cuttings - help a rookie out
- Thread starter j-bird
- Start date
I planted Red Osier Dogwoods that Stuart sent me from WI. They aren't even in my range down here in the Ozarks, but they grew just fine. The key is planting through a moisture barrier like black plastic or Lumite.
I did mean NOT all plants can grow through black plastic.... it must have been a lysdexic moment. ;-)
The key is getting a good ground cover in place, then you can take cuttings and plant them the same day without having to dig a hole. I have also soaked cuttings until they grew root hairs. They're called rooted cuttings. If you soak cutting be careful or you'll be digging. Planting cuttings should be easy and I plant hundreds in one day.
Cuttings can be mixed and matched. Since Hybrid Polar (HP) and Hybrid Willow (HW) will eventually need a 15' spacing, they can be planed with shrubs. For example one HP.... one dogwood... another dogwood, HP.... dogwood...
I also plant bare root seedlings along the edge of Black Plastic and Lumite. For example, if I want an instant screen I'll plant HP or HW, but I'll plant pine, spruce or cedar on the edge to eventually form a year round screen. If I you just want to replace HP with a better tree, plant oak on the edge of black Plastic/Lumite.
If you've never planted cuttings before, John is a pro and will walk you through the process.
I did mean NOT all plants can grow through black plastic.... it must have been a lysdexic moment. ;-)
The key is getting a good ground cover in place, then you can take cuttings and plant them the same day without having to dig a hole. I have also soaked cuttings until they grew root hairs. They're called rooted cuttings. If you soak cutting be careful or you'll be digging. Planting cuttings should be easy and I plant hundreds in one day.
Cuttings can be mixed and matched. Since Hybrid Polar (HP) and Hybrid Willow (HW) will eventually need a 15' spacing, they can be planed with shrubs. For example one HP.... one dogwood... another dogwood, HP.... dogwood...
I also plant bare root seedlings along the edge of Black Plastic and Lumite. For example, if I want an instant screen I'll plant HP or HW, but I'll plant pine, spruce or cedar on the edge to eventually form a year round screen. If I you just want to replace HP with a better tree, plant oak on the edge of black Plastic/Lumite.
If you've never planted cuttings before, John is a pro and will walk you through the process.
There too many types of willow to mention. A Hybrid Willow is to willow as Hybrid Poplar is to poplar. For starters, HP and HW are clones from a male tree, so they can't reproduce, #2 they grow like Jack's Magic Beans. A HW doesn't weep, it grows upright wide and high. I planted some from whips in 2009 and cut most of them down in 2014 because they were shading out oaks. They were 25-30 feet tall and had a 10 -12 foot stump. They're densely limbed and form a wall in 2-3 years down hear, but will grow slower in MN.
Taking cuttings from one year old trees. I cut down one year old trees to make cuttings all the time. By the end of one growing season you won't hardly notice the difference in size between cut and un cut trees. In fact I prefer cuttings from one year trees that look like cane poles because they're thick and straight.
Taking cuttings from one year old trees. I cut down one year old trees to make cuttings all the time. By the end of one growing season you won't hardly notice the difference in size between cut and un cut trees. In fact I prefer cuttings from one year trees that look like cane poles because they're thick and straight.
j-bird
Moderator
Help me understand the function of the plastic. My experiance with plastic is to prevent weeds (mulched beds), but would it not prevent water from reaching the cutting roots as well? Wouldn't some sort of weed barrier that prevents weeds but allows the passage of water be better? I use this type of weed barrier on my fruit trees with gravel on top and it works very well.
j-bird
Moderator
So it shades the weeds and traps the moisture in the ground - ok. So you get a double wammy so to speak. I have a lighter soil so I will go the plastic route.
Any "tricks" to securing the plastic? I have visions of long streamers of plastic flapping in the breeze!
Do you do/suggest any site prep before putting the plastic down?
Any "tricks" to securing the plastic? I have visions of long streamers of plastic flapping in the breeze!
