Crossbow Recommendation?

[wango tango]

I started with crossbows when the were first made legal for hunting in VA because I'm a hunter ed instructor and needed to teach the safety aspects. As I got older, I began using a crossbow more and more to hunt. I'm now at about 50% compound 50% crossbow depending on conditions when I hunt.

Most of my direct experience is with older crossbows, so I won't make a specific brand/model recommendation. However, the most important characteristic I look for in a crossbow for deer is quiet. Most manufacturers sell crossbows based on speed. Since a crossbow bolt behaves very closely to compound bow arrow once it leaves the bow, crossbows don't really extend the range over a compound. Since we can't generally see twigs without leaves and such beyond 20 to 30 yards, we are still talking about a short range sport.

At typical bowhunting ranges, pretty much all modern crossbows are plenty fast enough and pushing the limit of speed makes little positive difference in effectiveness. Flatter trajectories help little at these distances, especially with modern range finders that allow us to establish ranges to specific objects before we begin to hunt.

Pushing the speed limit does reduce the efficiency with which energy is transferred from the limbs through the string to the arrow. Any energy stored that is not transferred to the arrow has to go somewhere and it generally goes to vibration which means noise. There are techniques to improve speed that don't contribute to inefficient energy transfer like longer power strokes, but these techniques can all be applied at lower poundages improving energy transfer efficiency and reducing noise for a small speed penalty.

The biggest difference I find between my compound and crossbow hunting is the relative absence of string jumping with the compound compared to the crossbow and I have a very quiet crossbow as crossbows go.

Thanks,

Jack

Jack, do you mean to say deer seem to jump the string less, or more, with a compound?

 

[yoderjac]

Jack, do you mean to say deer seem to jump the string less, or more, with a compound?

I shoot a old Mathews switchback. I'm not sure I've ever had a deer jump the string with it. String jumping is pretty common with the crossbows I've used. My previous Martin Scepter caused much more string jumping than my Mathews but not as much as most of the crossbows I've used. Most compounds today are pretty quiet compared to the old days. Mathews lead that charge. I wish someone would take the lead in quieting crossbows as Mathews did years ago with compounds.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[wango tango]

I shoot a old Mathews switchback. I'm not sure I've ever had a deer jump the string with it. String jumping is pretty common with the crossbows I've used.

Thanks,

Jack

That is what I thought. My brother in law, who shoots a 32" draw, and he just bought a crossbow thinking he can shoot more deer, farther out now. I am trying to tell him otherwise! To me, and maybe it is counter intuitive, but a slower (i.e. quieter) arrow is a better choice than a faster (noisier) shot.

 

[BobinCt]

I don’t shoot my crossbow over 40 and 40 is stretching it for me. I don’t shoot it a lot and don’t feel good outside of 35 to be honest. Someone who shoots year round with be much better than me. Go on the Cabela’s home page and read the review on the Ravin R20 sniper package and don’t be buffaloed by that. It says it will kill a deer at 100 yards. If you believe this, I would not recommend you buying a crossbow. It prob will kill a deer at 100 on a perfect vital shot, but if you think your gona be taking 100 yard shots with your new cross bow and killing deer, your gona be disappointed.

 

[Natty Bumppo]

To me, and maybe it is counter intuitive, but a slower (i.e. quieter) arrow is a better choice than a faster (noisier) shot.

There is also a distance effect. Out to 20 yards, there is probably not a whole lot of string jumping that goes on regardless of how fast a bow you're shooting. The farther out the deer is, the more time it takes for the arrow to get there, the more a deer can drop. A faster arrow will reduce the amount of drop a deer can pull off compared to a slow arrow.

Growing Deer TV just posted an interesting episode that includes some revealing research regarding the ability of a deer to jump a string. Fascinating stuff.

Growing Deer TV

 

[yoderjac]

That is what I thought. My brother in law, who shoots a 32" draw, and he just bought a crossbow thinking he can shoot more deer, farther out now. I am trying to tell him otherwise! To me, and maybe it is counter intuitive, but a slower (i.e. quieter) arrow is a better choice than a faster (noisier) shot.

