The Forbidden Apple Tree Knowledge Thread

[Bowsnbucks]

I have trees on Antonovka that fruited within the first 3 years - crabs. All-Winter-Hangover, Winter Wildlife, Dolgo, Kerr.

I looked up a few rootstock charts and Antonovka is listed as a seedling rootstock. P-18 wasn't designated as a seedling rootstock. FWIW.
Our trees on Antonovka are all growing really well in our location with clayish-loam soil. Our first 2 trees on P-18 are coming this spring - 1 Goldrush and 1 Enterprise. Interested to see how they do.

 

[cavey]

We have the original Connells apple orchard a mile from my land. Connell Red is the tree Bill Connell brought to the world. I grew up eating them fresh in the families commercial Orchard... sadly it has since closed and the thousands of trees still there are in neglect and slowly dying off. I have tasted Connell Red's from modern orchards and they do not taste the same as those original trees in my backyard (call it just recollection but I think it is more than just that)... same goes for the Macintosh apple we picked from the old small family orchards around door county. I realize grafting / cloning of the originals is supposed to result in an identical tree but I have to believe that the factory like propagation off trees and the further from the original plant we get there is still a chance of some variation to occur in the wood we cut our scions from. And I realize, soils, water, other environmental stressor's play into effect... But as with disease and growth changes I have some questions as to how much what we do on the other side of the scion effects the end flavor of the fruit as well.

 

[DLH]

I think you are onto something others have noticed this as well going back several years.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/elizapples.com/2016/12/04/rootstocks-do-they-impact-flavor/amp/

 

[Native Hunter]

We have the original Connells apple orchard a mile from my land. Connell Red is the tree Bill Connell brought to the world. I grew up eating them fresh in the families commercial Orchard... sadly it has since closed and the thousands of trees still there are in neglect and slowly dying off. I have tasted Connell Red's from modern orchards and they do not taste the same as those original trees in my backyard (call it just recollection but I think it is more than just that)... same goes for the Macintosh apple we picked from the old small family orchards around door county. I realize grafting / cloning of the originals is supposed to result in an identical tree but I have to believe that the factory like propagation off trees and the further from the original plant we get there is still a chance of some variation to occur in the wood we cut our scions from. And I realize, soils, water, other environmental stressor's play into effect... But as with disease and growth changes I have some questions as to how much what we do on the other side of the scion effects the end flavor of the fruit as well.

Cavey, I was getting ready to post a link for you on this subject, but noticed that DLH has already posted it. It is a very good read on the subject of how taste can be changed. Let us know what you think after you read it.

 

[cavey]

I wish I was a more knowledgeable expert with a test orchard to play with and that time was an unlimited and compressible thing... oh the comparisons we could make. I do not doubt the article a bit (either one) and all of it is good thought provoking information and there are others here with far more knowledge than me to chime in. I have read other articles were growers have said the same thing - the trees are not what they used to be. Maybe some of it is nonsense but I still believe there is the potential for variability in any living organism... I do not doubt scion from a young tree could be ever so slightly different from scion gathered from the same tree decades later and maybe just that minute difference can be compounded overtime. Those differences when mass cloned especially if being selective of the better trees in ones orchard almost have to pass on something different from a poorer growing tree of the same name. I would expect sap moving up from the roots from one type of rootstock to maybe be quite different than that of another root stock especially in regards to a sweet dessert apple and that of a bitter crab. That alone almost has to impart some taste difference. I dont know food for thought.
It would be cool to walk over to the old orchard and find the grand daddy old connell red and find a recently planted one and grab an apple from each and taste to see if there is a difference.

and I have to add it would be cool to do a bunch of differing rootstock types to apple grafts to see if there is a real difference.

 

[Native Hunter]

I wish I was a more knowledgeable expert with a test orchard to play with and that time was an unlimited and compressible thing... oh the comparisons we could make. I do not doubt the article a bit (either one) and all of it is good thought provoking information and there are others here with far more knowledge than me to chime in. I have read other articles were growers have said the same thing - the trees are not what they used to be. Maybe some of it is nonsense but I still believe there is the potential for variability in any living organism... I do not doubt scion from a young tree could be ever so slightly different from scion gathered from the same tree decades later and maybe just that minute difference can be compounded overtime. Those differences when mass cloned especially if being selective of the better trees in ones orchard almost have to pass on something different from a poorer growing tree of the same name. I would expect sap moving up from the roots from one type of rootstock to maybe be quite different than that of another root stock especially in regards to a sweet dessert apple and that of a bitter crab. That alone almost has to impart some taste difference. I dont know food for thought.
It would be cool to walk over to the old orchard and find the grand daddy old connell red and find a recently planted one and grab an apple from each and taste to see if there is a difference.

and I have to add it would be cool to do a bunch of differing rootstock types to apple grafts to see if there is a real difference.

