Doing a timber stand improvement

[Weed Wacker]

I am planning on doing a tsi on about 30 acres of my 110. taking out mostly what I consider junk trees, lots of locusts, some ash, some elm, a couple big old maples, about a dozen big Sycamore that are on the side of the ridge, and a good bit of black walnut. there's also a lot of downed trees that need to be cleaned up, it's such a jungle at places that it's actually a blockade for the deer, there's areas that they simply just go around. A local logger tells me he would do it for 50 50 all the saw logs would go to the local saw mill, paper wood to the paper mill and the rest for fire wood. He would give me a copy of all the tickets. I have never done this before, does this sound like a fair deal ? the locals tell me he does a good job and is trust worthy.

 

[swat1018]

That sounds like a timber sale, which is what is best to do anyway. Is he also going to cut small trash trees, to improve future timber quality or is it just marketable timber being cut?

 

[ruskbuckss]

I just had 50 acres cut last winter. I hired a forester and I was 100% pleased with the job he did. I would never personally recommended hiring just a logger to cut my woods. I could write on here all night about people that have been ripped off and had there woods destroyed after just hiring a logger. I'm not saying there are not good ones out there, but. Here are a few thoughts to consider. Is it up to the logger to decide what trees to cut? The more he cuts the more money he gets right? Is he just going to cut only good saw trees, then you are left with a forest of junk.(Hi Grading) How do you know he will give you the all the tickets from the mill? Can't they just forget to give you a few? You most likely have no way of figuring how many cords or board feet of timber you have. What happens if they leave your woods all rutted up from the machines? There are way to many factors to consider without somebody on your side. The WI DNR even says that around 90 percent of land owners that hire a forester, make more even after paying the forester their cut than hiring just a logger alone.

 

[Bill]

I did a 50/50 with a logger on NJ. Worked out great.
I do have and used a forester.

 

[Big Snow Man]

I would hire a forester snd write up a solid contract. What happens if the ground gets soft and it's all rutted up ? What about the slash and how that should be processed. If it's bid out you may get more.

 

[Weed Wacker]

I had the local DCNR forester out to help me decide what to do and he got depressed when he saw it because of all the invasive s on the east side of the ridge. The west side of my ridge is canopied shut so there is no re gen, i can see 200 yds in there so his thoughts were do nothing until i get the east side under control because as soon as you let sunlight in it will just get over taken with Mile A Minute, Japanese stilt grass, Tree of heaven and some other junk. As far as the east side goes he said i really couldn't screw that up any more than it already is. So his thought was that i might be able to find someone to come in and take all the junk and clean up a little, Without charging me for it, if i am lucky. I am not doing this for the money it just needs some serious management and that will start by taking all the big old gnarly trees that are throwing a lot of shade and don't have any wildlife value and cleaning up all the downed stuff, then me and the boys can get in there to manage the invasive s and hope for some natural regeneration and also plant trees and shrubs to help turn it in a positive direction. The logger will only have one way in and out so i can set a couple trail cams to keep track of the loads he takes out and compare that with what he gives me. I will not let him go in and just take the stuff with value, he will start on one end and clean up as he goes, anytime he starts working ahead and just getting the valuable trees and not cleanup after himself i will have the right to remove him from the property. again this is not really a timber sale, it is in serious need of better management.

 

[j-bird]

If you have never done this before and can't be there to keep an eye on things I would suggest hiring a forester. I would want a complete inventory of the trees he plans on taking BEFORE he cuts any of them and those trees need to be marked so you know what is being cut. Payment terms and other conditions need to be in writing as well. If this logger is respected in your area - he knows the drill. Most folks don't do logging very often so it's important to do it right as if you don't it can take decades to recover from. I personally prefer to be paid up front and to hold a retainer for any repair work as well.

TSI efforts starting with a timber harvest is a great way to make a big impact right away. You can then do hinge cutting, tree planting and other things later if needed. I agree in that you are going to have to address the invasives - you give them a chance they will simply take over even further. a timber harvest can be the best habitat project you can do if done right and done well. Good luck to you.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

We had 2 timbering jobs in the last 4 years at our camp. We hired a forester after talking to 4 of them. We marked the trees we wanted saved ( oaks & hickories, and some maples ) for future timber value. These were decided on by us and the forester we hired. We had a contract drawn up and the forester was to police what was cut and provide all paper work to us. We told him up front that we could be a good advertisement for him for future jobs, or a bad one - depending on how he oversaw the job and returned the land and trails to good shape - no ruts, no drainage problems, etc.

We specified we wanted the tops left to provide free protection for any seedlings and sprouts that came up after the canopy was opened up. We wanted our roads, trails and the log landing graded and seeded with a mixture we agreed on. Having a retained amount of money is a good idea to assure all items in the contract are addressed. Final payment is when you are satisfied. We had no problems.

