Can QDM make hunting harder?

[S.T.Fanatic]

I don’t think you took this thread anywhere it wasn’t going. :)

But (see my first post) I was hoping it would go somewhere else. Maybe I should start another thread.

Not what you hunt. But “when” you hunt and “how” you hunt. And why you hunted there, then?

I know over the last 15 years I’ve made some changes. One of which is not morning hunts. Lots of changes but if the rut isn’t on, I’m not getting out of bed.

But I may be wrong. Lots of deer go down in the morning.

I’ve gone from hunting every chance I could to only hunting from Halloween on. To really liking September.

I have no clue about many areas of the country. And I’m not really talking about killing huge deer. Just curious when, where, why and how it gets done.

I don't care to get dressed outside when it's 20 but I absolutely love hunting mornings. My sightings are much higher in the mornings (just talking the last five days of October and the first five days of November) I have a bit of a unique situation for my area but it produces. Our valley property is 80 acres surrounded on three sides by steep hillsides with a trout stream flowing through it coming from the South and the West joining approx. in the center. The bottoms are planted in prairie grasses and wild flowers with a fire break all the way around and a few other mowed paths for fire breaks and paths between two food plots. I have a tree stand on the stream bank right where the two forks meet. The deer naturally funnel down both stream channels and cross near my stand.

I know the Drurys and others preach hunting high in the morning and low in the afternoon but I do it the exact opposite. My theory is that the bucks are seeking/chasing does on top (where the "flat" ag fields are) all night long and when day breaks they push them down to the thick cover that is in the bottom where I hunt. My stand sticks out like a soar thumb but the deer dont seem to care. If I hunt our top 300 (straight South of the valley property divided by a 10 acre chunk) It is only in the afternoon or at the very least after the sun comes up. If I try to go out early morning I just jump a bunch of bedded deer laying in the harvested crop fields and usually don't see much after that.

In the past four years I past up an 18 pt 3y/o stud (never to be seen again other than the shed the neighbor found) a 3 y/o main frame 8 pt well into the 140's that we called Bob Mulley because he had a "bobbed" tail and had deep forked G2's like a mule deer. (never to be seen again) I passed on a 6.5 y/o 8 pt that might have scored 125" that we called Capt. Hook because of a unique hook coming off of his R G2 because I was hunting a nice 10 pt. The same morning I passed on a shot on a low 150's 10 pt (the one I was after) because what I considered to be a poor shot angle (harvested a couple days later by a neighbor kid and I was more than happy for him.) I underestimated the distance of a net boon 10 pt and hit low. I did not recover him. He was seen chasing does four days later on the neighboring property to the North and one of his sheds was found on another neighboring property to the South East. I never saw him again.

Every single one of those encounters were from the same stand over the past four years and every one of them was a morning sit all within the last 5 days of October and the first Five days of November. I look stupid sitting in that one tree in the wide open but it sure produce (opportunities anyway)

A close second would be afternoon hunts in early to mid December overlooking a soy bean plot when it is 0 or under. The problem with that though is getting out to the blind early enough before the deer are on the plot.

 

[roymunson]

Fifteen years ago, I bought my first 12 acres, built a cabin and a one acre food plot - and we killed a 148” deer - which is a giant for my area. Next year we killed a 132” ten pt. I bought another 38 acres a couple years later, and then some more a few years after that and so on - bought 40 acres this year. I now have about 410 acres - All contiguous except one 60 acre tract. Each year now, I have maybe a dozen food plots totaling over 30 acres - and we havent killed a deer over 125” in three years - where we used to average one a year - even when only owning 12 acres. We dont kill does and we only kill one or two bucks each year.

It is hard to overcome what happens off your property when only controlling 300/400 acres. Ten years ago, the local area had twice as many deer as we now have. Not overpopulated by any means. State relaxed the doe restrictions and the herd has been cut in half - with a corresponding half as many buck for the same population of hunters. The average age of my summer bachelor herd has dropped from 3.1 yrs old to about 2.3 years old. We killed two bucks last year - one was 4.5 and one 5.5 - both about 120” deer - and both had been wounded during the season at some time. Our one big deer (135”) went missing first day of modern gun season.

