CWD conversations that are worth the time to watch

[Mortenson]

Let ehd work on the herd while cwd practices work on the herd. All to save the herd and bring numbers up. Lol. Dont get me wrong, I think biologists in cwd zones are great guys. I think they like their job better than becoming fence painters.

 

[Tangler]

Bill, I hear what you are saying and agree with much of it.

I think multiple things can be true at once:

1. The federal government could screw up a wet dream and they really screwed up with Covid management, waste/fraud and abuse, free speech cancelations, etc in the last 40 years.

2. The scientific community really has lost the faith of the general public in the last 10 years. Covid lockdowns and mandates that were delivered with a condescending pedantic tone: "I know better than you" along with cancel culture silencing discussion of the obvious lab leak hypothesis and the demonization of people who question things that obviously should be questioned . Science is never certain. Scientists should always listen and be open minded and humble. "do no harm" is a hallmark in medicine. Handled extremely poorly.

3. Science (and the scientific method) are hallmarks of what created western civilization and thus (despite 1 & 2 ) I would be a little careful throwing the baby out with the bath water, although I understand the skepticism because our government and our scientific community deserve to have trust lost because of 1 & 2.

4. Have our current scientific community made some mistakes with CWD? Sure, undoubtedly but the quote from Napoleon comes to mind: ""Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence," Napoleon Bonaparte

5. Good video here on the topic. CWD isn't a simple topic. There is a lot of nuance. In full disclosure I have a scientific background so I am undoubtedly biased and more forgiving of deer biologists. (I am often wrong and may be about this. I am still learning)

 

[gjs4]

Perhaps my aging eyes missed it- Does anyone on here live in an area where CWD itself has affected the population in a way you could describe? Legit ask- not baited

 

[SwampCat]

Perhaps my aging eyes missed it- Does anyone on here live in an area where CWD itself has affected the population in a way you could describe? Legit ask- not baited

I dont, but know a guy who lives in NW AR where cwd was first detected. He said their hunting used to be great but now cant hardly see a deer. The five year research effort in that area confirmed his anecdotal evidence - the study area saw deer density as low as one deer per square mile. That area is the ground zero for cwd in AR

 

[SwampCat]

I don’t trust anyone that’s guessing. And that’s all it is when it comes to CWD. It’s all a guess as far as I’m concerned. Sorry that’s just me. I don’t believe global warming is caused by man. I don’t believe we should be sending tax payer dollars to foreign counties. I don’t believe we should be giving able bodied people welfare.

And I don’t believe state agencies who stand to get money from the Feds.

There is cash coming…

“The CWD Research and Management Act would split $70 million annually through fiscal year 2028 on management and research priorities.

This includes $35 million per year for research that focuses on:

• Methods to effectively detect CWD in live and harvested deer and the surrounding environment.

• Best practices for reducing CWD occurrence through sustainable harvest of deer and other cervids.

• Factors contributing to spread of the disease locally, such as animal movement and scavenging.

• Another $35 million per year for management, including surveillance and testing, would prioritize:

• Areas with the highest incidence of CWD.

• Areas responding to new outbreaks of CWD.

• Areas without CWD that show the greatest risk of CWD emerging.

• Jurisdictions demonstrating the greatest financial commitment to managing, monitoring, surveying, and researching CWD.”

Didn’t catch this one??

Best practices for reducing CWD occurrence through sustainable harvest of deer and other cervids.

What is sustainable harvest? Seems to me kill them all isn’t sustainable. What I’ve seen is they cry CWD shoot a boat load of deer, give out way to many CWD tags to dipshits willing to use them, then blame CWD for the lack of deer.

EHD has killed more deer nationwide over the years hands down than CWD has. Yet no emphasis on trying to eradicate it. We know what causes EHD. We know it’s transmitted by a little midge. We know how to kill insects. Yet they do nothing.

Why is that?

When you’re in an area that the state decides all the deer have to be killed to save the deer come pass judgement.

But I’ve been wrong before

The AR CWD research podcast has been posted here somewhere. The head researcher actually recommended that the state needed to INCREASE the doe population in the study area. They had left hunting restrictions as is when the five year study started - just to see what effect hunting was having. Between hunting and cwd deaths, they basically wiped out the herd.

I think that might be the only time where I have heard hunter harvest rates need to be reduced in a cwd zone

 

[BenA]

Does anyone know of an area that had a low population already before CWD was detected there? I know NW Arkansas used to have a high population. It seems like some of these ag regions in MI and WI had high populations. I don’t know of an area where CWD has been detected that has a low population.

 

[Bill]

Bill, I hear what you are saying and agree with much of it.

I think multiple things can be true at once:

1. The federal government could screw up a wet dream and they really screwed up with Covid management, waste/fraud and abuse, free speech cancelations, etc in the last 40 years.

