Coronavirus

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Knehrke, I have a question that I think you may be able to answer for me; what are known side effects of a mRNA vaccine? I know people can be allergic to some of the ingredients so that's already out there, what about the method itself? Has previous studies and trials showed anything. Granted this is the first widespread vaccine of this type but I think they've been around for 3 decades or so.

A little off topic but have you guys read about the history of the smallpox vaccine? It's a very successful project but some of the stories out there are amazing. One article said that New York police would go into neighborhoods and hold people at gunpoint and cuffs while forcing injections (doesn't look like NY wants to change much). Sometimes it's interesting to know what our ancestors lived through and compare it to now.
 
99.8% survival rate? Where's that? Not sure who's blog you've been reading. If you truly believe in using your brain, then look at the numbers from the vaccine trials. And look at mortality rates world wide. Opinions are like armpits... Check your sources.
Not the one with whom you are arguing... but... you might need to be slower to throw stones, Knehrke.

Original case fatality rate estimates back in the March - April time frame ran the gamut between 3% to 6%... BUT... what these rates did not factor in were the tremendously high number of asymptomatic cases among the young and relatively healthy.

There actually are numerous peer-reviewed studies now pointing to infectious fatality rates of approximately 0.2% to 0.3%. These studies have come from multiple countries / locations where instead of merely calculating infectious death rates based on CASES reported, much more widespread testing was done with the result of identifying extremely high numbers of people who had contracted coronavirus without even realizing they had it / without suffering ANY noticeable ill effects.

One such location is Iceland where between 40% to 50% of those found to have antibodies in widespread testing (whether sick or not) were found to have been asymptomatic after contracting COVID 19.

To put the 0.3% infectious fatality rate into perspective, annual influenza infection fatality rates average around 0.1%, so overall covid appears to be 2 to 3 times as deadly as the typical flu versus original estimates of being 30 to 60 times more deadly. Worth noting, multiple studies now show covid is actually LESS lethal than standard flu strains to those between the age of 0 and 50. To the contrary, however, the fatality rates are higher and grow statistically much more significantly higher with the combination of advanced age and additional comorbidities.

If you wish, Knehrke, I'll share links to these updated study numbers -- most have been released within the past two months, so anyone reading / pointing to aged data between March and the summer months are speaking to extremely flawed data biased by severe cases that did NOT include calculations for those asymptomatic and / or with very mild cases.

Now for some local data from my area both on a micro-level (admittedly anecdotal) and with a bit more statistical significance. First, the smaller scale personal note -- within our small medical practice 6 of 16 employees have had covid. 3 of the 6 cases the employees never ran fevers or had any symptoms beyond briefly losing their sense of taste -- that was their ONLY symptom. 2 of the employees had symptoms I would classify the equivalent of a mild cold. Finally, the 6th employee only had a severe headache -- that was her ONLY symptom. If not for awareness of covid, had it been a prior year I can tell you with relative confidence that these employees all would have opted to continue working except the one with the day-long severe headache (while her only symptom, she said it was the worst headache she could remember). I should stress that the age of these employees was relatively young -- between early 20s and early 40s.

Now for more statistically significant data -- I live just outside Leon County / Florida's capital city of Tallahassee. In a county with a population of 300,000 there have been 171 deaths out of 17,800 confirmed cases with the emphasis that unlike Iceland our area has NOT pushed for testing of ALL our citizens / those asymptomatic, but instead have strongly steered limited testing capacity to those actually having symptoms. If I'm doing my math right, that's a known case fatality rate of a single percent, so NOT a big stretch to believe that with the inclusion of all those who have been asymptomatic and uncounted that our rate would ABSOLUTELY fall well under 1 percent / at most likely be half a percent.

And not trying to be anti-science nor anti-vax with that data share, but do I believe it worth crippling an economy for a supposed scary pandemic that's only managed to kill 1 in 1,000 for my area over the course of nearly an entire year, with half the deaths among those very old and / or already sick -- ABSOLUTELY not. And does it also make me question the validity of pushing vaccines on those who already have antibodies / those who are young and face less risk of the disease than from the flu / etc --- ABSOLUTELY so. Finally, do I find it extremely reasonable that those who are over the age of 50 to 60 and especially those with serious comorbidities to opt (of their own choosing) to receive vaccination -- ABSOLUTELY so.

