Can QDM make hunting harder?

[Baker]

If these places rely on deer for producing an income I can at least understand the desire to do it.

Obviously I can't speak to all of Texas or Mexico but I can speak to my circumstance. I get no money from deer, just an enormous amount of joy. And for that joy I am willing to invest in their health , growth and sustainability.

Interestingly, to your post above where my ranch is may be one of the last places in North America that has a truly native deer herd and habitat.Non native deer have never been introduced which is almost nonexistent anywhere else. Nothing grows there but the native brush species that have been there since buffalo were removed and the prairies reverted to brush. And QDM works as well there as anywhere else

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

Out of curiosity how has that massive area that was burned off bounce back? I'd be willing to bet that it is better than ever. Is it also seeing the return of some of it's native plant community?

 

[Baker]

Out of curiosity how has that massive area that was burned off bounce back? I'd be willing to bet that it is better than ever. Is it also seeing the return of some of it's native plant community?

I can't answer that but I suspect it varies depending on the management practices of the individual landowners. Appreciate the desert doesn't respond to wildfire like areas of better rain fall.

 

[FarmerDan]

I wish I had something to offer.....(:<)

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

Sorry for the derailment. Board at work.

 

[yoderjac]

Baker, I certainly understand the desire to use supplemental feed. As you point out, in some extreme cases, it can be the bridge to a recovering herd. There can also be some pretty dramatic negative outcomes. I think there are probably some extreme areas where the positives may outweigh the negatives. I think I'd consider it a last resort and knowing you, you've considered all the angles for your situation.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Baker]

Baker, I certainly understand the desire to use supplemental feed. As you point out, in some extreme cases, it can be the bridge to a recovering herd. There can also be some pretty dramatic negative outcomes. I think there are probably some extreme areas where the positives may outweigh the negatives. I think I'd consider it a last resort and knowing you, you've considered all the angles for your situation.

Thanks,

Jack

I have to check out for a few hours so can't reply till tonight but I would like for you to explain in detail the " pretty dramatic negative outcomes" and especially note any specific experiences not just theory. And if appropriate to shift this to another thread or pm your call.

For my part I will elaborate on my experiences supplemental feeding both in La. and in Mexico. and the outcomes I have observed along with the input of some of the best whitetail scientists in the business.

 

[Catscratch]

I get it (supplemental feeding). I don't feed, but if I had the right circumstances I would. I suspect (in all honesty) that most of us would admit that growing bigger deer is at least part of our land and plot management programs. This very thing is mentioned constantly on this site and even in this thread, but through plant/soil management instead of pellets. Given the efforts we put into land management it makes since that providing that nutrition through feed would be prolific if not for cost, effort, or stigma. I'm pretty much ok with feeding as I do it with cattle all the time so it's not associated with bad vibes. Even in periods of good plant growth, feed is given to steers and heifers to facilitate wt gains. Minerals are also given to help with wt gains but also to help prevent disease such as foot rot (foot rot is a bacterial infection associated with deficiencies of zinc, selenium and copper). I would like to do it just to actually see the potential of deer on my place. I have a strong feeling that deer could get much bigger than they do here... otherwise I wouldn't spend so much time trying to facilitate better nutrition and age.

 

[Catscratch]

Epigenetics is an amazing topic!

For anyone interested in a short but insightful read on it google "epigenetics the sins of the father".

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

I have no need nor desire to feed and I dont plant plots because I think it is going to make the deer bigger. I would have to say though that since we started plotting the bucks are on average 5-10" larger. Our surrounding area produces 200" bucks every year. I'm plotting to try to keep them around and because once the combines are parked in the shed and the black dessert returns there isn't much other than a few left over acorns and sticks. (I guess there is alfalfa fields but its brown and snow covered)

 

[Catscratch]

I have no need nor desire to feed and I dont plant plots because I think it is going to make the deer bigger. I would have to say though that since we started plotting the bucks are on average 5-10" larger. Our surrounding area produces 200" bucks every year. I'm plotting to try to keep them around and because once the combines are parked in the shed and the black dessert returns there isn't much other than a few left over acorns and sticks. (I guess there is alfalfa fields but its brown and snow covered)

I should have said that I don't think everyone would feed if they could. I knew from previous posts that you in particular would have no desire to feed and I didn't want to include you in my broad stroke statement (which I kind of did by not leaving you out). Sorry about that. I do think that the motives for a lot of us is to create habitat that produces bigger deer, and that could lend itself to feeding if it were easier and cheaper to do.

 

[SwampCat]

I have considered supplemental protien feeding from Mar - Aug in an effort to offset failed plantings of other high protien food sources. I had all of my durana clover killed by spring floods. All of my spring soybean planting (18 acres) failed due to drought and hog damage. I was able to offer nothing to my deer herd in the way of supplemental planting this spring and summer. My deer may eat a good bit of native vegetation spring and summer - but when I have beans and clover - they spend literally hours each day feeding in those plots. I dont know how many hours a day deer spend feeding, but I have documented some of my bucks spending between three and four hours each day in my food plots during the summer. I would guess in that length, they are probably getting most of their daily food requirements from those food plots.

