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MoBuckChaser
Guest
Always best to live in a state that has the least amount of Rules and Regulations, and MN ain't that state!
Cleth / COC and rain
- Thread starter MN_Chestnut
- Start date
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MoBuckChaser
Guest
MN has a whole division at the Minnesota Dept of Agriculture roaming our state showing up anywhere they want, when they want. ACI's have more power than law enforcement in this state! Trust me! LOL
WTNUT
5 year old buck +
This is really an interesting topic for me, because first I think Mo and Jack are both right in some ways (with Mo probably following the strictest standard which any inspector could follow ). I have practiced law for 25 plus years, had never looked at this issue before, but this is where I come down on it for MY PERSONAL BENEFIT - NOT YOURS. THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVISE. It seems Mo's fist explanation is spot on in that the manufacturers have not jumped through the hoops to get clover approved as a "crop" because so few states grow it as a "crop" (meaning seed production in the "strictest" sense. In a broader sense, one could argue red clover in hay is a "crop", but I don't really think that is what is intended). In either case, Clethodim is not a RUP (restricted use pesticide) so Joe Public can buy it at Rural King without an applicators license. But once you buy it, it is your duty to determine how it can be legally used in the sate in which it is being applied. Here is where the GREY area comes in. I did not look at every state, but looked at several and MN is certainly a heavily regulated state as MO stated. Other states are not. In my farm state, I do not need to have a license to apply it (keep in mind that even though it is not a RUP under federal regulations a state could create a regulation requiring one to obtain an applicators license to purchase and use it if the state determined there was a need for a state regulation). I doubt any state would for this product. In fact, that is highly unlikely at this point. Back to my farm state, I do not need a license nor do I need to keep any records of when, where or how I applied it. But, record keeping is "recommend" for private individuals using any herbicides or pesticides. Personally, I will not being keeping records to be used against me. When it comes to clover, if someone made a complaint to the State saying I was spraying Clethodim on a clover food plot, I would have a VERY STRONG argument in MY state that I had not applied the product to a "crop". However, BIG HOWEVER, it is always smart to remember that even when you win you may lose. If a rogue inspector provides you with a Notice of Violation after you have applied Clethodim and you win by getting the agency or state court to agree with your argument that clover foodplots are not crops, there is no guarantee the inspector (who now looks bad) will not visit you twice a month for the next several years. So Mo probably gave you good advice early on by saying now that we can establish that you applied it in Washington ..........
It kind of goes back to my first questions when I mentioned the guy who went to federal prison for essentially covering up a farm water hole used to water cattle. 99.9% of the time you could apply this product in most states and never have a single problem, but who wants problems. We have far too may government regulations and too many inspectors looking to justify their paycheck, so I am only going to apply Clethodim in Washington, Idaho or Oregon from now on - AND THAT IS A CRYING SHAME THAT WE HAVE TO THINK THAT WAY. Keep in mind that this next presidential election really is about who is going to be on our United States Supreme Court FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIVES and not about who is going to be president for the next four years (Presidents have term limits, Federal Judges do not).
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It kind of goes back to my first questions when I mentioned the guy who went to federal prison for essentially covering up a farm water hole used to water cattle. 99.9% of the time you could apply this product in most states and never have a single problem, but who wants problems. We have far too may government regulations and too many inspectors looking to justify their paycheck, so I am only going to apply Clethodim in Washington, Idaho or Oregon from now on - AND THAT IS A CRYING SHAME THAT WE HAVE TO THINK THAT WAY. Keep in mind that this next presidential election really is about who is going to be on our United States Supreme Court FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIVES and not about who is going to be president for the next four years (Presidents have term limits, Federal Judges do not).
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MoBuckChaser
Guest
It doesn't matter who is right or wrong, an inspector or a attorney can make your life miserable and expensive if they want, you of all people should know that!
The whole purpose of my first few original post's is a guy just needs to run under the radar and keep his mouth shut in life! Can cost you a lot of money when some idiot try's to challenge the system! The label on Cleth is very clear, 3 state's for clover, then it gets into the grey area that no one exactly knows about. If you get a lady inspector packing cotton the day she gets a complaint or stops by out of the blue, look out!