Believe I'm sharing flawed data, can't back it up with up-to-date scientific journals just let me know.
 
And I'd add it ANGERS me that the powers that be (those in political power / seeking power) have done so much to scare the masses by burying actual SCIENTIFIC data related to the rate of risk associated with age -- far more significant risk among the aged and far, FAR lower risk among the young than many appreciate.

It was easy to find charts showing breakouts by age early in the pandemic -- now a struggle to find them online, as doesn't help keep the masses panicked. Even charts based on early case counts (not including asymptomatic) showed how relatively modest the risks are for most of those who are SCHOOL and WORKING aged.

Covid Case Fatality Rates.jpg

Above shared, living in a college town I can 100% tell you that many of the college-aged kids have figured out it doesn't pose much risk to them. Chart of our local cases pretty much shows how cavalier they've grown regarding their own risks, regularly getting busted for holding "covid parties" so that they can contract covid, get over it, put the fear behind them. Just wish I could share a chart of the age of those who've actually died as I suspect it would follow national and state trends with approximately half the deaths in those last few small columns, again speaking to the point of very low risks for the young with much more significant risks to the aged.

College Kids & Covid.jpg
 
Not the one with whom you are arguing... but... you might need to be slower to throw stones, Knehrke.

Original case fatality rate estimates back in the March - April time frame ran the gamut between 3% to 6%... BUT... what these rates did not factor in were the tremendously high number of asymptomatic cases among the young and relatively healthy.

There actually are numerous peer-reviewed studies now pointing to infectious fatality rates of approximately 0.2% to 0.3%. These studies have come from multiple countries / locations where instead of merely calculating infectious death rates based on CASES reported, much more widespread testing was done with the result of identifying extremely high numbers of people who had contracted coronavirus without even realizing they had it / without suffering ANY noticeable ill effects.

One such location is Iceland where between 40% to 50% of those found to have antibodies in widespread testing (whether sick or not) were found to have been asymptomatic after contracting COVID 19.

To put the 0.3% infectious fatality rate into perspective, annual influenza infection fatality rates average around 0.1%, so overall covid appears to be 2 to 3 times as deadly as the typical flu versus original estimates of being 30 to 60 times more deadly. Worth noting, multiple studies now show covid is actually LESS lethal than standard flu strains to those between the age of 0 and 50. To the contrary, however, the fatality rates are higher and grow statistically much more significantly higher with the combination of advanced age and additional comorbidities.

If you wish, Knehrke, I'll share links to these updated study numbers -- most have been released within the past two months, so anyone reading / pointing to aged data between March and the summer months are speaking to extremely flawed data biased by severe cases that did NOT include calculations for those asymptomatic and / or with very mild cases.

Now for some local data from my area both on a micro-level (admittedly anecdotal) and with a bit more statistical significance. First, the smaller scale personal note -- within our small medical practice 6 of 16 employees have had covid. 3 of the 6 cases the employees never ran fevers or had any symptoms beyond briefly losing their sense of taste -- that was their ONLY symptom. 2 of the employees had symptoms I would classify the equivalent of a mild cold. Finally, the 6th employee only had a severe headache -- that was her ONLY symptom. If not for awareness of covid, had it been a prior year I can tell you with relative confidence that these employees all would have opted to continue working except the one with the day-long severe headache (while her only symptom, she said it was the worst headache she could remember). I should stress that the age of these employees was relatively young -- between early 20s and early 40s.

Now for more statistically significant data -- I live just outside Leon County / Florida's capital city of Tallahassee. In a county with a population of 300,000 there have been 171 deaths out of 17,800 confirmed cases with the emphasis that unlike Iceland our area has NOT pushed for testing of ALL our citizens / those asymptomatic, but instead have strongly steered limited testing capacity to those actually having symptoms. If I'm doing my math right, that's a known case fatality rate of a single percent, so NOT a big stretch to believe that with the inclusion of all those who have been asymptomatic and uncounted that our rate would ABSOLUTELY fall well under 1 percent / at most likely be half a percent.