Do you do/suggest any site prep before putting the plastic down?
j-bird
Moderator
Thank you! I will shop for some plastic now and hopefully find it on clearance someplace instead of waiting until spring -I need to find some kiddie pools as well for water holes. Yep - look like a moron shopping for pools and landscape plastic in October!!! I've done dumber things.....just ask my wife!
Moisture moves in the soil. If you water one square foot for a few minutes, the moisture will spread through osmosis and gravity, so rain will get under the plastic. But rain isn't where Black plastic and Lumite collects most of it's moisture. In the subsoil and way down deep, moisture is constantly evaporating toward the surface, where it's trapped by Black Plastic and Lumite. As I drove I-35 through Iowa I saw what appeared to be Lumite or Black Plastic in miles long strips for planting wind brakes from cuttings, exactly the way I plant mine. Some conservation districts in the Dakotas specify that Lumite be used for conservation planting of seedlings.
To keep plastic down, lay it before it snows, and by Spring it will be stuck to the mud.... depending on the soil. In sandy soil or areas with high wind I use rocks, small logs, T-posts, etc., to weight the plastic down. I also pin it down with high tensile electric fence wire, I cut to length and bend individual as they're used. High tensile wire staples are springy and will expand after they're placed, so they don't pull straight back out.
To prevent lengths of plastic from flying in the wind I plant 25-30 foot strips in a pattern like this: ______ _______ ______ _______. Plastic that's stapled down will come loose in a zipper effect. So buy using smaller lengths the wind cant loosen one part and eventually lift up a long length, plus 100 feet of plastic can be used to cover 150 feet by spacing the plastic out. The spaces will fill in because the trees will eventually need 10-15 spacing as they mature.
So lay the plastic early, staple, weight down, and plant 25-30 foot strips. Stuart needs to weigh in here because I'm in a warmer climate and don't know what would happen to plastic at -40. I do know that mine is fine at 10 degrees
To prevent lengths of plastic from flying in the wind I plant 25-30 foot strips in a pattern like this: ______ _______ ______ _______. Plastic that's stapled down will come loose in a zipper effect. So buy using smaller lengths the wind cant loosen one part and eventually lift up a long length, plus 100 feet of plastic can be used to cover 150 feet by spacing the plastic out. The spaces will fill in because the trees will eventually need 10-15 spacing as they mature.
So lay the plastic early, staple, weight down, and plant 25-30 foot strips. Stuart needs to weigh in here because I'm in a warmer climate and don't know what would happen to plastic at -40. I do know that mine is fine at 10 degrees
j-bird
Moderator
I want screens and cover (different applications for different locations). I tend to see the HP as becoming more a row of broom sticks, where the HW would tend to produce more of a bush - is this accurate? I am also thinking the HP will grow more in height than in width, while the HW will do more of the opposite and try to grow out more so than up -is that fairly accurate?
The reason I ask is that these growth habits may dictate my selection as well as orientation of planting. I may use a combination of both.
What sort of life span should we expcet from these HP & HW? Normally fast growing trees are not very long lived trees.
Sorry for all the questions I just see planting trees as a long term investment (not always monitary) and I want to make sure I understand what I am getting into. I don't want to be 3 or 5 years into it and realize I'm not going to get the desired result -or worse that I created some huge issue.
The reason I ask is that these growth habits may dictate my selection as well as orientation of planting. I may use a combination of both.
What sort of life span should we expcet from these HP & HW? Normally fast growing trees are not very long lived trees.
Sorry for all the questions I just see planting trees as a long term investment (not always monitary) and I want to make sure I understand what I am getting into. I don't want to be 3 or 5 years into it and realize I'm not going to get the desired result -or worse that I created some huge issue.
j-bird
Moderator
Just from some of my own digging (native trees to me):
Looks like silver maple, sugar maple, boxelder, cottonwood, red mulberry, black walnut, american sycamore, common hackberry and yellow/tulip poplar are all able to be propigated via cuttings per the site brushpile posted. Oaks, ash and Hickories don't seem to be ale though. Red maple was not listed - which surprised me as the other maples are. Haven't gotten into looking at shrubs yet.