We do hold a lot of deer on my place, we see a lot of deer, and have a lot of younger bucks. But to be honest - if strictly hunting for a 125” deer - I could hunt the more restrictive public ground and have better luck than on my own ground. With all the time, expense, and effort that goes into my management activities and land purchase - it is not any better hunting for bigger bucks than it was with 12 acres and one food plot. I think with all the available food, it is less likely to be sitting on the right food plot that one time the big one shows up than when you have one plot that he visits more often.

But, it IS all about convenience - even though we dont kill more, we have easier hunting. Me, my wife, my son and his buddy dont have to fight for a spot on public. If all i did was deer hunt, i would be much better off just to join a good lease on some big ground, with better deer hunting (and probably more rules) and make several out of state hunts each year from the interest saved not buying the land. But, we duck hunt, too - and we have four duck holes on our ground. I squirrel and coon hunt with my dog. I hog hunt. We plant dove fields. And my land is my home - I live on it. And my house is a mile from the boat ramp on a 30,000 acre lake full of fish, frogs, and bow fishing opportunity.

I am not one to plant trees, and nwsg, and food plots just to see them grow. I have an acquanitance who hunts so he can justify his desire for planting and managing. I am the other way around - I plant and manage so my hunting is better. If deer in numbers would use my land with no planting - I wouldnt plant a seed or a tree - other than in my garden. If it were just about big deer, for me, I would own about ten acres and hunt public and join a good lease.

My land and work has resulted in more deer - but not more big deer. I know 400 acres is not enough land to grow big deer - but 30 acres of easy food might be enough to attract more deer - and maybe a big buck. We all do what we do for different reasons - that is what makes life so interesting. I think you just have to be realistic with your goals and expectations - as others have said - and make the best of YOUR situation.

So if this is true and I wanna kill big giant bucks, what does a person do?

forget the habitat and dump piles of corn?

I see your points. but man, isn't age structure the name of the game if you're in an area with big buck potential?

 

[SwampCat]

So if this is true and I wanna kill big giant bucks, what does a person do?

forget the habitat and dump piles of corn?

I see your points. but man, isn't age structure the name of the game if you're in an area with big buck potential?

Age structure is important when pursuing big bucks. We don't shoot bucks until they are 4.5 yrs old. For the most part, the antlers on our deer don't gain many, if any, inches between 4.5 and 5.5 - so we target 4.5 and 5.5 yr old bucks. Our 6.5 yr old deer will be on the way down, for the most part. So, yes - WE pass anything less than a 4.5 yr old buck, but the neighbors don't. I would guess about 25% of the 3.5 yr old bucks will show back up next year as a 4.5 yr old. We cant protect them on 350 acres - they ARE going to wander off, and most ARE going to get killed. That is a done deal. So, in my case, my emphasis is on providing as much easy, high quality food as I can. I have many times got pictures of bucks in bachelor herds that another landowner might get pictures of 2 or 3 miles away. I feel my best scenario is attracting bigger bucks from as far away as possible as opposed to saving all the bucks - which we do anyway - but passing them at 3.5 yrs old does not produce as many 4.5 yr old bucks as attracting them from as far away as possible. Every year we will have from two to four 4.5 yr old (or older bucks) - but most likely only one of them that was produced and passed on our ground. But, this may not work on a lot of ground. There is no row crop ag within ten miles. Nobody plants food plots. Hunters do put out bait, but easy, high quality food plots will usually attract more deer in my area than a corn pile. Last year, I had one bachelor herd of 16 bucks living on my acreage all summer. Passing bucks on my 350 acres did not result in that number of bucks in my food plots.

 

[SwampCat]

Just curious cat; have you noticed any gains from the start of your food plot program until now. You seem to have good data on your herd and I'm assuming you can't believe stats on your bucks in relation to food plots (as neighbors seem to be affecting them more than environment), but do have any wts or significant data on your doe herd? I'm curious if you have seen a benefit to your plots besides hunting?