And not trying to be anti-science nor anti-vax with that data share, but do I believe it worth crippling an economy for a supposed scary pandemic that's only managed to kill 1 in 1,000 for my area over the course of nearly an entire year, with half the deaths among those very old and / or already sick -- ABSOLUTELY not. And does it also make me question the validity of pushing vaccines on those who already have antibodies / those who are young and face less risk of the disease than from the flu / etc --- ABSOLUTELY so. Finally, do I find it extremely reasonable that those who are over the age of 50 to 60 and especially those with serious comorbidities to opt (of their own choosing) to receive vaccination -- ABSOLUTELY so.

Believe I'm sharing flawed data, can't back it up with up-to-date scientific journals just let me know.
Thank you for your thoughtful post.

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A 15% increase in deaths in 2020 compared to 2019. The last time there was that high of an increase year over year was in 1918, where the US was hit by both WWI and the Spanish Flu.
 
Not sure where you guys were at in the early 90's. I remember it well. I was 14 years old when this came out.

I've never been one that liked being told what to do.
 
Hoyt, how could you possibly know those numbers? Official 2019 count hasn't been verified and 2020 would still technically be a guess and not verified either.

Bigbend great post!
 
Well past peak corona here in MN. Funny thing is our graph looks exactly like every other single graph I have seen from NYC, AZ, TX, FL. A sharp spike up, then comes back down. Virus doing what viruses do. Nearly 31,000 of our healthcare workers already had corona, but they put them in the front of the line for the cure while the old codgers continue to take the brunt of this bio weapon.




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Not the one with whom you are arguing... but... you might need to be slower to throw stones, Knehrke.

Original case fatality rate estimates back in the March - April time frame ran the gamut between 3% to 6%... BUT... what these rates did not factor in were the tremendously high number of asymptomatic cases among the young and relatively healthy.

There actually are numerous peer-reviewed studies now pointing to infectious fatality rates of approximately 0.2% to 0.3%. These studies have come from multiple countries / locations where instead of merely calculating infectious death rates based on CASES reported, much more widespread testing was done with the result of identifying extremely high numbers of people who had contracted coronavirus without even realizing they had it / without suffering ANY noticeable ill effects.

One such location is Iceland where between 40% to 50% of those found to have antibodies in widespread testing (whether sick or not) were found to have been asymptomatic after contracting COVID 19.

To put the 0.3% infectious fatality rate into perspective, annual influenza infection fatality rates average around 0.1%, so overall covid appears to be 2 to 3 times as deadly as the typical flu versus original estimates of being 30 to 60 times more deadly. Worth noting, multiple studies now show covid is actually LESS lethal than standard flu strains to those between the age of 0 and 50. To the contrary, however, the fatality rates are higher and grow statistically much more significantly higher with the combination of advanced age and additional comorbidities.

If you wish, Knehrke, I'll share links to these updated study numbers -- most have been released within the past two months, so anyone reading / pointing to aged data between March and the summer months are speaking to extremely flawed data biased by severe cases that did NOT include calculations for those asymptomatic and / or with very mild cases.

Now for some local data from my area both on a micro-level (admittedly anecdotal) and with a bit more statistical significance. First, the smaller scale personal note -- within our small medical practice 6 of 16 employees have had covid. 3 of the 6 cases the employees never ran fevers or had any symptoms beyond briefly losing their sense of taste -- that was their ONLY symptom. 2 of the employees had symptoms I would classify the equivalent of a mild cold. Finally, the 6th employee only had a severe headache -- that was her ONLY symptom. If not for awareness of covid, had it been a prior year I can tell you with relative confidence that these employees all would have opted to continue working except the one with the day-long severe headache (while her only symptom, she said it was the worst headache she could remember). I should stress that the age of these employees was relatively young -- between early 20s and early 40s.

Now for more statistically significant data -- I live just outside Leon County / Florida's capital city of Tallahassee. In a county with a population of 300,000 there have been 171 deaths out of 17,800 confirmed cases with the emphasis that unlike Iceland our area has NOT pushed for testing of ALL our citizens / those asymptomatic, but instead have strongly steered limited testing capacity to those actually having symptoms. If I'm doing my math right, that's a known case fatality rate of a single percent, so NOT a big stretch to believe that with the inclusion of all those who have been asymptomatic and uncounted that our rate would ABSOLUTELY fall well under 1 percent / at most likely be half a percent.