I may have stumbled onto another addiction - I'm blaming you guys!!!
Looks like silver maple, sugar maple, boxelder, cottonwood, red mulberry, black walnut, american sycamore, common hackberry and yellow/tulip poplar are all able to be propigated via cuttings per the site brushpile posted. Oaks, ash and Hickories don't seem to be ale though. Red maple was not listed - which surprised me as the other maples are. Haven't gotten into looking at shrubs yet.
I may have stumbled onto another addiction - I'm blaming you guys!!!
j-bird
Moderator
I would think the root system would not have enough time to develop to the point of being able to survive the impending freezing temps - just my 2 cents worth. Especially considering that the frost line in northern areas is several feet down. I could b totallywrong, but tha twould at least be my initial thought on it.
Bill
Administrator
J-bird
Your correct hybrids MAY not live past 20 years. Not sure of the life expectancy of the HP or HW. Somewhere in your screening should be a row of pines. By the time and if the hybrids die the pines will be grown.
As for bushy stuff vs tall stuff my experience is HP also gets very bush like if you cut it off at ground level. Which you will be doing after the Bucks rub them :)
If you want a willow that is a true bush check out Big Rocks dappled willows. They are a true bush 10x10ish
As for die off of bedding area and cover I'm not concerned with that. I want my hybrids to kill off the grasses under them so the birds can plant all sorts of trees for me. And I always mix trees and shrubs.
Browndog,
Now is a bit early to plant. I put elderberry cuttings in mid November a few years ago when I was sure they dormant and wouldn't sprout til spring. They did OK
Not sure if any other types would make it but I suspect they would as long as you didn't get a warm early spring and then a hard freeze.
Your correct hybrids MAY not live past 20 years. Not sure of the life expectancy of the HP or HW. Somewhere in your screening should be a row of pines. By the time and if the hybrids die the pines will be grown.
As for bushy stuff vs tall stuff my experience is HP also gets very bush like if you cut it off at ground level. Which you will be doing after the Bucks rub them :)
If you want a willow that is a true bush check out Big Rocks dappled willows. They are a true bush 10x10ish
As for die off of bedding area and cover I'm not concerned with that. I want my hybrids to kill off the grasses under them so the birds can plant all sorts of trees for me. And I always mix trees and shrubs.
Browndog,
Now is a bit early to plant. I put elderberry cuttings in mid November a few years ago when I was sure they dormant and wouldn't sprout til spring. They did OK
Not sure if any other types would make it but I suspect they would as long as you didn't get a warm early spring and then a hard freeze.
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j-bird
Moderator
There you go - I need to just shut up and listen more!
Bill -I hope I get other trees to fill in beyond my cuttings as well, I just figured the cutting would give me a jump start on the cover aspect. For the screens I am looking at the miscanthus for a long term solution/combination.
Bill -I hope I get other trees to fill in beyond my cuttings as well, I just figured the cutting would give me a jump start on the cover aspect. For the screens I am looking at the miscanthus for a long term solution/combination.
Bill
Administrator
MG next to trees may not be the best option. If the trees shade the MG to much it will fall over in the early fall.
For that I'd use Sudan sourgum or Egypian wheat while the MG matures.
sandbur
5 year old buck +
I have recycled silage bag material from dairymen. What I use has a dark side and a light side. It is used in -40 degree weather and works just as well on the ground. Cold does not hurt it.
John sells a large variety of HP. I seem to remember him talking about a Bucky variety that tends to be more bushy. Look his website over.
I want to try some sandbar willow in black plastic. I like the growth form of that willow and feel it somewhat competes with reed canary.
I have seen deer rise out of a bed of sandbar willow in RC. Add a spruce or two and it should be better.
John sells a large variety of HP. I seem to remember him talking about a Bucky variety that tends to be more bushy. Look his website over.
I want to try some sandbar willow in black plastic. I like the growth form of that willow and feel it somewhat competes with reed canary.