LOL, I agree wholeheartedly. PS: In case you have not been diagnosed before - I can tell you have the "Apple Bug" bad like some of the rest of us here.

 

[Native Hunter]

This is a good article that illustrates just how bad that fireblight can be and how that some northerners may be seeing more of it than they did in the past:

https://www.traverseticker.com/news/northern-michigans-apple-orchards-at-risk/

To me this just reinforces how I've felt for a long time. Choosing DR varieties is important.

 

[Barndog56]

This past spring I went the cheap route and just bought 100 seedling apples to use as my rootstocks. I'll be moving them from my nursery to their permanent spots this next week or so.

Would you recommend planting the grafting union below ground in an attempt to get the scion varieties to root themselves?

 

[Native Hunter]

This past spring I went the cheap route and just bought 100 seedling apples to use as my rootstocks. I'll be moving them from my nursery to their permanent spots this next week or so.

Would you recommend planting the grafting union below ground in an attempt to get the scion varieties to root themselves?

That would be a good way to get as close as possible to the attributes of the original tree. You might also be fine with the other rootstock - no one would be able to know until you try it. It could be as good, worse or better than the original.

 

[Native Hunter]

I recommend that everyone interested in apples read the following article which quotes Kerik D. Cox, a plant pathologist who has studied the disease of fireblight for a decade at Cornell College of Agriculture and Life Sciences. Some other experts, such as George Sundin at Michigan State are quoted as well.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/02/...ads-northward-threatening-apple-orchards.html

However, if you don't want to read the whole thing, I have summarized what I feel are the most important parts:

• Fireblight is spreading to places where it had not been seen before. Examples are New York’s Champlain Valley and parts of Maine. Many places in the north are now experiencing what they thought was only a southern problem.
• At places where the disease was hardly ever thought about in times past, entire orchards have been destroyed in recent years.
• What I have said earlier in this thread about dwarfing and semi-dwarfing trees being more of an issues is being echoed by others. Example: In this artice George Sundin was quoted as saying, “...The old-style trees that we used to grow were big and had tons of branches and the bacteria couldn’t move through the tree very well...In these new trees, “the branches are smaller and it’s a short distance from the branch to the tree and down to the roots.”

So there you have it. Basically, when choosing apple varieties, resistance to FB should be a major concern, and rootstock should be a concern as well. I think this article certainly backs up a lot of what I have posted earlier in this thread concerning my theories.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

Thanks, Native!! Good info. Your advice to look for FB resistant trees is spot-on.
Not tryin to hi-jack, but in the same vein of changing manifestations ………...

I know that some folks don't believe in climate change and all the political hoo-haw that goes with that. But when I was a kid, we slept out in sleeping bags on the ground in fields and woods and NEVER got ticks. Nobody even talked about ticks back then in northern Pa. where I grew up. Now, ticks are abundant and out all "winter" long there. We also used to have COLD winters and lots of snow on the ground most of the winter. Now, we're lucky to get snow at all in hunting season, and January / February temps. up there are commonly in the mid-40's to mid-50's. Fairly common to see 60's in January. White birch trees, which like colder climates, are disappearing from the north-central mountains of Pa. where they used to be very common. A good example (bug-wise) for birches is the bronze birch borer, which were not an issue in northern Pa. in the past. Now, they are entrenched in the northern mountains and they're killing the remaining white birch trees. So it's not surprising to me at all that bugs and diseases that typically favored and flourished in warmer climates are advancing northward. When you have dandelions blossoming in the lawn in December, how many visual proofs does one need to realize that things are NOT the same??

Off-topic, but many insurance companies that write policies for coastal areas are raising rates at a faster pace because of rising sea levels and stronger/more numerous catastrophic storms. The ins. companies admit those reasons in the press. Do you suppose they're stupid …………. or ahead of the curve???

 

[Native Hunter]

Thanks, Native!! Good info. Your advice to look for FB resistant trees is spot-on.
Not tryin to hi-jack, but in the same vein of changing manifestations ………...

I know that some folks don't believe in climate change and all the political hoo-haw that goes with that. But when I was a kid, we slept out in sleeping bags on the ground in fields and woods and NEVER got ticks. Nobody even talked about ticks back then in northern Pa. where I grew up. Now, ticks are abundant and out all "winter" long there. We also used to have COLD winters and lots of snow on the ground most of the winter. Now, we're lucky to get snow at all in hunting season, and January / February temps. up there are commonly in the mid-40's to mid-50's. Fairly common to see 60's in January. White birch trees, which like colder climates, are disappearing from the north-central mountains of Pa. where they used to be very common. A good example (bug-wise) for birches is the bronze birch borer, which were not an issue in northern Pa. in the past. Now, they are entrenched in the northern mountains and they're killing the remaining white birch trees. So it's not surprising to me at all that bugs and diseases that typically favored and flourished in warmer climates are advancing northward. When you have dandelions blossoming in the lawn in December, how many visual proofs does one need to realize that things are NOT the same??