And not trying to be anti-science nor anti-vax with that data share, but do I believe it worth crippling an economy for a supposed scary pandemic that's only managed to kill 1 in 1,000 for my area over the course of nearly an entire year, with half the deaths among those very old and / or already sick -- ABSOLUTELY not. And does it also make me question the validity of pushing vaccines on those who already have antibodies / those who are young and face less risk of the disease than from the flu / etc --- ABSOLUTELY so. Finally, do I find it extremely reasonable that those who are over the age of 50 to 60 and especially those with serious comorbidities to opt (of their own choosing) to receive vaccination -- ABSOLUTELY so.

Believe I'm sharing flawed data, can't back it up with up-to-date scientific journals just let me know.

You make a good argument and present several valid points for consideration. I'm fairly current on the literature and I recognize that there is a wide spread on the educated guesses that folks are making, which is really all we can do given that our understanding of this disease is continuously evolving.

And so I will walk back my original criticism to the extent that I don't think anyone has a great handle on the numbers. However, what I object to is simply dismissing the reports of excess mortality because it doesn't fit your narrative. There are arguments to be made for an against all of our positions. You make some good arguments. I respect that. I wish that I had more than five free minutes to jot down a response. Unfortunately, I'm dealing with a COVID emergency at work that's off the rails, but I did want to take the time to thank you for your thoughtful and well articulate perspective.
 
Knehrke, I have a question that I think you may be able to answer for me; what are known side effects of a mRNA vaccine? I know people can be allergic to some of the ingredients so that's already out there, what about the method itself? Has previous studies and trials showed anything. Granted this is the first widespread vaccine of this type but I think they've been around for 3 decades or so.

A little off topic but have you guys read about the history of the smallpox vaccine? It's a very successful project but some of the stories out there are amazing. One article said that New York police would go into neighborhoods and hold people at gunpoint and cuffs while forcing injections (doesn't look like NY wants to change much). Sometimes it's interesting to know what our ancestors lived through and compare it to now.
Missed this on my quick read this afternoon. Got to be brief, but generally the side effects are limited to standard inflammatory responses much like you'd get to adjuvant in a conventional vaccination, and this, as you point out, occurs in response to the delivery system rather than the genetic material itself. While there are several examples of mRNA vaccines that have been used previously, there are many more studies over the past decade on RNA interference therapeutics, which delivers small, synthetic double stranded RNA as a way of suppressing an existing complementary mRNA target from being made into protein, and because it's been so hot, this area is where IMHO relevant safety data has been generated. Since the genetic material is exerting its effect in the cytoplasm rather than the nucleus, there is nearly zero chance of genetic abnormalities or germline effects - most of the concern is innate immune responses where the host recognizes the RNA as foreign.

The history of vaccination in this country is astounding. Many of our current biomedical ethics guidelines came about from the shameful things that our government perpetrated in the course of testing new approaches. I like to think that we do a better job of monitoring for these types of shenanigans now.
 
The history of vaccination in this country is astounding. Many of our current biomedical ethics guidelines came about from the shameful things that our government perpetrated in the course of testing new approaches. I like to think that we do a better job of monitoring for these types of shenanigans now.
 
Here is my antidotal evidence, my best customer just got it. I talked to him two weeks ago to see if he wanted to go out to lunch. He said he couldn’t because he was quarantined because his son had it and was staying at his house. I talked to his other son today and asked if the old man was ready for lunch yet. He said no, his mon and dad both had COVID and were in quarantine. I immediately became concerned and asked how his dad was doing. All is good and he is over it. Here is the rest of the story... His dad is 60 something, and a morbidly obese alcoholic. This guy can’t tie his own shoes he is so fat. He felt like shit for a couple days and that was it. Sorry if I don’t want to wreck the economy, ruin my kids childhood, and have the government tell me I’m getting a vaccine all so we could get rid of the mean orange guy. China should get a nuke dropped on them.
 