2. The scientific community really has lost the faith of the general public in the last 10 years. Covid lockdowns and mandates that were delivered with a condescending pedantic tone: "I know better than you" along with cancel culture silencing discussion of the obvious lab leak hypothesis and the demonization of people who question things that obviously should be questioned . Science is never certain. Scientists should always listen and be open minded and humble. "do no harm" is a hallmark in medicine. Handled extremely poorly.

3. Science (and the scientific method) are hallmarks of what created western civilization and thus (despite 1 & 2 ) I would be a little careful throwing the baby out with the bath water, although I understand the skepticism because our government and our scientific community deserve to have trust lost because of 1 & 2.

4. Have our current scientific community made some mistakes with CWD? Sure, undoubtedly but the quote from Napoleon comes to mind: ""Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence," Napoleon Bonaparte

5. Good video here on the topic. CWD isn't a simple topic. There is a lot of nuance. In full disclosure I have a scientific background so I am undoubtedly biased and more forgiving of deer biologists. (I am often wrong and may be about this. I am still learning)

I watched his video. His argument is those of us resistant to current policy are those making $ off deer. (Not all by it’s a theme) I get that but don’t fall into that group. Deer cost me a lot of $ with no return other than my own satisfaction.

 

[swat1018]

I don’t trust anyone that’s guessing. And that’s all it is when it comes to CWD. It’s all a guess as far as I’m concerned. Sorry that’s just me. I don’t believe global warming is caused by man. I don’t believe we should be sending tax payer dollars to foreign counties. I don’t believe we should be giving able bodied people welfare.

And I don’t believe state agencies who stand to get money from the Feds.

There is cash coming…

“The CWD Research and Management Act would split $70 million annually through fiscal year 2028 on management and research priorities.

This includes $35 million per year for research that focuses on:

• Methods to effectively detect CWD in live and harvested deer and the surrounding environment.

• Best practices for reducing CWD occurrence through sustainable harvest of deer and other cervids.

• Factors contributing to spread of the disease locally, such as animal movement and scavenging.

• Another $35 million per year for management, including surveillance and testing, would prioritize:

• Areas with the highest incidence of CWD.

• Areas responding to new outbreaks of CWD.

• Areas without CWD that show the greatest risk of CWD emerging.

• Jurisdictions demonstrating the greatest financial commitment to managing, monitoring, surveying, and researching CWD.”

Didn’t catch this one??

Best practices for reducing CWD occurrence through sustainable harvest of deer and other cervids.

What is sustainable harvest? Seems to me kill them all isn’t sustainable. What I’ve seen is they cry CWD shoot a boat load of deer, give out way to many CWD tags to dipshits willing to use them, then blame CWD for the lack of deer.

EHD has killed more deer nationwide over the years hands down than CWD has. Yet no emphasis on trying to eradicate it. We know what causes EHD. We know it’s transmitted by a little midge. We know how to kill insects. Yet they do nothing.

Why is that?

When you’re in an area that the state decides all the deer have to be killed to save the deer come pass judgement.

But I’ve been wrong before

Now it's coming out that MDC is paying tax payers dollars to the National Deer Association to help propagate the CWD mission. If you have to pay them for your support (Over $100K) what did they think about your message before the payday. If it was all on the up-and-up, wouldn't NDA be jumping to support it for free?

 

[Brian662]

Does anyone know of an area that had a low population already before CWD was detected there? I know NW Arkansas used to have a high population. It seems like some of these ag regions in MI and WI had high populations. I don’t know of an area where CWD has been detected that has a low population.

Kansas, it's moving west to east

 

[Bill]

Now it's coming out that MDC is paying tax payers dollars to the National Deer Association to help propagate the CWD mission. If you have to pay them for your support (Over $100K) what did they think about your message before the payday. If it was all on the up-and-up, wouldn't NDA be jumping to support it for free?

NDA is probably hurting for a $ stream. They alienated a lot of members. Just took a quick look and membership cost has been lowered.

Their involvement with MDC hasn’t helped MDC’s cause with me. QDMA/NDA has always been more concerned with income than deer.

 

[gjs4]

Now it's coming out that MDC is paying tax payers dollars to the National Deer Association to help propagate the CWD mission. If you have to pay them for your support (Over $100K) what did they think about your message before the payday. If it was all on the up-and-up, wouldn't NDA be jumping to support it for free?

I remember when the NDA first came out and someone said something to the effect of "this isnt anything like the qdma....its a the private side public outreach of game agencies...". Made zero sense at the time. Total fact.

I got into it with one of their most famous biologists after publicly going after a state one for their gross inaccuracy with data (acquisition methods specifically). They want to be in a position having reference numbers to validate the agenda they're prioritizing and will compose and orchestrate that as such. Their response will always be "your response is anecdotal to observation but the numbers paint a different picture"...and most of us are not n the know on how or where those numbers were acquired AND back down to our observations do hold value for the area we are in. Ill give the HUNTR podcast guys credit for this one that most (if not all) game agencies want as many deer to be killed as possible. Even IA and other big buck states.