Off-topic, but many insurance companies that write policies for coastal areas are raising rates at a faster pace because of rising sea levels and stronger/more numerous catastrophic storms. The ins. companies admit those reasons in the press. Do you suppose they're stupid …………. or ahead of the curve???

That song about Ocean Front property in Arizona may end up being true.....

 

[TreeDaddy]

Thanks, Native!! Good info. Your advice to look for FB resistant trees is spot-on.
Not tryin to hi-jack, but in the same vein of changing manifestations ………...

I know that some folks don't believe in climate change and all the political hoo-haw that goes with that. But when I was a kid, we slept out in sleeping bags on the ground in fields and woods and NEVER got ticks. Nobody even talked about ticks back then in northern Pa. where I grew up. Now, ticks are abundant and out all "winter" long there. We also used to have COLD winters and lots of snow on the ground most of the winter. Now, we're lucky to get snow at all in hunting season, and January / February temps. up there are commonly in the mid-40's to mid-50's. Fairly common to see 60's in January. White birch trees, which like colder climates, are disappearing from the north-central mountains of Pa. where they used to be very common. A good example (bug-wise) for birches is the bronze birch borer, which were not an issue in northern Pa. in the past. Now, they are entrenched in the northern mountains and they're killing the remaining white birch trees. So it's not surprising to me at all that bugs and diseases that typically favored and flourished in warmer climates are advancing northward. When you have dandelions blossoming in the lawn in December, how many visual proofs does one need to realize that things are NOT the same??

Off-topic, but many insurance companies that write policies for coastal areas are raising rates at a faster pace because of rising sea levels and stronger/more numerous catastrophic storms. The ins. companies admit those reasons in the press. Do you suppose they're stupid …………. or ahead of the curve???

How long before the feds outlaw the plow and mandate no till to make us all carbon cowboys?

bill

 

[Prof.Kent]

Thanks, Native!! Good info. Your advice to look for FB resistant trees is spot-on.
Not tryin to hi-jack, but in the same vein of changing manifestations ………...

I know that some folks don't believe in climate change and all the political hoo-haw that goes with that. But when I was a kid, we slept out in sleeping bags on the ground in fields and woods and NEVER got ticks. Nobody even talked about ticks back then in northern Pa. where I grew up. Now, ticks are abundant and out all "winter" long there. We also used to have COLD winters and lots of snow on the ground most of the winter. Now, we're lucky to get snow at all in hunting season, and January / February temps. up there are commonly in the mid-40's to mid-50's. Fairly common to see 60's in January. White birch trees, which like colder climates, are disappearing from the north-central mountains of Pa. where they used to be very common. A good example (bug-wise) for birches is the bronze birch borer, which were not an issue in northern Pa. in the past. Now, they are entrenched in the northern mountains and they're killing the remaining white birch trees. So it's not surprising to me at all that bugs and diseases that typically favored and flourished in warmer climates are advancing northward. When you have dandelions blossoming in the lawn in December, how many visual proofs does one need to realize that things are NOT the same??

Off-topic, but many insurance companies that write policies for coastal areas are raising rates at a faster pace because of rising sea levels and stronger/more numerous catastrophic storms. The ins. companies admit those reasons in the press. Do you suppose they're stupid …………. or ahead of the curve???

Climate changes all the time. Climates are cyclic. Monthly, yearly, generationally, by the century, etc. In the 1000-1100 AD Greenland's coastal region was inhabited. Much warmer back then. Before that is was covered in ice as it is now. No one denies climate change, the question is does mankind cause it. I don't believe so. If mankind doesn't cause it then mankind can't change it. Leftists want control of everything so they espouse drastic measures to fix a problem they can't. Their solution always includes drastic shifts in power with the populace relinquishing their wealth and freedoms (economic) to "save the planet". Governments aren't the solution to our problems. Governments are the problem.

 

[g squared 23]

Thanks, Native!! Good info. Your advice to look for FB resistant trees is spot-on.
Not tryin to hi-jack, but in the same vein of changing manifestations ………...

I know that some folks don't believe in climate change and all the political hoo-haw that goes with that. But when I was a kid, we slept out in sleeping bags on the ground in fields and woods and NEVER got ticks. Nobody even talked about ticks back then in northern Pa. where I grew up. Now, ticks are abundant and out all "winter" long there. We also used to have COLD winters and lots of snow on the ground most of the winter. Now, we're lucky to get snow at all in hunting season, and January / February temps. up there are commonly in the mid-40's to mid-50's. Fairly common to see 60's in January. White birch trees, which like colder climates, are disappearing from the north-central mountains of Pa. where they used to be very common. A good example (bug-wise) for birches is the bronze birch borer, which were not an issue in northern Pa. in the past. Now, they are entrenched in the northern mountains and they're killing the remaining white birch trees. So it's not surprising to me at all that bugs and diseases that typically favored and flourished in warmer climates are advancing northward. When you have dandelions blossoming in the lawn in December, how many visual proofs does one need to realize that things are NOT the same??

