Cover too thick for deer

[SD51555]

Piggybacking off @Howboutthemdawgs drone thread, I wondered about his comments about high stem count big block cover. I can see how they could be devoid of deer usage. I've walked high stem areas and wondered the same thing, "How the hell do deer get around in here?"

I still whack pretty hard on my property in small amounts. A few of the things I started doing the last 4 years or so is to keep those cuts small, and ensure I don't create a mess with no way through it. It takes a little longer to be strategic with where stuff falls, but it seems to be worth it.

I wonder if the problem with big block cover is the lack of escape routes in the event a deer is jumped by some sort of predator?

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

I think the composition of density is the thing that matters. I will die on the hill of deer will avoid a high stem cut regen timber cut from a couple years post cut, until some shading out of trees occurs. I have never personally seen a managed landscape in the Midwest post cut, I’m sure they are there somewhere. Aspect also matters. South and west facing slopes are impenetrable. North and east can be ok sometimes. In the Deep South I’ve seen plenty of beautiful managed post cut stands. The variable is generally fire.
On the contrary a thick stand of Forbes and grasses can be as good as it gets for almost every species we have.
As much as I hate to say it, a thick stand of cedars with not so much as a mushroom growing underneath will also hold deer.

 

[Native Hunter]

I think mature bucks in February probably act differently than they do in hunting season when the bullets are flying. Bottom line is that when pressure hits, they will want to be where humans aren’t going to be.

 

[Spike_Horn_Shooter]

Two different scenarios:

Prickly ash thickets
Northern NY: Private land with little human pressure and moderate coyote pressure. 1/3-5 doe/buck ratio. In areas where the prickly ash is so thick, I see little evidence of deer usage. There are less trails than you would think and very little evidence of deer usage. In areas where their are natural openings and grass/raspberry growth the browse is heavy. I cut a 3’ access trail along the property line and the deer usage sky rocketed. It looks like a cattle trail to the milk house.

Green briar thickets.
Central Ohio. Heavy hunter pressure/low coyote pressure (much smaller coyotes). The doe seem to travel in these impenetrable thickets very easily and quietly, and the buck will travel through them during rut to get to does. You can hear a heavy horned buck thrashing through the thickets before you see them.

Most of the deer beds I find have some sort of topography advantage with the wind (blocking predominant wind) and a view shed of where predators will be coming from.

Examples:
I remember the last fresh one I found in December. NY muzzleloader. Fresh tracking snow. Bed was almost on the top of a hill overlooking the only access trail on a beaver dam through a swamp. Not on top with all the wind, but down 1/10th of the way to be out of the wind.

Jumped a big buck in Ohio while scouting with a friend. He was bedded about 50 yards from the road on the edge of some thick stuff, but monitoring via the wind the access trail from the road. He let us walk all around him talking, then only jumped up when we got around his backside where he couldn’t smell us and it opened up to where he was probably looking.

 

[Spike_Horn_Shooter]

From a habitat perspective, I think that pockets of thick cover with grass lands interspersed is the best combo for deer usage and security.

 

[gjs4]

What about thick shrubs like Dogwood? or invasives with open understory like older Bush Honeysuckle?

Like SD, Dawgs thread has my mind reeling with wonder on if my thicker than sasquatch hair ohio mess is too thick. I only have SD cams remaining...so I will know more on my next trip down.

 

[Telemark]

This is exactly why I want to do thermal surveys. The actual behavior of deer can be very surprising. I want to KNOW how deer are using my property so I can adjust it for their benefit with confidence. Theory is great, but knowing beats hoping any day.

 

[omicron1792]

Two different scenarios:

Prickly ash thickets
Northern NY: Private land with little human pressure and moderate coyote pressure. 1/3-5 doe/buck ratio. In areas where the prickly ash is so thick, I see little evidence of deer usage. There are less trails than you would think and very little evidence of deer usage. In areas where their are natural openings and grass/raspberry growth the browse is heavy. I cut a 3’ access trail along the property line and the deer usage sky rocketed. It looks like a cattle trail to the milk house.

Green briar thickets.
Central Ohio. Heavy hunter pressure/low coyote pressure (much smaller coyotes). The doe seem to travel in these impenetrable thickets very easily and quietly, and the buck will travel through them during rut to get to does. You can hear a heavy horned buck thrashing through the thickets before you see them.

Most of the deer beds I find have some sort of topography advantage with the wind (blocking predominant wind) and a view shed of where predators will be coming from.

Examples:
I remember the last fresh one I found in December. NY muzzleloader. Fresh tracking snow. Bed was almost on the top of a hill overlooking the only access trail on a beaver dam through a swamp. Not on top with all the wind, but down 1/10th of the way to be out of the wind.