Wait... the old rich white guy got the vaccine before his female/of color counterpart? I can't believe CNN, The Today Show, and Pelosi haven't picked up on this racism yet... they are usually quick to point this type of privilege out.

To answer the question about believing things; I tend to believe people and give most the benefit of the doubt, until I know they will lie to me. After catching a lie I become distrustful of that person (even on different topics). When Trump tried to shut down travel from China he was called a racist which made no sense to me. When he said to not make rush judgements on the protest that turned violent... that there were fine people on both sides (something I took as diplomatic and non-committal as possible) he was racist. He paid no taxes. He used Russia to change the election. The downplay of Warp Speed. Etc. I'm having a hard time not viewing media as manipulators at best. This distrust is wide spread and I'm certain it's reflected in the distrust of Covid reporting. Difficult to regain credibility. To be honest, I find it quite frightening to not have faith in the dominant information sources and at the same time know that many believe everything they say.

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You must have missed this evenings news, they were talking about racism in the vaccine situation. I changed the channel...
 
You must have missed this evenings news, they were talking about racism in the vaccine situation. I changed the channel...
Ya... I missed it.

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I took mine Friday
I am lactating this morning

bill

Hope to start the rumor it makes your junk bigger figured there will be a line a mile long of men wanting to get it. Worked for me. I received mine on the 17th.


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If I was smart and running the show I wouldn't be vaccinating people by industry, importance or whatever other stupid metric is being used. What sense does it make to vaccinate my wife's hospital??? They have all already got the corona and brought it home to all of their families, mine included. Their masks didn't work and the test didn't lie so I am assuming their is no reason wasting and mandating my 34yo wife to take the vaccine.


Instead, if I were running the show I would go by age category. 80+ would receive the first round and I would basically cut the deaths in half assuming the vaccine works. Then 70-80 and then 60-70 and then 50-60. By the time I get everyone 70+years old vaccinated I eliminate 80+% of the deaths most likely. They are aiming this vaccine at the wrong damn targets. Here is a chart of the reported people that died in MN yesterday. This virus produces almost no risk to people under 50 other than feeling like shit for a couple days, just like every other virus. Yet here we are, demanding that a bunch of 20, 30 and 40 year old healthcare workers that already had the coronahoax take this shit or lose their jobs.


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We are very close to running out of staff to take care of this population when they get sick. We had to close whole units in our hospital because we couldn’t staff them due to Covid infections recently. You have to remember we are talking a pretty short gap until we move tor he next phase. I am hearing mid January until we move to vaccinating the public. 6 of us worked 15 hours to vaccinate about 220 people not counting prep time. Just vaccinating imagine trying to scale this this will be a major major undertaking.


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I have had thoughts from the start that this virus had something to do with SS being BROKE. Who gets SS checks? Old people.

We’ve blown any money we’d have saved from the 8,000 healthy people that died from rona. We have moved up the federal bankrupty date by 5-7 years because of the rona deficits. Between the fed and gov’t, we’ve printed a year’s economic output out of thin air. It’s no wonder there is a currency shortage, there is nothing to buy, and home prices are thru the roof despite there being a foreclosure crisis on deck the moment the moratorium is lifted.


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About 2,834,000 people in the US die every year. This year 2,885,000 have died. Where are all the COVID deaths? The plandemic has apparently killed about 50K. Thats a long way off from 2 million.

Imagine what it would be if the spike in suicide and overdoses caused by the lockdown weren’t in there as well.


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I have a cousin from Bartlesville, OK who just passed away from covid complications last night. He was 46 years old and healthy other than high blood pressure and a few extra pounds.

It seems that he expected to power thru covid, as I assume most of us think we would. After starting to have trouble breathing he went to the hospital and was put on a ventilator. Next to come was low blood pressure, which he was given drugs for. Then came pneumonia and blood clots. Blood thinners were administered, and a feeding tube started, with the pneumonia not improving. Finally, less than 48 hours after being admitted, he passed due to cardiac arrest.

While I in no way believe this means we should be in lockdown mode, I think this should serve as a cautionary tale to us all. If you do get covid, don't just assume you'll get through it the same as a flu. If you show symptoms, get help! Do not take chances and wait until it's too late.
 
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