Off-topic, but many insurance companies that write policies for coastal areas are raising rates at a faster pace because of rising sea levels and stronger/more numerous catastrophic storms. The ins. companies admit those reasons in the press. Do you suppose they're stupid …………. or ahead of the curve???

Climate changes all the time. Climates are cyclic. Monthly, yearly, generationally, by the century, etc. In the 1000-1100 AD Greenland's coastal region was inhabited. Much warmer back then. Before that is was covered in ice as it is now. No one denies climate change, the question is does mankind cause it. I don't believe so. If mankind doesn't cause it then mankind can't change it. Leftists want control of everything so they espouse drastic measures to fix a problem they can't. Their solution always includes drastic shifts in power with the populace relinquishing their wealth and freedoms (economic) to "save the planet". Governments aren't the solution to our problems. Governments are the problem.

I tried and tried but the tapatalk app only let me “like” this post once. Can the mods do something about that? Maybe add a “super-like” option or something?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[H20fwler]

I don’t know how I missed this thread...thanks for posting and the great read Native!

 

[Native Hunter]

I don’t know how I missed this thread...thanks for posting and the great read Native!

I'm an easy person to overlook.....

 

[TreeDaddy]

Climate changes all the time. Climates are cyclic. Monthly, yearly, generationally, by the century, etc. In the 1000-1100 AD Greenland's coastal region was inhabited. Much warmer back then. Before that is was covered in ice as it is now. No one denies climate change, the question is does mankind cause it. I don't believe so. If mankind doesn't cause it then mankind can't change it. Leftists want control of everything so they espouse drastic measures to fix a problem they can't. Their solution always includes drastic shifts in power with the populace relinquishing their wealth and freedoms (economic) to "save the planet". Governments aren't the solution to our problems. Governments are the problem.

where is that super like button g squared 23 was talking about?

bill

 

[Bowsnbucks]

Prof. Kent - Has historical climate change happened at such a rapid pace as it has since the industrial revolution?? Historically, previous climate shifts have happened over thousands or millions of years, not in 200 years. IT'S THE PACE of this change !!! When live TV cameras show thick smog over big cities globally, and especially in China these days where vehicles emit tons of pollutants - is that FAKE??? Do scientific measuring instruments have a bias?? Every global scientist isn't a "leftist" either.

I find it REALLY IRONIC that for guys who love to hunt, fish, plant crops for income or critters, and do everything outdoors - taking such a carefree, cavalier attitude toward the environment and it's care seems counter to all we "LOVE" ??? What about the guys who say there aren't enough deer? God put them here for us to use ….. so SHOOT 'EM. Conservation? Another "leftist" idea???

So should we continue to use plastic EVERYTHING and have it build up in floating islands that cover miles in the oceans?? Maybe the plastic and other garbage that have been found in fish of every variety were planted there by "leftists"?? Are millions of fish that wash up dead on beaches - from whales to dolphins to herring to cod to ......… name it - a sign of a healthy environment??? Red tides showing up all around the globe that kill millions of fish, algae blooms that need warmer temperatures to survive and flourish, show up where previously it was too cool to occur. Slashing and burning millions of acres of Amazon rain forest is probably a smart thing to do?? Maybe this is all a "leftist" hoax. These things aren't really occurring. Fake TV and satellite images. Maybe these things are healthy and good.

But get ready for more & more neighbors inland, because sea levels ARE RISING. Our own U.S. military has known that for the last 30 to 40 years because plans have been in the works for moving some of our bases due to that rise. When military base roads are going underwater, and buildings/equipment have to be - are being - moved, I guess it's because of a "leftist" plot??? Fake water on the roads/floors??

Can we get past the infant-style name calling as well?? Leftist - rightist ...……… how about prudent, common sense-ist?? Are we smart & prudent ………….. or ego-driven, name-calling, un-caring dolts??? Why does a farmer put manure on his fields??? Because it's SMART to keep his soil healthy and full of good nutrients, right?? So if we want to pass a livable earth on to our kids & grandkids, where they can eat fish from the oceans safely, drink clean water & breathe somewhat(?) clean air, doesn't it make sense to take care of what the Good Lord has given to us humans??

I will NEVER APOLOGIZE for caring about our environment. Even simple-minded critters don't fill their own nests/burrows/dens with their own waste products - but we do.

I hope when my time comes and I stand before Almighty God, he doesn't say to me, "I gave you a brain & eyes. Why didn't you use them?"

 

[Barndog56]