Jumped a big buck in Ohio while scouting with a friend. He was bedded about 50 yards from the road on the edge of some thick stuff, but monitoring via the wind the access trail from the road. He let us walk all around him talking, then only jumped up when we got around his backside where he couldn’t smell us and it opened up to where he was probably looking.

I agree with all that. Been my experience.

I left a thick as crap area along a creek. Thought deer would love it. They don’t because it’s along a bottom and too thick. I did shoot a buck that ran in it, but only will go in it during immense pressure.

My bucks bed about 2/3 the way up a ridge, with high tree cover. Bucks seem to like some top tree cover. They don’t bed in the cutovers where all the does do. I think @Native Hunter or someone on here told me that but I don’t look for bucks in the cutover areas. They cruise the timber sniffing the cutover. They might run through them in rut.

 

[omicron1792]

This is exactly why I want to do thermal surveys. The actual behavior of deer can be very surprising. I want to KNOW how deer are using my property so I can adjust it for their benefit with confidence. Theory is great, but knowing beats hoping any day.

Same. I’ve been doing my from the ground thermal surveys for two years. But I will get a drone to do it this next year.

When do you think best time to do it is? Was thinking September about a month before archery season

 

[buckdeer1]

I don't have alot of elevation changes on mine but I don't think that cover always dictates where deer bed.Alot of it is how the air circulates through for both temperature and scent thermals.Also how they can use vision.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

I don't have alot of elevation changes on mine but I don't think that cover always dictates where deer bed.Alot of it is how the air circulates through for both temperature and scent thermals.Also how they can use vision.

Agreed. I’ve seen plenty of beds in open hardwood ridges. Especially points

 

[Turkey Creek]

The bucks arent going to use a high stem count area when they are in velvet.

 

[SD51555]

I wish this hadn't come up in the thinking period (winter). I wonder if the perfect design doesn't require a massive amount of cover made up of tiny pockets with lots of room to escape in all directions. I mentioned the egg carton design a few weeks back in that one dude's 6 acre field thread.



I wish my property wasn't so rutted up. I could never get a billy goat down any new trails I could make through cover. Between logging ruts, and decades of cattle being grazed in there during standing water periods, there isn't a smooth spot I didn't make myself.

 

[SwampCat]

As always - everywhere is different. My home property backs up to a 160 acre slough that is usually dry in the summer. It is mostly buttonbrush and swamp privet - extremely high stem count - and the deer largely do not use it. Six miles away, on a hardwood bottomland NWR with mostly mature, open bottomland, the deer will pour into those dried up slough beds because cover is at a premium.

One of the preferred bedding areas on my place are ash groves with closed canopy with open understory and two ft tall ground cover. Deer fill these areas up. They provide thermal cover - as cooling when leaves are on the tree. They heavily use this cover year round



And yes, my deer use mature cedars also. They absolutely do not bed in nwsg - little bluestem, indian grass, and gamma. They will absolutely bed at night time in the larger 3 plus acre wheat food plots

 

[buckdeer1]

I have watched bucks lay down in 12 inch grass with a small tree to their back and disappear but he could see and smell everything he needed. I have a CP33 CRp which is 120ft of big blue and little blue around the edge of a crop field.We had a wet snow then some rain and that big blue is laying flat a my other areas of switch are still standing.I may burn and drill some switch in it.
I have pull tree tops out in the crp to build structure and as long as the brush isn't stack tight enough to protect coons and possums I find that everything from deer to turkeys gravitate towards them.They also seem to do this to different weeds patches in a field of grass.

 

[gjs4]

Same. I’ve been doing my from the ground thermal surveys for two years. But I will get a drone to do it this next year.

When do you think best time to do it is? Was thinking September about a month before archery season

What gear (specifically) are you using?

 

[SwampCat]

Same. I’ve been doing my from the ground thermal surveys for two years. But I will get a drone to do it this next year.

When do you think best time to do it is? Was thinking September about a month before archery season

Is a drone going to allow you to differentiate between different bucks; and fawns from 1.5 yr old does to determine unique bucks and doe/fawn recruitment numbers? I dont consider winter, post season numbers nearly as informational as preseason herd structure and density.

 

[matinc]

Swampcat I'm curious if you live in the south. That picture with the deer lying down is amazing to me based on michigan standards as an open area. I am wondering if the deer down south use such open areas due to heat of the day.

 

[omicron1792]

Is a drone going to allow you to differentiate between different bucks; and fawns from 1.5 yr old does to determine unique bucks and doe/fawn recruitment numbers? I dont consider winter, post season numbers nearly as informational as preseason herd structure and density.

Good call. Right before season it is!

 

[omicron1792]

What gear (specifically) are you using?

Pulsar merger xp50 lrf
Pulsar duo dxp50