the summer for the root suckers and stump sprouts that might survive ? And yes I think it will be a multi year tree planting project to follow.

The electric company just cut a bunch of black locust under the power lines in front of my house and they treated the stumps. It must be a good time to do it. I don't know what they used, but the stumps were green. Is the tri axle a logging truck or a dump truck. Don't think that paper wood isn't worth anything. I was getting $350-$400 a load for wood that was just pulp,to small to be used for lumber. Firewood I only got $15 a cord for thou, a lot of labor involved.

 

[Jeff23]

Yes you can stump treat now. Are you in PA? I will be doing some work for DCNR and will stump treat with 5% Polaris and 20% Garlon 4. It sounds like you don't need a forester , but only because there's not enough meat on the bone for everyone to make money and also because you know what's going on. It will be a good deal IF you have a trustworthy logger, and there are some to be found. Let us know how it goes.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

I was told by our forester to cut every shoot of the " Tree of Heaven " and treat every cut-off shoot to make sure they all die. Garlon 3 was what he got for us to use. Tree of Heaven spreads by seed AND root system. Gotta kill it all to be successful.

$100 / tri axle seems too low for pulp wood. JMO.

 

[Weed Wacker]

Yes you can stump treat now. Are you in PA? I will be doing some work for DCNR and will stump treat with 5% Polaris and 20% Garlon 4. It sounds like you don't need a forester , but only because there's not enough meat on the bone for everyone to make money and also because you know what's going on. It will be a good deal IF you have a trustworthy logger, and there are some to be found. Let us know how it goes.

Yes my farm is in S.C. Pa
I am going to be a little slow at work next week so i can go out there with some of my employees and put a hurtn on them tree of h

 

[Weed Wacker]

Ok so I am now complete with my tsi. Everything went well and I am happy with the outcome so far, but I realize I have a LOT of work ahead of me to keep the invasives under control until something good can take it's place.
One question I have is, what to do with each tree species that I know I have and will come.
Elm ? Good tree leave alone ?
Hard Maple ? Good tree leave alone?
Soft Maple??
Locust, kill all the stump sprouts & seedlings?
Hickory ??
Black walnut ?? I realize the timber value but has really no wildlife value and I have a good bit of them.
Tree of heaven, I know to kill everyone of them.
Sycamore??
Hawthorne?? Good leave alone ??
Ash, is all dead or dying
Oaks, very little of these there and didn't cut any
Cherry, more there than oak but didn't cut any

Then there's green briers, raspberries, black berries, mile a minute, Japanese stilt grass, Japanese barberry and a bunch of other stuff, some that I don't know what is.

 

[almanac12]

With all of those invasives, are you hoping for natural regen, or do you plan on planting some trees. 30 acres is a lot to plant...

How much slash is down? Is it possible to mow in areas where there's heavy invasive shrubs and few desirable saplings?

I would guess that the elm will die from Dutch elm disease or elm yellows.

Soft maple might grow faster than the others you've identified, but deer nip the terminal buds in the winter for browse.

As for the rest, I personally would leave the noninvasive trees if it were my property, unless I had strong healthy seedlings going that would be released by the open canopy.

 

[Jeff23]

Ok so I am now complete with my tsi. Everything went well and I am happy with the outcome so far, but I realize I have a LOT of work ahead of me to keep the invasives under control until something good can take it's place.
One question I have is, what to do with each tree species that I know I have and will come.
Elm ? Good tree leave alone ? **** Not of much use, but shouldn't take over due to disease. Low priority, IMO.
Hard Maple ? Good tree leave alone? **** Future timber value, watch it doesn't dominate more desired species.
Soft Maple?? **** Hinge with abandon so they become useful and don't take over. Eliminate when releasing desired trees.
Locust, kill all the stump sprouts & seedlings? **** Unless you want to use them for fenceposts, reduce these.
Hickory ?? **** Do you like squirrels? Can have timber value, as well, but no much for deer.
Black walnut ?? I realize the timber value but has really no wildlife value and I have a good bit of them. ** Keep a stand for future income?
Tree of heaven, I know to kill everyone of them. ****With vigor.
Sycamore?? **** Nice looking tree that is only good for nesting/roosting.
Hawthorne?? Good leave alone ?? **** Do you want the berries for you or the birds?
Ash, is all dead or dying **** Don't worry about it, it will gradually cycle out.
Oaks, very little of these there and didn't cut any **** Then hunt them when they're bearing!
Cherry, more there than oak but didn't cut any **** Future timber value.

Then there's green briers, raspberries, black berries, mile a minute, Japanese stilt grass, Japanese barberry and a bunch of other stuff, some that I don't know what is.

I made notes by the tree types above. Green briars, raspberries and black berries are good for cover and, of course, jelly. Mile a minute is worth going after. Stilt grass is a tough out, but I would hit it with gly when possible.I hate barberry, but it can provide security cover because it is evil.

 

[j-bird]

I was told (more than once) that if you want something to grow that is different than what you already have/had - then you need to plant. Those species you have are doing well on that site for a reason and will only perpetuate more of the same.