 

[Telemark]

Let ehd work on the herd while cwd practices work on the herd. All to save the herd and bring numbers up. Lol. Dont get me wrong, I think biologists in cwd zones are great guys. I think they like their job better than becoming fence painters.

Didn't they already determine the way to fight EHD was by targeting the midges?

 

[BenA]

CWD prions are able to be accumulated in plants like corn, soybeans, clover, alfalfa, etc.

Also, it can be found and transported in various water sources waterholes, ponds, creeks, and rivers.

I'm not sure how prevalence rates can be controlled knowing that. It seems like it's going to be everywhere eventually, albeit slower with lower populations.

 

[356]

CWD prions are able to be accumulated in plants like corn, soybeans, clover, alfalfa, etc.

Also, it can be found and transported in various water sources waterholes, ponds, creeks, and rivers.

I'm not sure how prevalence rates can be controlled knowing that. It seems like it's going to be everywhere eventually, albeit slower with lower populations.

While the prions do accumulate as you note, it takes a threshold exposure to trigger CWD. Once prevalence rates are 5%, then control is mathmatically unlikely. Therefore, the goal is to keep prevalence rates down (primarily with increased harvest, especially in CWD areas).

The worst thing hunters can do is avoid hunting CWD zones. I've started to enjoy the Old Biologist channel, which provides a hunter/biologist perspective that is refreshing.

 

[BenA]

While the prions do accumulate as you note, it takes a threshold exposure to trigger CWD. Once prevalence rates are 5%, then control is mathmatically unlikely. Therefore, the goal is to keep prevalence rates down (primarily with increased harvest, especially in CWD areas).

The worst thing hunters can do is avoid hunting CWD zones. I've started to enjoy the Old Biologist channel, which provides a hunter/biologist perspective that is refreshing.

My reason for bringing that up, is that we know deer are likely to visit these areas. Even in low population areas, the entire herd can be exposed through these vectors. No matter if there are 5 or 50 deer/sqmi, these areas are focal points for the area herd. Do we start testing seeds for prions before planting? Do we stop putting in waterholes? Do we stop planting seeds? At what point do we just say, it's going to spread, what are we accomplishing by slowing it down?

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

My reason for bringing that up, is that we know deer are likely to visit these areas. Even in low population areas, the entire herd can be exposed through these vectors. No matter if there are 5 or 50 deer/sqmi, these areas are focal points for the area herd. Do we start testing seeds for prions before planting? Do we stop putting in waterholes? Do we stop planting seeds? At what point do we just say, it's going to spread, what are we accomplishing by slowing it down?

Agreed. The genie is out of the bottle. Let the chips fall where they may now

 

[Turkish]

what are we accomplishing by slowing it down?

I always assumed the point was buying time.

 

[BenA]

I always assumed the point was buying time.

For a cure? No prion diseases have a cure yet, and the livestock and human variants have been researched much more than CWD. I think it's possible for a cure, and I am hopeful. Once prevalence hits a certain point though, populations decline. Maybe we should just let it get there sooner.

 

[Turkish]

Bill, I hear what you are saying and agree with much of it.

I think multiple things can be true at once:

1. The federal government could screw up a wet dream and they really screwed up with Covid management, waste/fraud and abuse, free speech cancelations, etc in the last 40 years.

2. The scientific community really has lost the faith of the general public in the last 10 years. Covid lockdowns and mandates that were delivered with a condescending pedantic tone: "I know better than you" along with cancel culture silencing discussion of the obvious lab leak hypothesis and the demonization of people who question things that obviously should be questioned . Science is never certain. Scientists should always listen and be open minded and humble. "do no harm" is a hallmark in medicine. Handled extremely poorly.

3. Science (and the scientific method) are hallmarks of what created western civilization and thus (despite 1 & 2 ) I would be a little careful throwing the baby out with the bath water, although I understand the skepticism because our government and our scientific community deserve to have trust lost because of 1 & 2.

4. Have our current scientific community made some mistakes with CWD? Sure, undoubtedly but the quote from Napoleon comes to mind: ""Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence," Napoleon Bonaparte

5. Good video here on the topic. CWD isn't a simple topic. There is a lot of nuance. In full disclosure I have a scientific background so I am undoubtedly biased and more forgiving of deer biologists. (I am often wrong and may be about this. I am still learning)

I’ve been following him too. While I agree with him on everything I’ve listened to, he’s too old fashioned for the deer hunters of today (and this forum). He was the MDWFP deer program coordinator when they legalized baiting; he left very soon after. He’s very strong in his opinions.

 

[Turkish]

For a cure? No prion diseases have a cure yet, and the livestock and human variants have been researched much more than CWD. I think it's possible for a cure, and I am hopeful. Once prevalence hits a certain point though, populations decline. Maybe we should just let it get there sooner.

If you were king for a day, you’d promote it?

If the entire state of MS or AL looked like NW AR, what do you think would happen to their state wildlife budget? I’m pretty libertarian, but I have to draw a line somewhere.