I have seen deer rise out of a bed of sandbar willow in RC. Add a spruce or two and it should be better.
John-W-WI
Administrator
Sorry I'm so late to the game.... I'll do my best to catch up, I'm sure I'll miss something. Feel free to remind me if I left you out :)
I wouldn't do anything less than 6' x 6' squares. Weeds will rob all of the moisture and sunlight if they are too small. My preference is to do 6' x 15-20' if you want to do smaller patches. It's a game of edges, don't let the weeds win. I generally don't recommend cuttings on sandy soil.
Deer WILL eat them if you have very many deer. Usually won't kill them, but they will keep them pruned!
Lumite is a swear word, the charge 2x what everyone else charges! High quality woven ground cover is what you need. (I know lumite is the original term, I bought it in the past too)
Plastic or fabric? It's all about anerobic tolerance. All willows will handle both, most shrubs won't. All hybrids handle both. If in doubt, use fabric. On our site, we clearly explain which ones like what. If you use plastic, cover it with something (anything) or the sun will eat it.
1 year old growth generally is best. I've used lots of 2 year old growth with success. "What are you looking for" is a tough one. I could write a book on that topic. The short answer is 1 or 2 year old growth, never less than 12" long unless you know what you are looking for. 24" is ALWAYS safe. Don't forget the 2/3 in the ground rule.
I've never had the cold damage plastic, but the sun will eat it in a season. Throw some straw, wood chips, grass clippings or something on it to keep the sun off.
I've done some fairly extensive fall testing (one year I shipped over 1000 cuttings for free to people all over the country to see how they would do). I don't recommend it. I think it has to do with moisture, but at best I have gotten ~50% success with hybrids. Spring plantings can expect 95%+ success.
Some of these questions can be answered on our blog:
http://blog.bigrocktrees.com/
And detailed info can be found on each cutting on our site:
http://www.bigrocktrees.com/
We have almost 50 types of willows (there are 100's) and several hybrids. Along with a handful of shrubs. I'm only aware of a couple of shrubs that will successfully grow from cuttings that we don't carry (they won't grow in zone 4 where we are located).
I hope that helps!
-John
I wouldn't do anything less than 6' x 6' squares. Weeds will rob all of the moisture and sunlight if they are too small. My preference is to do 6' x 15-20' if you want to do smaller patches. It's a game of edges, don't let the weeds win. I generally don't recommend cuttings on sandy soil.
Deer WILL eat them if you have very many deer. Usually won't kill them, but they will keep them pruned!
Lumite is a swear word, the charge 2x what everyone else charges! High quality woven ground cover is what you need. (I know lumite is the original term, I bought it in the past too)
Plastic or fabric? It's all about anerobic tolerance. All willows will handle both, most shrubs won't. All hybrids handle both. If in doubt, use fabric. On our site, we clearly explain which ones like what. If you use plastic, cover it with something (anything) or the sun will eat it.
1 year old growth generally is best. I've used lots of 2 year old growth with success. "What are you looking for" is a tough one. I could write a book on that topic. The short answer is 1 or 2 year old growth, never less than 12" long unless you know what you are looking for. 24" is ALWAYS safe. Don't forget the 2/3 in the ground rule.
I've never had the cold damage plastic, but the sun will eat it in a season. Throw some straw, wood chips, grass clippings or something on it to keep the sun off.
I've done some fairly extensive fall testing (one year I shipped over 1000 cuttings for free to people all over the country to see how they would do). I don't recommend it. I think it has to do with moisture, but at best I have gotten ~50% success with hybrids. Spring plantings can expect 95%+ success.
Some of these questions can be answered on our blog:
http://blog.bigrocktrees.com/
And detailed info can be found on each cutting on our site:
http://www.bigrocktrees.com/
We have almost 50 types of willows (there are 100's) and several hybrids. Along with a handful of shrubs. I'm only aware of a couple of shrubs that will successfully grow from cuttings that we don't carry (they won't grow in zone 4 where we are located).
I hope that helps!
-John
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