As for your list:
Elm - is junk - it will make some cover when it's young, but once it's to high to create cover - hinge it. It has minimal timber value here and I see little wildlife value personally to it.
Hard Maple - decent timber value here and the deer will browse it - it is very shade tolerant and will cast a dense shade as it matures. You can hinge the smaller ones fairly well, but I have had poor success hinging the larger ones.
Soft maple - again decent deer browse and cover, but not a really valuable timber tree. Most soft maples like moist soils.
Locust - prolific tree - not much wildlife value in my opinion and other than for fence posts and fire wood not any real timber value. The thorns can make a nice greeting for wander neighbors. It is a legume so it does have some soil benefits. I have read of folks having deer that like to eat he beans of the honey locust (big thorns) but I have not seen it.
Hickory - good for squirrels. Lower timber value, young ones hinge well for me. Again cover when smaller, then I tend to hinge. I let larger ones stand for the next timber harvest. Decent firewood
Walnut - great timber value potential and good squirrel food. Roots can produce a toxin to suppress competition. Poor firewood, likes moist soils as well.
Tree of heaven - I have zero experience with.....I'd like to keep it that way!
Sycamore - good for stream bank stabilization and den trees. Poor timber value (crate and pallet wood) fairly prolific - LOVES water! Not significant wildlife value that I am aware of. High moisture content so poor firewood.
Hawthorn - good tree for nesting birds - fruits are bird food as well. Another great treat for the neighbors to have to deal with when walking!
Ash - many are dying - was a decent timber value until the borer showed up and the market was flooded with folks trying to get something from them before they all died. Decent firewood.
Oaks - I try to save everyone I can that makes sense. Those that are damaged need to go, but I save even crooked ones to produce mast. I like a nice mix of whites and reds. Like all crops however there comes a time to harvest. Your going to need sunlight for oaks - that's just the way it is. If you don't want to plant bare roots - collect acorns and direct seed. Just keep in mind - everything in the woods loves an acorn!
Cherry - great timber value - fruit feed birds. Very prolific after a harvest on my place.

All trees make decent cover when younger and may be able to be hinged later. Some you can allow to mature for timber or wildlife habitat or even just diversity. I typically let most things grow as long as they are not creating an issue with a more desirable tree. You can mange for timber, you can manage for wildlife, you can do a little of both. Fact is that in many cases your going to have gaps that simply need something growing and that is just fine. Not every tree in the woods needs to be feeding wildlife or be destined for the saw mill. The thing I would do is mark any desirable tree in some form and give it the best chance you can. Many oaks and the like can be difficult to ID in the winter time, so mark those young trees with flagging tape in the summer when they are easier to ID and that way you don't make a mistake later. You should see an explosion next year and the years shortly after. It's amazing what a little sunlight can do!

 

[Davewp]

Locust - prolific tree - not much wildlife value in my opinion and other than for fence posts and fire wood not any real timber value. The thorns can make a nice greeting for wander neighbors. It is a legume so it does have some soil benefits. I have read of folks having deer that like to eat he beans of the honey locust (big thorns) but I have not seen it.

Believe it, Ive seen it. Would then ask myself, why are you eating that, and not enjoying this delicious food plot?

 

[Weed Wacker]

Thanks guys for all your input, it helps me to better understand each tree type and know better how to move forward from here. I do have plans to plant some spruce and ceders for bedding pockets, some chestnut, oak and a variety of shrubs and stuff from Big Rock. The total area that we cut is in the area of 30 acres but the really bad section is probably about 10 acres and that's the section that we will need to plant to help it along. I think the rest will just need to be managed for invasive's till natural re gen can take care of itself. The reason for the really bad section is because it used to be farmed and when that was discontinued no one ever paid any attention to it and you know what happens with that in today's world of invasive's.
Thank's again everyone.

 

[H20fwler]

Oaks, walnut and cherry have great timber value, hard maple and hickory secondary... sycamore has timber value here, used for furniture/butcher blocks/cabinets/flooring there is usually not thick stands of them like other tree types.
Soft maple is a good browse tree when young and seeds are eaten by lots of wildlife. I don't like them opting to give space to better value trees.
Locust are great for fire wood and fence posts and everything eats on the pods late season...they are an edge tree here getting shaded out by bigger hardwoods.
Elm is a good wood but they die easy...they are great for morel mushrooms when the bark slips.
Ash is a great wood but are dying like crazy.

I select cut the hardwoods on a fifteen year cycle to keep canopy from getting to thick and make some farm cash, I am very fussy about big white oaks being cut.
Any nut tree is a good thing in the woods, I also leave my sycamores I don't have many but like the way they look and wildlife eat the seed pods.

 

[Weed Wacker]

Would anyone have any suggestions on what to do with all my logging roads ? should I seed them with something like winter Rye ?most of them are on the east side where my deer bed. is that too much food scattered throughout the property ? any suggestions would be helpful, thanks

 

[Jeff23]

Every situation is different, but I could never see enticing deer to feed on roads I use to access the property. If some of them would work as trails that would guide deer by a stand, and you don't need them for access, that may work for you. I wouldn't just plant them all just because they're cleared without an overall strategy.

 

[Weed Wacker]

I should have been a little more clear with my question. The roads i am talking about are in what i call our sanctuary/bedding area. It is strictly off limits exepet for habitat improvement in the off season. I guess i wasn't sure if i plant something right in there bedroom, will they hang out there to long and not move across the property till to late. one of the roads does lead passed a tree stand but most of my stands are farther away from bedding, I just don't like to get to close. I guess i just wasn't sure if putting a snack in there bed room would be counter productive as far as hunting goes.

 

[bueller]

I only plant spots that I can hunt. They still feed on the browse and mast where I don't plant but why increase the time they spend out of view of your stands/blinds.