Absolutely none. Even though the deer population in the overall area has probably fallen by 50% over the past five or six years, I have not documented an average gain in weight or any average gain in antler size per age group. That tells me even with more deer five years ago, we were not at carrying capacity back then, either - or I would have seen a gain in weight. My food plots attract more deer to my place, and support more deer on my place. To be honest, that is the only benefit I have noted. My fawn recruitment numbers are 20% higher than they used to be, but I believe there are a number of factors in play here, including the food plots.

 

[Bill]

(just talking the last five days of October and the first five days of November)

I'm with you there. I'll get out of bed on those days and even later into November. But early and late season I'm sleeping in.

Interesting take on hunting down. I try to avoid down but I know some killer spots like you describe. Not joining creeks but dry drainages that join which are worn to cattle trails at the crossings. I wonder if warming air thermals aren't helping you in the AM. Sending your scent up? I've sworn off hunting the holes. Seems like swirl always gets me.

I love hunting weather patterns (temp changes) but forecast shows no real changes in the 10 day. I'm not hunting now but my brother is lightly. It's that time of year "soon" where it turns to any stand anytime could produce so we hunt the wind.
You've got me rethinking those holes. Maybe a calm morning when I know the temps are rising

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

If I get a strait west wind I'm good, otherwise no wind is best. My theory is rising temps taking my scent trail up. However......During the chasing phase when they are running everywhere, what is a good wind anyway? At least in this valley they run all over. For reference this valley is (guestimating here) about 200 yrds at the narrowest part and 400 yrds at the widest part. Plus my stand is off the base of the hill about 75 yrds so I think that helps some to keep the wind a bit more predictable.

 

[Tree Spud]

If I get a strait west wind I'm good, otherwise no wind is best. My theory is rising temps taking my scent trail up. However......During the chasing phase when they are running everywhere, what is a good wind anyway? At least in this valley they run all over. For reference this valley is (guestimating here) about 200 yrds at the narrowest part and 400 yrds at the widest part. Plus my stand is off the base of the hill about 75 yrds so I think that helps some to keep the wind a bit more predictable.

Spot on ... I have stand locations on my properties where temps, wind direction, and all other factors will change over the course of 3-4 hours. When you try and interpret are you hunting does moving, does bedding, bucks feeding, bucks breaking up in groups, bucks searching/seeking, all deer feeding & needing water, bucks scent chasing beds, bucks locked, etc., etc. ... you tell me good wind?

I sat in my creek bottom stand this past Saturday & Friday which is the epitome of the classic mid season transitional strand. Best cold temps in 10 years we have had in mid Oct. Normally we see this time of Oct 60-80 deg F, we were night time in the 20's and daytime temps of 45-50 deg f . This stand locations is a major transitional stand from marsh, creek bottom bedding, to core buck movement area. Have a food plot in this stand site that transitions into the upper 4-5 acres of feeding food plots.

Saw 2 does in this stand those 2 four hour sits ... LOL! Normally I see 10-30 deer anywhere I sit on the property. Froze my azz off ... but understood that the incoming cold front was negated by the high winds which were 20-25 mph plus. The wind was at my back blowing in to the upper food plot main field and everything that comes from anywhere could not scent me ... perfect ... right? Even at the end of the day when the wind died down and the deer should be moving nada!

I would stop deer hunting and take up golf again for greater satisfaction; however, i quit golf because deer hunting was more predictable ...

Live to hunt another day ...

 

[Bill]

you tell me good wind?

When it’s blowing into your neighbors place it’s the perfect wind

That’s my theory anyway.

 

[Gator]

I'm with you there. I'll get out of bed on those days and even later into November. But early and late season I'm sleeping in.

Interesting take on hunting down. I try to avoid down but I know some killer spots like you describe. Not joining creeks but dry drainages that join which are worn to cattle trails at the crossings. I wonder if warming air thermals aren't helping you in the AM. Sending your scent up? I've sworn off hunting the holes. Seems like swirl always gets me.