If he is a poor compound shooter or has a very high tolerance for wounding, he is probably right. A crossbow enforces the good shooting form that takes practice with a compound. So, if he doesn't get good groups inside 30 yards with his compound, a crossbow would likely let him reach out to 30 yards if he gets a relatively quiet crossbow. There are lots of issues beyond 30 yards. First, the human eye has a finite focus. It is almost impossible to see small twigs and braches beyond 30 yards which can easily cause a deflection and wounding. Even without string jumping, animals naturally move. A deer can move quite a bit from the time the human brain commits to pulling the trigger and the arrow arrives. String jumping magnifies this especially at short ranges. I posted some pictures from a video on another crossbow thread of string jumping.

A skilled compound bow shooter or crossbow hunter can certainly kill more deer at long range if they have a high tolerance for wounding deer. I do not. I want to know that when I release an arrow, I have a very high probability of recovering the deer. Others have different ethics.

Generally, you are not going to convince most folks to hunt within their capabilities especially when they are young. Ego is a pretty strong force.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

There is also a distance effect. Out to 20 yards, there is probably not a whole lot of string jumping that goes on regardless of how fast a bow you're shooting. The farther out the deer is, the more time it takes for the arrow to get there, the more a deer can drop. A faster arrow will reduce the amount of drop a deer can pull off compared to a slow arrow.

Growing Deer TV just posted an interesting episode that includes some revealing research regarding the ability of a deer to jump a string. Fascinating stuff.

Growing Deer TV

The difference in speed between the fastest bows ~400 fps and a much slower bow around 300 fps makes little difference in how much a deer can move by the time the arrow arrives. I showed the math on another crossbow thread. The speed of sound and reaction time of a deer are so much faster than any arrow today that it doesn't matter. Even if it made an appreciable difference, a faster bow could then turn a clean miss or flesh wound into a severe injury to an unrecoverable deer.

Having said that, string jumping has a proximity factor. Longer distances may reduce the severity and character to a deer's reaction compared to the same noise initiated from a close distance.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Bill]

As a follow up.

Haven't neede support with Ravin. But my other cross bow is a Ten-Point brand, something model?
Had one side where the string was starting to Frey. I called them and they had me send it in to be gone over and replaced the string free of charge.

They are known for good customer service.

 

[Maddog3355]

What is your price range? Buddy of mine just went to Bass Pro and shot the top end bows. He liked the Ravin the best so he went down the road and bought it for $1200, bass pro was wanting $1500. We got it tuned in and it’s deadly to 100 yards. We went hunting and he took a doe at 84 yards said he hit right where he was aiming. I shot 2 does the same evening with my $225 Centerpoint Sniper 370. But after shooting his Ravin my opinion is Ravin would be a Cadillac and my Centerpoint would be a Chrysler.

 

[JFK52]

I was given a NIB Barnett that a friend won at some raffle. This was 25 years ago. I did not care for it. It had to be manually cocked which after a few shots gets old. You had to constantly make sure that all the nuts were tightened up as they worked loose the more one shot it. The string tended to fray easily.
I gave this bow away to the son of my cleaning lady because he did not have the funds to buy any kind of xbow. He at least has something to hunt with now. Barnett might make better xbows today but I was not impressed with that bow.

 

[Natty Bumppo]

The difference in speed between the fastest bows ~400 fps and a much slower bow around 300 fps makes little difference in how much a deer can move by the time the arrow arrives.
Jack

It seems Dr. Grant's research supports this....beyond 30 yards. At 20 yards it would appear that a deer can't really drop enough to avoid an arrow no matter the speed. At 30 a faster bow will hit the target, while a slower bow will not. I think Grant tested a bow shooting high 300's vs, one shooting high 200's. Beyond that, yes, there then appears to be no difference between a fast and a slow arrow. Both missed at 40 yards. At 30 and under a faster bow will indeed reduce the string jump effect. He also suggests an interesting theory that deer with their head down at arrow release can drop faster than deer with their heads up.

