Cleth / COC and rain

[MN_Chestnut]

So I sprayed today an acre of clover, 12 oz / AC + 30 oz crop oil 30 gals total.

It rained about 90 mins after I sprayed. The label says 1 hr. rain fast. I know the grass was dry before it rained, but I don't understand how it can enter the plant so fast, and didn't the rain wash it off?

Anyone have any experience with spraying and rain shortly after?

 

[yoderjac]

Every herbicide I've used that say rainfast in a certain time period really has been. That includes cleth. Keep in mind that the active ingredient in 2 products may be the same and one label says rainfast sooner than the other. I guess that has to do the surfactant and such. I don't know exactly why, but I would not worry about it if you had 90 minutes with a 1 hour rainfast product.

 

[MoBuckChaser]

Number 1, don't tell anyone you sprayed clover with cleth in any other states than Washington, Oregon or Idaho. It ain't legal to do in MN.

So now that we know you sprayed in the State of Washington. Rain fast guide lines are just that, guide lines. If you spray in the morning when the target weed is opening up and growing for the day, it may be taken into the plant faster than an hour. If you spray at night, when the weeds are shutting down for the evening, it may not get taken in well until the next day, ten hours later. That is when you can run the risk of a rain reducing some of the effectiveness. Otherwise, 90 minutes, you should be good!

 

[UP Powers]

12oz's seem very strong for an acre. I would have used 7. Cleth goes a long ways.

 

[WTNUT]

Is it illegal to just spray Clethodim on clover in MN? Or, is it illegal to spray it period? I looked briefly but could not find anything to explain with regard to MN.


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[WTNUT]

12oz's seem very strong for an acre. I would have used 7. Cleth goes a long ways.

The label says 6 - 16 ounces on clover. That is a wide swath so to speak. I thought it was 8-12. I also think I normally spray 8 oz per acre, but I can't remember crap without my farm notes. If I lose that notebook, God help us all.


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[yoderjac]

Is it illegal to just spray Clethodim on clover in MN? Or, is it illegal to spray it period? I looked briefly but could not find anything to explain with regard to MN.


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That may or may not be a bit overstated. If you look at the Cleth label, it is approved for sale for use on clover in only a few states. That does not necessarily mean it is illegal for an end user to spray it in states not listed. Each state has their own laws and I'm not at all familiar with MN. Doctors prescribe drugs for "off label" purposes all the time. We regularly use herbicides for "off-label" purposes. The thread on spraying gly on clover to suppress it and drilling brassica is one example. That does not make it illegal.

Some states do have laws about what can be sold and what can be applied in that state. So, it is possible that some states outlaw cleth application on clover, but most don't.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[MN_Chestnut]

Yes, Washington it was, my mistake :).

I have a 10gal ATV sprayer, I had to fill it three times, thats how it got to 12oz, with 39oz coc.

It was at about noon when I started spraying and it didn't rain till after 2:00.

Has anyone used Cleth around Apple / Pear trees? Lable says that it should be ok to do so.

Nothing said about Chestnut trees, anythoughts?

The reason I ask is that my Plot is lined with 28 Apple/Pear in 5' tree tubes, when I was spraying, I just ran right by them and didn't think anything of it, hope all is well in a couple of weeks.

Thanks all for the reply's

 

[yoderjac]

I have not directly sprayed it on trees, but I've sprayed fields with young seedlings growing in them. I have a wide variety of seedling trees including chestnuts. I've had no ill effects from drift like I have seen on occasion with gly. While I wouldn't spray cleth or any herbicide directly on my seedlings intentionally, being grass selective, I'd say cleth is pretty safe.

Some of the studies I've read suggest that controlling grass and competition within 5' of a seedling increases growth measurably.

Thanks,

jack

 

[MoBuckChaser]

Once again Jack has only limited info. The reason cleth is approved in 3 states only, is that is where most of the clover seed is grown. Very little acres of clover fields anywhere in the rest of the usa. Chemical company's do not want to go through the time and money to get Clethodium approved for a crop they will sell very little chemical for in certain states. Does not mean Cleth won't work in MN, WI or anywhere else, it just is not approved for use on that specific crop in any states other then the 3 listed above. It is the law, chemical inspectors in every state of the union would love to fine you for the unapproved use of a chemical, because it justifies their job!

 

[yoderjac]

Not all herbicides are treated the same. Some require an applicators license (at least in my state, I won't address yours) and others don't. Applying clethodim to a clover field won't get you fined in my state. I discuss use with state biologists all the time. I don't doubt your political/cost explanation of the labeling.