I love hunting weather patterns (temp changes) but forecast shows no real changes in the 10 day. I'm not hunting now but my brother is lightly. It's that time of year "soon" where it turns to any stand anytime could produce so we hunt the wind.
You've got me rethinking those holes. Maybe a calm morning when I know the temps are rising

Just keep in mind those rising thermals don't start until later in the morning when the temps actually start to rise. Normally a couple hours after daylight around my part.

 

[Tree Spud]

Age structure is important when pursuing big bucks. We don't shoot bucks until they are 4.5 yrs old. For the most part, the antlers on our deer don't gain many, if any, inches between 4.5 and 5.5 - so we target 4.5 and 5.5 yr old bucks. Our 6.5 yr old deer will be on the way down, for the most part. So, yes - WE pass anything less than a 4.5 yr old buck, but the neighbors don't. I would guess about 25% of the 3.5 yr old bucks will show back up next year as a 4.5 yr old. We cant protect them on 350 acres - they ARE going to wander off, and most ARE going to get killed. That is a done deal. So, in my case, my emphasis is on providing as much easy, high quality food as I can. I have many times got pictures of bucks in bachelor herds that another landowner might get pictures of 2 or 3 miles away. I feel my best scenario is attracting bigger bucks from as far away as possible as opposed to saving all the bucks - which we do anyway - but passing them at 3.5 yrs old does not produce as many 4.5 yr old bucks as attracting them from as far away as possible. Every year we will have from two to four 4.5 yr old (or older bucks) - but most likely only one of them that was produced and passed on our ground. But, this may not work on a lot of ground. There is no row crop ag within ten miles. Nobody plants food plots. Hunters do put out bait, but easy, high quality food plots will usually attract more deer in my area than a corn pile. Last year, I had one bachelor herd of 16 bucks living on my acreage all summer. Passing bucks on my 350 acres did not result in that number of bucks in my food plots.

I am in the same position as you. We now focus on getting bucks to 4.5 years or older as we see 3-4 of those. We have a very large parcel as well with exceptional cover. Between the 2 neighbor properties, we have ~400-500 acres of great thick almost un-walkable swamp area between us which provides a natural sanctuary with great cover and a lot of browse food source. Our challenge is that we are in AG country so deer have lots of options at high quality food sources. Their natural daily feeding patterns mean they will move from our property to the neighbors and then back to ours for bedding. Unfortunately too many neighbors shoot anything with a horn and refuse to shoot a doe.

We have all of the elements & genetics for producing trophy class bucks and do; however, because of the shoot anything with horn philosophy of many of the neighbors, a 3.5 year buck is a lucky buck. I have at least one 6.5 year buck that calls our property home. Last year i had my 1st opportunity at him during gun; however, his left side was broken up so I passed. I have only seen him live a couple times, and has been a fun deer to try and hunt

This leads to our other issue and where a QDM approach needs to be part of the strategy. Our deer density in our hunting unit is listed by our DNR as ~ 56 dpsm. I have sat out during muzzleloader and watched 45-50 deer come out of our marsh into one of our large food plots in December. The doe to buck ratio is over 6:1.

While a high doe population can draw neighboring bucks during the rut, it also means the buck movement can be limited as they do not have to travel as far to find does. Too many does can over browse food sources and make it difficult for shrub & tree regeneration. Because of our deer density & hi doe to buck ratio, our DNR is actually considering a doe only hunting season as an option that has been recommended by some of the advisory boards in our unit.

There is no silver bullet easy answer to harvesting a trophy class buck. Management practices on your property need to be based on what you see on your & neighbor's property. If you don't have a disciplined approach, unlikely you will create the conditions that lead to the opportunity. If you don't encourage youngsters to shoot a doe and teach them the importance of mgmt for a balanced herd, they may never embrace it.

 

[SwampCat]

I am in the same position as you. We now focus on getting bucks to 4.5 years or older as we see 3-4 of those. We have a very large parcel as well with exceptional cover. Between the 2 neighbor properties, we have ~400-500 acres of great thick almost un-walkable swamp area between us which provides a natural sanctuary with great cover and a lot of browse food source. Our challenge is that we are in AG country so deer have lots of options at high quality food sources. Their natural daily feeding patterns mean they will move from our property to the neighbors and then back to ours for bedding. Unfortunately too many neighbors shoot anything with a horn and refuse to shoot a doe.