Supplemental feeding interests me because it would provide available high protien food in spite of conditions outside my control. I know it is hard to apply quantitative differences on many things we do - but my fawn recruitment numbers dropped 33% this year - and the only thing I noticed being different was the lack of my provided high protien food plots - although I doubt that explains the total decrease in fawns.

A question for Baker - do you think a ready supply of high protien food plots - beans and clover - can supply the same benefits as supplemental feeding of high protien pellets.

Some of the best, healthiest, potential acheiving deer herds in the country are located in Texas where the supplemental feeding of deer has been taken to a new level. I dont believe that supplemental feeding is having much of s detrimental affect on the deer herd - or they would quit doing it - as many make a substantial portion of their living off of it.

 

[yoderjac]

I have to check out for a few hours so can't reply till tonight but I would like for you to explain in detail the " pretty dramatic negative outcomes" and especially note any specific experiences not just theory. And if appropriate to shift this to another thread or pm your call.

For my part I will elaborate on my experiences supplemental feeding both in La. and in Mexico. and the outcomes I have observed along with the input of some of the best whitetail scientists in the business.

Well, there are a couple of potential negative outcomes depending on the method. One is disease. This increases when point source feeding is done. You find less potential for increased disease spread when the supplemental food is distributed. Another aspect is sustainability. When we artificially increase the BCC through things like food plots, if/when we stop, the change is somewhat slow. The fields that produced crops begin producing forbs and early successional habitat. Slowly over time the deer herd adapts to the changes as it does to other changes in the habitat. When we use supplemental feed, deer herds can become dependent and if we stop, deer populations can crash.

I know you are way passed this point in understanding deer and I'm sure you've weighted these considerations and none of us generally plan to build deer up and cut them off. I through out these cautions for the many readers who are more casual participants in deer management. This can be the very outcome we are trying to avoid with QDM. For example, in my area yearling buck weights are directly tied to the acorn crops the previous fall. A nearby military base where I volunteer does mast crop estimates each year and plots them against yearling buck weights. The correlation is amazing. So, when I'm looking to plant for fall/winter here, I'm looking to protect against mast crop failure years. Sure, deer use our plots even during heavy mast crops, but mostly at night and way less than in poor mast crop years when they hammer the plots and risk being shot by hunters during daylight.

You know much more and have much more experience with supplemental feeding. I know it is something I want to avoid because there are better ways to achieve the results in my climate. The whether to feed and how to feed are decisions where you want professionals involved to evaluate your specific situation and I know you've done that. There are hotspots of EHD here where baiting (illegal but still done) is heavy. Baiting is not necessarily done like supplemental feeding and not with the same intent, but when point source food is involved, risks can be similar.

Having said that, every habitat decision we make has both risks and rewards as well. In all cases, it is a matter of understanding them and making the best decision we can. Folks of good conscience can weigh risks and rewards differently and every region has it's unique factors.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[TreeDaddy]

but I can speak to my circumstance. I get no money from deer, just an enormous amount of joy. And for that joy I am willing to invest in their health , growth and sustainability.

Ditto.....I don't even hunt them.......Way more fun to keep bees and plant trees

Besides,I'm too busy field dressing what the wife and kids kill

bill

 

[Gator]

For example, in my area yearling buck weights are directly tied to the acorn crops the previous fall. A nearby military base where I volunteer does mast crop estimates each year and plots them against yearling buck weights.

How does one get yearling buck weights in a QDM program? Youth hunters maybe?

 

[yoderjac]

How does one get yearling buck weights in a QDM program? Youth hunters maybe?

That data did not come from a QDM program. We are way too small. The biologist that runs our DMAP says our fawn weights are increasing but I don't think we harvest enough fawns on our land to have a statistically significant sample. Maybe our program is working some or maybe he is just trying to be encouraging. We are on the ratty edge of having sufficient scale.

When I was talking about the relationship between yearling buck weights and acorns, I was talking about our general area of the state where we have a mix of hardwoods, fields, and pines verses the eastern shore or west of the blue ridge. That data came from a military base that does not have antler restrictions. I'm a conservation volunteer there. They do a lot of management on that base. Every deer harvested is weighed and they kill a lot of deer. The identified and marked individual oak trees across the base. Each year, they send volunteers to use binoculars to count acorns on a subsection of each tree and then use the size of the tree and some math to develop a rough estimate of acorn production for the year. When you look at the curves of yearling buck weights and acorn production, they look very similar and are offset by one year.