 

[hillHuntR]

I have killed a lot of deer with crossbows that shoot below 300fps and are pretty loud for the last decade. Never had an issue, all complete pass throughs. More speed does have some benefits, but also drawbacks like reducing life span of bow components. Wish i had the money to own all of them though! I like a heavy arrow setup to quiet bows, reduce stress on the bow, and improve penetration

Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk

 

[wiscwhip]

I have killed a lot of deer with crossbows that shoot below 300fps and are pretty loud for the last decade. Never had an issue, all complete pass throughs. More speed does have some benefits, but also drawbacks like reducing life span of bow components. Wish i had the money to own all of them though! I like a heavy arrow setup to quiet bows, reduce stress on the bow, and improve penetration

Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk

This was my mantra even with compound bows. I shot the heaviest arrow I could find that was specific to my spine weight for my draw length and poundage. Bows are a lot more forgiving of small mistakes in shooting form with a heavier arrow also. I know no one uses aluminum arrows any more, but the Easton spine weight chart was indispensable when I was younger. When tuning my setups, I always started with the heaviest arrow that was recommended in the chart and only went lighter if I had bad flight that I could not correct through other methods. For those of you that have been in the archery game for any length of time, you should know who Norb Mullaney is. I discussed this at length with him personally at the WBH Necedah Shoot many years ago and he said the move towards the lightest possible arrows he felt was a mistake, and would lead to more lost deer as the trend moved forward. Not sure if that was, or is true, but coming from someone like him, it felt like I was on the right path with my train of thinking.

 

[yoderjac]

It seems Dr. Grant's research supports this....beyond 30 yards. At 20 yards it would appear that a deer can't really drop enough to avoid an arrow no matter the speed. At 30 a faster bow will hit the target, while a slower bow will not. I think Grant tested a bow shooting high 300's vs, one shooting high 200's. Beyond that, yes, there then appears to be no difference between a fast and a slow arrow. Both missed at 40 yards. At 30 and under a faster bow will indeed reduce the string jump effect. He also suggests an interesting theory that deer with their head down at arrow release can drop faster than deer with their heads up.

Not a whole lot of research is needed here. With all the hunts that are recorded these days, it is very easy to document string jumping. Here is the post I was referring to with the pictures: http://www.habitat-talk.com/index.php?threads/crossbow-noise.9885/#post-179849 The math is also in that thread.

The pictures there come from a video. We marked the frame before the bow produced noise in the audio channel and marked the position of the deer's shoulder. When you go through the video frame by frame, you can pick the frame where the arrow arrives at the deer. This particular video was shot at 30fps in standard definition, but we were lucky and happened to catch it as it passed the deer. Higher speed videos in HD make this even more obvious. At this point, we marked the position of the shoulder again. Given the typical shoulder height of a doe in that area, we can pretty accurately estimate the amount of drop when the arrow arrives. This was a 300 fps arrow.

There are certainly examples of deer not dropping this much at 20 yards, but that is the problem. You can't count on string jumping. It may or may not happen and the amount can vary. The slide I posted in the other thread I reference simply shows what deer can do at 20 yards, not what they will do. So, regardless of bow speed, at 20 yards your 9" target can move 18"-22" by the time the arrow arrives.

One more thing to consider. The deer avoiding the arrow is a good thing! I would much rather that happen than the deer almost avoiding the arrow. I would prefer a clean miss to wounding a deer and not recovering it. Depending on the angle of the shot, a movement of only 6" can be the difference between a recovery and a loss.

I'm not suggesting shooting 200 fps bows. My old Mathews Switchback shoots about 320 fps but is deadly quiet. Crossbows have a different challenge. Stored energy is the area under the draw curve. Traditionally, crossbows have made up for a short draw length by over doubling the poundage compared to a compound bow. New designs are experimenting with all kinds of configurations. The marking push is speed, but the difference between 300 fps and 400 fps in inconsequential. In either case, if a deer jumps the string you will likely miss or wound it, even at 20 yards.

I'm simply suggesting that once you get around 300 fps, you've accounted for sufficient ranging error inside 30 yards given todays ranging technology. If you can range a target inside 30 yards with 2 yard accuracy, ranging error doesn't contribute more than an inch or so at 300 fps. Rather than focusing on making a bow faster at this point, folks selecting a design that minimizes the intensity and character of the noise that contributes to string jumping will have more harvests and less losses than folks selecting designs that maximize speed at the expense of quieting.

Thanks,

jack

 

[Natty Bumppo]

Not a whole lot of research is needed here. With all the hunts that are recorded these days, it is very easy to document string jumping.