We have all of the elements & genetics for producing trophy class bucks and do; however, because of the shoot anything with horn philosophy of many of the neighbors, a 3.5 year buck is a lucky buck. I have at least one 6.5 year buck that calls our property home. Last year i had my 1st opportunity at him during gun; however, his left side was broken up so I passed. I have only seen him live a couple times, and has been a fun deer to try and hunt

This leads to our other issue and where a QDM approach needs to be part of the strategy. Our deer density in our hunting unit is listed by our DNR as ~ 56 dpsm. I have sat out during muzzleloader and watched 45-50 deer come out of our marsh into one of our large food plots in December. The doe to buck ratio is over 6:1.

While a high doe population can draw neighboring bucks during the rut, it also means the buck movement can be limited as they do not have to travel as far to find does. Too many does can over browse food sources and make it difficult for shrub & tree regeneration. Because of our deer density & hi doe to buck ratio, our DNR is actually considering a doe only hunting season as an option that has been recommended by some of the advisory boards in our unit.

There is no silver bullet easy answer to harvesting a trophy class buck. Management practices on your property need to be based on what you see on your & neighbor's property. If you don't have a disciplined approach, unlikely you will create the conditions that lead to the opportunity. If you don't encourage youngsters to shoot a doe and teach them the importance of mgmt for a balanced herd, they may never embrace it.

Coming from my neck of the woods, I find it odd that hunters will shoot any deer with a horn and pass any deer with an udder. These good ol southern boys down here dont distinguish between horns or udders - if it is legal, it is going in the freezer.

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

I am in the same position as you. We now focus on getting bucks to 4.5 years or older as we see 3-4 of those. We have a very large parcel as well with exceptional cover. Between the 2 neighbor properties, we have ~400-500 acres of great thick almost un-walkable swamp area between us which provides a natural sanctuary with great cover and a lot of browse food source. Our challenge is that we are in AG country so deer have lots of options at high quality food sources. Their natural daily feeding patterns mean they will move from our property to the neighbors and then back to ours for bedding. Unfortunately too many neighbors shoot anything with a horn and refuse to shoot a doe.

We have all of the elements & genetics for producing trophy class bucks and do; however, because of the shoot anything with horn philosophy of many of the neighbors, a 3.5 year buck is a lucky buck. I have at least one 6.5 year buck that calls our property home. Last year i had my 1st opportunity at him during gun; however, his left side was broken up so I passed. I have only seen him live a couple times, and has been a fun deer to try and hunt

This leads to our other issue and where a QDM approach needs to be part of the strategy. Our deer density in our hunting unit is listed by our DNR as ~ 56 dpsm. I have sat out during muzzleloader and watched 45-50 deer come out of our marsh into one of our large food plots in December. The doe to buck ratio is over 6:1.

While a high doe population can draw neighboring bucks during the rut, it also means the buck movement can be limited as they do not have to travel as far to find does. Too many does can over browse food sources and make it difficult for shrub & tree regeneration. Because of our deer density & hi doe to buck ratio, our DNR is actually considering a doe only hunting season as an option that has been recommended by some of the advisory boards in our unit.

There is no silver bullet easy answer to harvesting a trophy class buck. Management practices on your property need to be based on what you see on your & neighbor's property. If you don't have a disciplined approach, unlikely you will create the conditions that lead to the opportunity. If you don't encourage youngsters to shoot a doe and teach them the importance of mgmt for a balanced herd, they may never embrace it.

Sounds like you have a good opportunity to invite a bunch of buddies over and hold your own DOE ONLY muzzleloader season.

 

[Tree Spud]

Sounds like you have a good opportunity to invite a bunch of buddies over and hold your own DOE ONLY muzzleloader season.

We do. We also have a December holiday deer hunt weekend where the DNR allows a mid December doe only gun hunt. That's when I invite a number the young neighbor kids with their Dads, we have young boys & girls who are learning to hunt, and i will put them in our large deer blinds that are over food. It's a lot of fun and the kids come in all wide eyed and full of stories.