 

[Weed Wacker]

I did talk to a private forester about coming out and looking at it and possibly mark it and manage it for me but when i told him whats there he wasn't really interested. they get paid a percentage and i think he felt there not enough money in it for him. I am planning on walking it this Saturday with the logger and feel him out. I have found that the more time you spend with a person just talking about anything other than the job at hand you can soon get a feel for what kind of person he is, the more he talks the more you learn. You have to see it to understand my situation, I think what ever i do with it will be better than it is now.
I am not really worried about ruts and so forth, i have equipment i can fix them myself. I will try and take some pictures of the trees i am talking about.
I think the only reason he agreed to even pay me 50% is because of the black walnut, there's a good bit there. My plan was to take out all the ones that are around my food plots and all the old mature ones and any that are in areas that i want to hinge for bedding.I would let the young strait ones that are not in my way for a future harvest. All the ash is dying, I have no use for sycamore so they need to go, tree of heaven that i am hoping he will take for paper, a bunch of locust they all need to go, some really big maples and a few elm, and absolutely NO mast producing trees.
I think i am finding out a 50/50 deal for what i am doing is about as fair to both party's as i can expect.

 

[Seabee]

Why are you only interested in doing TSI on 30 of the 110 acres? Having been through this a few times. I would seriously suggest you find a forester that has your interest in mind. Good guy or not that logger is NOT on the same page as you are. What state are you in? My forestor takes 10%, and I have done sales as little as 6500$ in timber. There are a few things I have read in your paragraphs which you want to do that don't really coincide with what TSI stands for. Good luck with your sale.

 

[ruskbuckss]

My forester was paid by the hour, which I actually liked better than a percentage of harvest. The cut I did was a thinning that took out the crowded and junk trees that would not be valuable for future saw logs.(hardwood pulp) The nice big straight trees were left for a future cutting. All aspen were clear cut and these areas are exploding with new growth. My forester had the loggers pull out all the ironwood and balsams that were creeping into the hardwoods. I can't say enough about how less stressful my forester made it for me, I was nervous about the cutting. I learned so much, I thought I knew quite a bit about logging and forest health, but I was wrong. I get the feeling that you are going with just the logger. I hope he does good for you. I remember this one saying" what you don't know can hurt you". I think alot people that have just went with a "trusty logger" and have been happy with the work and money they received, do not realize they have been ripped of and there woods are screwed up for a long long time.

 

[Persimman]

WW, what state are you in? It would help to know how others experiences would apply. If I were to summarize, I'm reading that:
You've used your regional forester.
You're familiar with invasives issues.
You've contacted a consultant.
You're talking about a harvest motivated by management and not $ (cuz there ain't $ there).
You're doing about 1/4 of your land.
You're asking if 50/50 seems fair.
While I agree with those who advocate for a professional consultant, based on what you've presented I think you're fine going with your 50/50 deal on a specific area. You will be pleased to get a lot of work done and have some money for a couple new guns. Maybe a new pink camo outfit for the boss. 50/50 seems to happen pretty often around here. After 5 yrs or so, when you've passed the main benefit of early succession growth, you can take a different approach with your next cutting. Be careful what you plant in the old walnut spots. Some say juglone persists for years; others say forever.
In the past 2 years my wife and I have gone to 4 woods seminars to help educate her in working with her large sibling group regarding Mum's property. The value of a professional consultant is always emphasized. I agree with that but it sounds like you don't see that working out in this case.

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

I can't over emphasize enough a phrase that our local Billionaire has coined. "You get what you inspect, not what you expect". This statement holds true for everything that life throws at you.

 

[bjseiler]

Why are you only interested in doing TSI on 30 of the 110 acres? Having been through this a few times. I would seriously suggest you find a forester that has your interest in mind. Good guy or not that logger is NOT on the same page as you are. What state are you in? My forestor takes 10%, and I have done sales as little as 6500$ in timber. There are a few things I have read in your paragraphs which you want to do that don't really coincide with what TSI stands for. Good luck with your sale.

Can you share your forester's name?

 

[Weed Wacker]

The reason I am only doing the 30 acres is because that's were all the invasive is. I want to get them under control before I open any more canopy. plus I think it makes for better hunting if you have different stages of regeneration at all times.

 

[Apple Junkie]

Your land, your decision. But I'd hire a forester to make sure your objectives met first - timber stand improvement. A logger, no matter how honest, is looking to make as much money in the least amount of time - ya can't blame him. The temptation is to take all the best, high value trees and overlook the less valuable specimens - high grading. At the very minimum, you can contact your state forestry department and usually they will walk your ground and offer their advise, for free. Good luck no matter what you decide.

 

[Weed Wacker]

 

[Weed Wacker]

Above are just some of the junk trees that need to go. I didn't even go into the really bad section.

 

[j-bird]

Just keep in mind the logger is going to have limits as to what he will even take. Most loggers prefer a 12 foot log (some will do 8) and roughly 24" diameter as a minimum. If you have lots of stuff that falls under that - that you really want gone, you may need to consider a clear cut. I was also told that if you want a different tree species in there than is already growing your best bet is a clear cut and then planting as well. I also agree in making sure he takes even the lower valued stuff you want gone.

My biggest concern is the invasives. They can simply explode and take over if allowed. 30 acres is a lot if your having to fight the invasives by hand because you cant get equipment in there. Just make sure you have a very solid and achievable plan for the invasives. Keep in mind most of them will need to be killed with some sort of spray or stump treatment....just cutting them off tends to just piss 'em off and with the newly available sunlight.....you can simply unleash a real monster!

good luck.

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

Clear cut followed by early successional burning. Let the sun in to boost forbs and grasses and burn it off as often as conditions allow.