 

[WTNUT]

Mo,

Can you help me find the statute, rule or regulation you are relying upon to say Clethodim is not legal to use on clover in MN, and "approved in 3 states only"? I looked at FIFRA, 40 CFR 152.160 - 152.175 Restricted Use Pesticide classifications (RUPS), 40 CFR 180.458 (Clethodim; tolerances for residue) and some other regulations. This looks like a federal preemption issue; meaning the federal government regulates these products; but, states are not prohibited from passing statutes or adopting rules or regulations that are at least as stringent as the federal law. In this instance, Clethodim is an unclassified product (meaning it, like Glyphosate, can be sold to the general public and one does not have to be a "Certified Applicator" to purchase and use it. I can find no law that says a state has to pass a statute or promulgate a regulation or rule that is applicable to the specific federally regulated herbicide before it can be used in that state. Any help would be appreciated. I don't want to be breaking any environmental laws. Thanks.


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[MoBuckChaser]

Mo,

Can you help me find the statute, rule or regulation you are relying upon to say Clethodim is not legal to use on clover in MN, and "approved in 3 states only"? I looked at FIFRA, 40 CFR 152.160 - 152.175 Restricted Use Pesticide classifications (RUPS), 40 CFR 180.458 (Clethodim; tolerances for residue) and some other regulations. This looks like a federal preemption issue; meaning the federal government regulates these products; but, states are not prohibited from passing statutes or adopting rules or regulations that are at least as stringent as the federal law. In this instance, Clethodim is an unclassified product (meaning it, like Glyphosate, can be sold to the general public and one does not have to be a "Certified Applicator" to purchase and use it. I can find no law that says a state has to pass a statute or promulgate a regulation or rule that is applicable to the specific federally regulated herbicide before it can be used in that state. Any help would be appreciated. I don't want to be breaking any environmental laws. Thanks.


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Read any cleth label!

 

[MoBuckChaser]

 

[kabic]

This article also states off label application is illegal.

http://blog-horse-ask.extension.umn.edu/2012/06/what-can-i-do-about-off-label-herbicide.html?m=1

Edit: just read a label and it says:

It is a violation of Federal Law to use this product in a manner inconsistent with its labeling.

So I guess technically we breaking the law when using in unlabeled states.

 

[MoBuckChaser]

This article also states off label application is illegal.

http://blog-horse-ask.extension.umn.edu/2012/06/what-can-i-do-about-off-label-herbicide.html?m=1

Edit: just read a label and it says:

It is a violation of Federal Law to use this product in a manner inconsistent with its labeling.

So I guess technically we breaking the law when using in unlabeled states.

Technically Yes, but guys do it all the time. Being in the biz, I can tell everyone, in MN they love to fine people for using any chemical off label. It justifies the chemical inspectors job, and they are everywhere!

 

[Tree Spud]

So I sprayed today an acre of clover, 12 oz / AC + 30 oz crop oil 30 gals total.

It rained about 90 mins after I sprayed. The label says 1 hr. rain fast. I know the grass was dry before it rained, but I don't understand how it can enter the plant so fast, and didn't the rain wash it off?

Anyone have any experience with spraying and rain shortly after?

Sorry, I will jump ahead of the chemical, legal, patent, trademark, licensing discussion.

My experience is that cleth is slow to show results...3-4 weeks. Absortion by the plant has lots of variables.

Next time you may want to consider a spray of Glysophate as clover will recover (especially when you fertilize) and kill all grasses & weeds or mowing.

I have only used cleth where i have heavy stands of dense invasive grasses that are monocultures like canary grass.

 

[WTNUT]

Read any cleth label!

By gosh you are right Mo. That just does not make much sense, but that is exactly what it says.

I knew of a guy who literally went to prison for a short period of time after filling in a VERY SMALL cattle pond which the government considered a wetland.

Farm ponds later became exempt to a certain extent if my recollection is correct.




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[yoderjac]

When is a crop not a crop? When you don't harvest it or let livestock graze it. That makes it a non-crop. Cleth has instructions for non-crops as well.

NON-CROP OR NON-PLANTED AREAS

The following areas are considered non-crop or non-planted areas: rights-of-way including railroads, highways, roads, dividers, medians, pipelines, public utility lines, pumping stations, transformer stations and substations, around airports, electric utilities, commercial buildings, manufacturing plants, storage yards, rail yards, fence lines, parkways, and post-harvest croplands, also beneath greenhouse benches and around golf courses.

My food plots are not crops. In fact in my case, most are on a pipeline ROW specifically called out.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[MoBuckChaser]

I love the fact that the cliff clavins of this world will interpret the label to justify their own use of a product.

But since time began, people have been killing each other over the bible, which has been mis-interpreted since the start as well. LOL

The label clearly states NOTHING about food plots for deer, on right of ways, or non crop areas. So it can not be assumed by anyone other than the people that enforce the regulations for the local, state and federal governments on pesticides, that it can be used off label for that purpose. Plain and simple!