 

[Tree Spud]

Coming from my neck of the woods, I find it odd that hunters will shoot any deer with a horn and pass any deer with an udder. These good ol southern boys down here dont distinguish between horns or udders - if it is legal, it is going in the freezer.

Yep, for a while there, we and others were ... if it's brown, its down ... just fill the freezer.

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

Sounds like fun. How many does do you figure you harvest each year.

 

[yoderjac]

So if this is true and I wanna kill big giant bucks, what does a person do?

forget the habitat and dump piles of corn?

I see your points. but man, isn't age structure the name of the game if you're in an area with big buck potential?

The problem is scale. In order to have a measureable impact on the herd, you need to be able to influence the major factors. A deer's home range will vary with habitat. Typically it is smaller in the best habitat and larger in poor habitat. I would say a good average ballpark is 1,000 acres. So, let's say you have about 400 acres like we do. You will have few deer that spend most of their time on your property. You can increase that somewhat by habitat projects and food plots, but deer will spend much of their lives on neighboring properties. So, if you are letting young bucks walk and trying to harvest does to keep the population in balance and restore age structure, but your neighbors are shooting anything with antlers and letting does walk because they want more deer, your efforts will not have the desired effect. If you actually want to grow deer, you need to have enough scale. This could be owning 1,000+ acres yourself, or forming a cooperative with like-minded neighbors.

The second thing most folks don't understand is that you are limited by your dirt. Our food plots comprise a small fraction of a deer's overall diet. Most of their food comes from native foods. The primary purpose of food plots in a QDM strategy is either to provide quality food during gaps when nature is stingy or to attract does for management harvest. The bottom like is the fertility of your soils eventually limit your deer. QDM practices on a sufficient scale can help you get the most out of your deer herd but folks on poor soil will never produce deer like folks on fertile soil. If you look at P&Y or B&C books and map them, you will find a strong correlation with crop production. It is not the crops that make the big deer (although they don't hurt), it is the fact that we produce crops on the most fertile soil because it is more cost effective for farmers. It is the underlying soil fertility that supports the large deer.

The third thing many forget is sanctuary. You can make a place a deer paradise with habitat and food, but if it has lots of activity and hunting pressure and a nearby area is off-limits to humans for one reason or another, guess where the big bucks will spend most of their time during hunting season.

So, if you really want to shoot big bucks above all else, unless you have a big budget and lots of acreage, forget QDM. Spend your money on travel and hunting leases. Take B&C and P&Y records and start saving your money for scouting and eventually leasing land in those or nearby counties. On the other hand, if you enjoy habitat work and you like the idea of harvesting deer on you own land and want to give back to the sport that benefitted you, focus on improving your land and enjoying it. We all define success differently.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Tree Spud]

Sounds like fun. How many does do you figure you harvest each year.

For quite a while I was taking 2-4 does every year. Others would add 2-3 on to that total. We are in a transition now with the boys in college who have discovered other distractions, mainly beer & girls. We still take what we can eat or donate to the deer donation program.

 

[Tree Spud]

The problem is scale. In order to have a measureable impact on the herd, you need to be able to influence the major factors. A deer's home range will vary with habitat. Typically it is smaller in the best habitat and larger in poor habitat. I would say a good average ballpark is 1,000 acres. So, let's say you have about 400 acres like we do. You will have few deer that spend most of their time on your property. You can increase that somewhat by habitat projects and food plots, but deer will spend much of their lives on neighboring properties. So, if you are letting young bucks walk and trying to harvest does to keep the population in balance and restore age structure, but your neighbors are shooting anything with antlers and letting does walk because they want more deer, your efforts will not have the desired effect. If you actually want to grow deer, you need to have enough scale. This could be owning 1,000+ acres yourself, or forming a cooperative with like-minded neighbors.

