Do you think Gov. should ban wood stoves?

[wiscwhip]

My little brother mines uranium and processes it into yellowcake that is made into fuel rods. He works at a reclamation facility where they reprocessed already mined ore to extract previously inaccessible uranium particles through newer technology. Biggest threat I see from uranium power generation isn't the process itself, but having a terrorist organization take over one of the reactor facilities and then find a way to use it as a weapon.

 

[Jim Timber]

Geothermal is another option for running a steam powered turbine. Drilling the hole is the most expensive part, after that it's just maintenance.

I don't know why we don't use the earth's core temps more in our society. Even if you're not going deep enough to get "hot" water, you can easily capture 70% or better of the heat needed to remain comfortable, and augment it with a little fossil or wood to get the rest, or use a heat pump and a little electricity.

As long as there's gravity and mass, we'll never run out of geothermal energy.


Going back to my earlier comment - the utility company is not in a contractual agreement with you to be your sole source of electrical power. They can't charge you extra for buying or generating power from someone else, no more than Toyota can charge you extra for your prius because you own a Ford F150. What the outfit in the article I read has done is added a fee to those selling back energy, which is in excess of the gains they've made with their solar installations (or at least steep enough to make it not enticing). This no longer makes the solar cost effective vs just buying all their power from the utility.

Throttling up and down a power plant turbine is not easily done (you don't just flip a switch and get more or less output). My father in law worked 30 years at the Mississippi River plant in Minneapolis until they converted it from coal to nat gas (saving themselves millions in operating costs, and then jacking our rates because gas was more expensive). You also need to do something with the energy produced. You either sell it, or shunt it (turn it into heat). Xcel has been buying Canadian power surplus for decades, because it's cheaper than spinning up their own plants.

 

[wiscwhip]

That is precisely why Xcel wants the Badger Coulee Transmission line built so badly, so they can buy cheap Canadian electricity and sell it in a high dollar market like Madison, WI.:rolleyes: Greed.

 

[Native Hunter]

Native - I just came back to this thread today. When you said " pumped hydro " I assume you meant pumping water uphill and letting gravity flow run the turbines ? Niagara - Mohawk in N.Y. has been doing that for some time. I worked on a power house for Ni-Mo in the 80's and there was insightful discussion on that hydro operation then. ( I was on a nuke - not the hydro. ) Any drive for that ( pumped hydro ) where you are ??

 

[Native Hunter]

Native - I just came back to this thread today. When you said " pumped hydro " I assume you meant pumping water uphill and letting gravity flow run the turbines ? Niagara - Mohawk in N.Y. has been doing that for some time. I worked on a power house for Ni-Mo in the 80's and there was insightful discussion on that hydro operation then. ( I was on a nuke - not the hydro. ) Any drive for that ( pumped hydro ) where you are ??

Yes, that's exactly what I was talking about. You could even use solar energy to pump the water uphill during the day, and then use the turbines at night with the gravity flow just like you said, when solar wasn't available.

There's not a great drive for that yet where I am. Around here its mostly just solar.

There have been a few projects around where landfill gas and methane from chicken manure is being used to run generators. One of the large power producers in this state has several of the landfill gas projects that they own. It's cool but doesn't come even close to meeting their demand.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

Native - Yep, we have the landfill / methane gas fueled turbines here as well. The landfill closest to me has 4 turbines spinning. It doesn't make up for all demand, but the landfill itself and several other customers use the juice. Better than just venting the gas. A landfill up-state from where I live uses the methane to heat a state & Federal prison complex. Why not ?? They're right next to each other - can't get much easier or closer !!

Around here, more nat. gas plants are being built because of the Marcellus shale gas bonanza. I suspect / hear talk of solar arrays along with the gassers at the same locations.

 

[wiscwhip]

Can anyone explain to me why the sewage plants just burn off the methane as opposed to harnessing it for electricity? Our sewer plant has 2 good sized stacks that constantly have a 6'-8' flame blasting out the top. I see this in other places as well.

 

[Native Hunter]

Can anyone explain to me why the sewage plants just burn off the methane as opposed to harnessing it for electricity? Our sewer plant has 2 good sized stacks that constantly have a 6'-8' flame blasting out the top. I see this in other places as well.

wiscwhip, like many things it all comes down to economics. It can be done, but if it isn't being done, it probably isn't cost effective. Recently I heard of a project in Oregon where they were proposing what you are describing. I was able to find the following link a few minutes ago. When you read this, look at all of the tax credits and grants that are being pushed into this to make it possible. This shows that like many things, without the special government help, this project would not be happening.

Also keep in mind that promoting methane as a renewable doesn't set well with a lot of environmentalists. So, methane projects don't get the political push that some of the others do. Whether its just burned off or used to produce electricity, there are some pretty bad toxins released. Methane is not nearly as clean as natural gas and comes with some environmental baggage.

I know I once asked one of the operating engineers at a landfill gas project about costs, and I don't recall the exact figures, but the production cost was well above their coal fired plants.

Anyway, here is the link I was talking about. Costs can change with technology, so you may see more of this in the future.

http://www.bizjournals.com/portland...r-plants-clean-up-their-own-act.html?page=all

 

[wiscwhip]

Thanks Native! Great info, and I totally see your point on the "cost effectiveness" thing. One issue I have though, is that if Uncle Sam would back off on the $37.7 billion it gives out in aid to foreign countries, cost effectiveness wouldn't matter, they could then use that money to pay for many projects like this right here at home. The article said the total investments in the upgrades was $18 million, the govt could pay for an awful lot of upgrades like that with $37.7b.

Sorry about the rant, but it pi$$#$ me off to no end that we will send billions to folks who hate us, but then let our infrastructure go to h#!! and throw environmentally responsible opportunities like harnessing methane for power generation go by the wayside.

 

[Native Hunter]

Thanks Native! Great info, and I totally see your point on the "cost effectiveness" thing. One issue I have though, is that if Uncle Sam would back off on the $37.7 billion it gives out in aid to foreign countries, cost effectiveness wouldn't matter, they could then use that money to pay for many projects like this right here at home. The article said the total investments in the upgrades was $18 million, the govt could pay for an awful lot of upgrades like that with $37.7b.

Sorry about the rant, but it pi$$#$ me off to no end that we will send billions to folks who hate us, but then let our infrastructure go to h#!! and throw environmentally responsible opportunities like harnessing methane for power generation go by the wayside.

LOL, you're preaching to the choir here and will get an amen from me on that!!

I haven't exactly figured out helping people who wants to cut my head off, but it may just be one of my many character flaws.:)

 

[Bowsnbucks]

Just think if we had back in our Treasury coffers all the hundreds of billions of $$$ we've given away to foreign countries over the last 50 years. Especially the 2 - faced ones that hold out their hand on one side and then hold a gun / knife / bomb with the other. It staggers the mind.

Whip on the infrastructure - think how many people could be put to work fixing up roads, bridges, rail systems ( the most cost-efficient, lowest-polluting, fuel saving way to ship things ), electrical grids, water, sewer and underground gas lines. Millions could be put to work and be paying taxes to get deficits down. The nation's infrastructure has been given a " D " grade by the American Society of Civil Engineers latest assessment. Look at all the water & nat. gas lines breaking / blowing up all around the country. What does it take for the PANTS - POLISHERS to understand ??:confused: :mad: Maybe the power outage in D.C. the other day ?????????