About 50% of all claims in MN end in a fine, and some can be huge!
The whole purpose of my first few original post's is a guy just needs to run under the radar and keep his mouth shut in life! Can cost you a lot of money when some idiot try's to challenge the system! The label on Cleth is very clear, 3 state's for clover, then it gets into the grey area that no one exactly knows about. If you get a lady inspector packing cotton the day she gets a complaint or stops by out of the blue, look out!
About 50% of all claims in MN end in a fine, and some can be huge!
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
Everyone assesses risk differently and makes judgments accordingly. Jeff was great to point out that depending where you are in the food chain, there is a different level of scrutiny and risk. I'll respect Mo and Jeff's assessment to Dealers and Licensed Applicators respectively.
Anyone can litigate for any reason and we all pay a price when it happens. There is even a bigger threat when the government is litigator and their pockets are virtually unlimited. On the other hand, if we play chicken little and fold every time the government is involved simply because we think someone with power may be having a bad day, we make the problem worse.
I'm very comfortable that I am operating well within the label bounds when applying Clethodim to my non-crop clover wildlife plots in my state. I am comfortable saying so and discussing it. Other food plotters can read the arguments in this thread along with the label and make their own assessment. I readily concede that there may be other states whose regulatory climate I don't understand. And WTNUT, I don't see anything wrong with the arguments in your or the conclusion you draw for your use.
It is kind of funny that I'm on this side of the argument since my use of herbicides in general has really diminished, my approach has focused much more on soil health and reduction in inputs(CNC related techniques), and an increased tolerance for weeds. I find very few situations where I'm using grass selective herbicides right now. I would contend Clethodim should be avoided, not because of any labeling issues, but because there are better and more sustainable approaches to food plotting.
Thanks,
Jack
Anyone can litigate for any reason and we all pay a price when it happens. There is even a bigger threat when the government is litigator and their pockets are virtually unlimited. On the other hand, if we play chicken little and fold every time the government is involved simply because we think someone with power may be having a bad day, we make the problem worse.
I'm very comfortable that I am operating well within the label bounds when applying Clethodim to my non-crop clover wildlife plots in my state. I am comfortable saying so and discussing it. Other food plotters can read the arguments in this thread along with the label and make their own assessment. I readily concede that there may be other states whose regulatory climate I don't understand. And WTNUT, I don't see anything wrong with the arguments in your or the conclusion you draw for your use.
It is kind of funny that I'm on this side of the argument since my use of herbicides in general has really diminished, my approach has focused much more on soil health and reduction in inputs(CNC related techniques), and an increased tolerance for weeds. I find very few situations where I'm using grass selective herbicides right now. I would contend Clethodim should be avoided, not because of any labeling issues, but because there are better and more sustainable approaches to food plotting.
Thanks,
Jack
Interesting topic, Yoder I'm wondering what approach you've been taking to contend with grass encroachment in your plots. If I remember correctly, you have your beans and corn mix so you might utilize Gly.
Kinda wondering what has worked and what hasn't. This year I've really been battling weeds. We've gotten over our yearly precipitation average and that was just into August and we get wet in oct. nov. and dec
Kinda wondering what has worked and what hasn't. This year I've really been battling weeds. We've gotten over our yearly precipitation average and that was just into August and we get wet in oct. nov. and dec
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
Just to keep this thread to Clethodim, I've started a new thread to address this broader question: http://www.habitat-talk.com/index.php?threads/an-evolving-approach-to-wildilfe-management.5975/
Thanks,
Jack
Alpha Doe
5 year old buck +
I would tell them that my food plots are not crops...according to NRCS they don't have any cropping history on those food plots. I guarantee you, if it did have a cropping history it would be in CRP. So, I guess I look at it and ask the question, how can it be a crop when it's not a crop and NRCS has the proof?
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MoBuckChaser
Guest
In My CRP ground I have food plots as allowed under the NRCS rules. There for a food plot is reported every year.
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MoBuckChaser
Guest
NRCS isn't leveling the fines, the ACI's say its a crop, its a crop!