The second thing most folks don't understand is that you are limited by your dirt. Our food plots comprise a small fraction of a deer's overall diet. Most of their food comes from native foods. The primary purpose of food plots in a QDM strategy is either to provide quality food during gaps when nature is stingy or to attract does for management harvest. The bottom like is the fertility of your soils eventually limit your deer. QDM practices on a sufficient scale can help you get the most out of your deer herd but folks on poor soil will never produce deer like folks on fertile soil. If you look at P&Y or B&C books and map them, you will find a strong correlation with crop production. It is not the crops that make the big deer (although they don't hurt), it is the fact that we produce crops on the most fertile soil because it is more cost effective for farmers. It is the underlying soil fertility that supports the large deer.

The third thing many forget is sanctuary. You can make a place a deer paradise with habitat and food, but if it has lots of activity and hunting pressure and a nearby area is off-limits to humans for one reason or another, guess where the big bucks will spend most of their time during hunting season.

So, if you really want to shoot big bucks above all else, unless you have a big budget and lots of acreage, forget QDM. Spend your money on travel and hunting leases. Take B&C and P&Y records and start saving your money for scouting and eventually leasing land in those or nearby counties. On the other hand, if you enjoy habitat work and you like the idea of harvesting deer on you own land and want to give back to the sport that benefitted you, focus on improving your land and enjoying it. We all define success differently.

Thanks,

Jack

Jack ... Great synopsis! As you like to take a scientific approach, what is your deer density in your hunting unit in terms of deer per square mile? What is the range of deer density per state unit?

Do I understand that Virginia has a limited native population and has "stocked" deer in much of the state?

 

[yoderjac]

Jack ... Great synopsis! As you like to take a scientific approach, what is your deer density in your hunting unit in terms of deer per square mile? What is the range of deer density per state unit?

Do I understand that Virginia has a limited native population and has "stocked" deer in much of the state?

I don't really keep up with the deer density estimates of the department. They are done on a county basis and we are near the corner of four counties so they don't do us much good. Our county was on the low side, but the deer densities on our farm were very high when we started. It is pretty intensive to get an accurate estimate of the local numbers. MSU has a protocol for a baited survey but we don't bait our cameras. What matters more to me for management purposes is the year to year trends which are much easier to track. So, that is what we use. We have EHD in our state and that can affect the densities pretty dramatically at the county level from year to year. Fortunately our farm has not shown any EHD cases.

The did do some stocking may years ago, but I doubt it was that much. Most of the deer are native as far as I know but I know there were some areas of the state that were stocked, mostly west of the Blue Ridge. From 1926-1992 there were only a total of around 4300 deer imported or translocated within the state. Doubt there is much stocking influence in the genetics of the deer in my part of the state. There are more historical details in the deer management plan if you are interested: https://www.dgif.virginia.gov/wp-content/uploads/virginia-deer-management-plan.pdf

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Catscratch]

The second thing most folks don't understand is that you are limited by your dirt. Our food plots comprise a small fraction of a deer's overall diet. Most of their food comes from native foods. The primary purpose of food plots in a QDM strategy is either to provide quality food during gaps when nature is stingy or to attract does for management harvest. The bottom like is the fertility of your soils eventually limit your deer. QDM practices on a sufficient scale can help you get the most out of your deer herd but folks on poor soil will never produce deer like folks on fertile soil. If you look at P&Y or B&C books and map them, you will find a strong correlation with crop production. It is not the crops that make the big deer (although they don't hurt), it is the fact that we produce crops on the most fertile soil because it is more cost effective for farmers. It is the underlying soil fertility that supports the large deer.

Thanks,

Jack

In your opinion, what exactly is missing from the soil that limits the size of antlers? I firmly believe that soil composition varies greatly throughout the country and has an affect on deer reaching maximum health. Poor soil can have many different definitions, but I would be willing to bet that most of them boil down to having too little or too much of certain minerals (or elements) that plants need for proper growth and nutrient production. Isn't that the first identifier of soil fertility... to look at a chunk of land and observe the vegetation, or lack of vegetation? I know this questioning stems from the Redmond Salts thread (where we disagreed on this) and I don't want it to turn into what it did, but since it's been brought back up I would like to know more of your thoughts on it.