I'm fairly certain that this relationship holds true for our general area of the state where the habitat and climate are similar. The relationship may be even stronger west of the blue ridge where acorns are an even larger factor.

I was trying to use that as an example. I know acorn crops are a major driver for the health (as measured by body weight) of deer in our general area. I also know that acorn crops in our area can vary widely from year to year. So, if I'm trying to set up a food plot program for QDM, an acorn crop failure is a gap in nature that has a major impact on my deer, so I want to target my crops to cover that gap. Another gap we have is in the dead of summer for a short period. Folks up north may not have this issue and folks further south may have it worse. There is often a time period in the summer where native foods dry up. Sure there is always enough food to keep deer alive, but the quality of that food drops of significantly during that period. So, that is another gap I try to fill.

These gaps don't occur every year. In some years when we have good summer rain, our native foods may be high quality all summer, but I can't count on it. From spring green-up until the dead of summer, we are blessed with fairly consistent rain, and our native foods abound. I don't worry about feeding deer during this period. Instead, I use this period to focus on soil health and getting ready for fall. If I were to focus on having high quality food plots during this time, none of my time or money would have a real impact on the herd.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Gator]

Thanks Jack for clarifying. Deer should be fat and happy going into winter this year for sure! The base I hunt has a 3pt on one side plus 15" inside rule or 4.5 years old and the lease I'm on has very similar rules so I just don't see many yearling bucks killed. Dog hunters are about the only ones I see that from.

 

[roymunson]

Call me ignorant, but what are the negatives of supplemental feed in the real world? Ohio has allowed it for as long as I've been in the woods and we haven't had any noticeable problem in with our herd. I know in studies and some instances it can lead to weird things in a herd, but those are literally less than 1% of the situations.

I'd say you're probably more likely to fall out of your treestand, statistically, than to have a disease outbreak from supplemental feeding

 

[H20fwler]

I feed year round, primarily shelled corn. It doesn’t just benefit deer on my properties it benefits all kinds of wildlife. The deer population here is low so disease spread is not much of a worry, I live in a very high ag area and for most of the year there is lots for everything to eat. I also plant food plots and every type of tree or shrub that can benefit wildlife along with digging ponds and planting bedding cover.
I definitely feed and put out minerals to draw wildlife to my property and hold them besides keeping everything fat and sassy. With the selective harvest we do I think we are saving more deer from the brown and down crowd that would be harassed and stressed if they didn’t have a sanctuary to live in with plenty of everything they need.
And I don’t care if we shoot a big buck or not, it’s nice but it’s way down the list on my land management plans. Seeing wildlife and being a good steward to the land is my #1 goal.

 

[FarmerDan]

Oh goodness! There's such a lot of good information....and speculation in this thread. And, there's a lot of assertion (false facts) that won't hold up upon close inspection. My problem is, I cannot tell the difference!

Back in the early 1980's Jimmy Carter was running for president. I remember one political cartoon. It had three frames. One had Jimmy Carter. One had George Washington. One had Richard Nixon. The bubble text connected from each one:

George Washington: I cannot tell a lie!
Richard Nixon: I cannot tell the truth!
Jimmy Carter: I cannot tell the difference!

I wish someone would summarize all the points in a simple list. Then, we should vote on each point without discussion, TRUE or FALSE! Let's put some smiley faces in here to lighten the moment.

The idea of habitat management seems simple to me. But, we've made it way too complicated - not for you practitioners individually. Reading you masters is fascinating, and sometime instructive. Sometimes.

Let's skip the over that part. I do have two serious questions for any takers.

Supplemental feeding. Just as background, I don't do it, I won't do it. For my situation, I think it unnecessary. However, I am curious. I have had a dairy herd and a beef cow-calf operation. I'm familiar with cattle feeding, the reasons for supplementation, and the delivery methods. I don't understand how - or what - supplemental feed you offer a deer. Is there a special blend formulated for this? And how do you know how to formulate the feed to "top-off" the required nutrition?

Feeding cattle or dairy cows, one holds close control over what's offered, and we know with some certainty what our homegrown feeds supply in relation to nutrition, and supplement accordingly. We also know which of our cattle need what level of supplementation based on their production - be it milk production in relation to the gestation cycle, or weight gain over specific periods compared to expectations and comparisons to other like animals in the herd.

And what about the palatability of supplemental feed? How do you assure the supplemental feed is something a deer will stick its nose into?

Thoughts?

Soils.
There have been many comments about quality soils and growing bruiser bucks. If I've read correctly "we" believe there is a cause and effect action here, that good soils cause big bucks. Maybe that's a little too simple, but i believe it frames my question. Ummm, correlation does not prove causation. But, i have an open mind an am seeking enlightenment of this issue - about how good soils cause big bucks.

Happy Friday and a here's hope for a heart racing weekend of chase! I thinks its a washout here in central Virginia!