I don't think anybody is refuting string jumping. Documenting string jump is one thing. Quantifying it is another. I enjoyed the thread you referenced...and I really do not disagree with anything you're saying. I'm O.K. with more research and deeper understandings of what exactly happens when the arrow flies, and I think Grant's research is just an attempt to quantify string jump and add some clarity. One video of a deer dropping 19" at 20 yards certainly is nowhere near a big enough sample size to demonstrate the norm. I think that's the extreme of what could happen. Notice that deer's head was also down. This extreme drop corroborates what Grant suggested...the neck muscles and shoulders may act as a fulcrum that allows the deer to drop more quickly than a deer with its head up.

Understanding all these factors...bow speed, bow noise, distance, angle, calm deer, alert deer, the average shoulder drop I might expect upon release...play a role in the decisions every hunter should be making the moment of release. For example, Grant suggests aiming for the bottom third of the deer to compensate for the possibility of the deer jumping the string. Like you, I limit my shots to 25 yards. I shoot a slower, quiet bow. If a deer is alert or is alerted when I draw, I begin to factor all those things I mentioned above to decide if the shot presents a high probability of a clean kill or not.

 

[SwampCat]

Make sure your thumb is out of the way of the string. The Ravin is equipped with a string guard - but doubt it is 100% effective.

 

[roymunson]

i should not have viewed this thread around lunch time...

As with many of the "arrow slingers" today, I feel that the humans are the limiting factor.

That said, I killed a buck late season 2 years ago that I'd have never got killed with a compound.
In a blind, lots of deer around, 32 yards. He moved to my right and the window jam came into the sight picture. I had a rest aim, switched to left handed and centerpunched him.

Wouldn't have even got an arrow away with the compound.

Lots of good options that have come around since the old Horton Supermags. Just realize, you're probably the weakest link in the chain of what it takes to get a deer killed.

 

[Victor Van Meter]

My family uses a PSE Fang and it was sub $300 and has killed multiple deer. It isn't quiet by any stretch, but will shoot almost flat to 35 yards. My son killed a good 8 point with it Monday evening at 32 yards. FYI, the bolts that come with it are crap, we use the Victory ones in Sportsmansguide that were $30 for 6.

 

[yoderjac]

I don't think anybody is refuting string jumping. Documenting string jump is one thing. Quantifying it is another. I enjoyed the thread you referenced...and I really do not disagree with anything you're saying. I'm O.K. with more research and deeper understandings of what exactly happens when the arrow flies, and I think Grant's research is just an attempt to quantify string jump and add some clarity. One video of a deer dropping 19" at 20 yards certainly is nowhere near a big enough sample size to demonstrate the norm. I think that's the extreme of what could happen. Notice that deer's head was also down. This extreme drop corroborates what Grant suggested...the neck muscles and shoulders may act as a fulcrum that allows the deer to drop more quickly than a deer with its head up.

Understanding all these factors...bow speed, bow noise, distance, angle, calm deer, alert deer, the average shoulder drop I might expect upon release...play a role in the decisions every hunter should be making the moment of release. For example, Grant suggests aiming for the bottom third of the deer to compensate for the possibility of the deer jumping the string. Like you, I limit my shots to 25 yards. I shoot a slower, quiet bow. If a deer is alert or is alerted when I draw, I begin to factor all those things I mentioned above to decide if the shot presents a high probability of a clean kill or not.

I really have no problem with more research into understanding the factors involved. I think the issues boil down to this. Deer are clearly capable of those large drops as that video shows. By the way, that particular deer appeared very calm prior to arrow release. It is certainly not the only video showing string jumping. I'm not at all suggesting that particular example is the norm. It simply shows capability of deer to react to the sound of a bow in their danger proximity zone.

I have a pretty low tolerance for wounding deer, so if I know deer are capable of this, I want to do everything I can to minimize it. What I meant to says was that more research is not needed to understand what deer are capable of when it comes to string jumping and we should make our choices based on that. More research into understanding the triggers, conditions, and mechanisms of string jumping are definitely worthwhile.

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

I know "string jumping" is real, and also believe it's nothing more than a startled deer loading up its muscles to make a quick get away. I have just never experienced it.