Can QDM make hunting harder?

[yoderjac]

I practice QDM on my home property - We kill our deer and stock the freezer on another piece of my property, on our deer lease, or public - best of both worlds

This is an interesting approach, but it wouldn't work well for me. It takes scale to practice QDM and that is a lot of work, at least given the conditions here. There is a satisfaction factor I get when harvesting any deer from the land we manage. Having a base of operations on the hunting property is a real advantage especially as I get older. Any time I spend hunting elsewhere is time I'm not hunting on our land. I can see how this approach can work for some folks depending on their circumstances but it wouldn't work well for me.

Some other good post here as well. The top x% and "not comparing deer" are things we attempting as well. We don't restrict by specific antler size or configuration and only measure antlers as part of our DMAP reporting to the state. We don't use B&C or P&Y type measurements, just a few indicators our game department uses. We try to target bucks by age. Antlers play a role in that but there are other factors. We shoot to harvest 3 1/2 and older deer. We pull every jawbone and have it aged by our game department biologists. We then record ages. It takes about a year to get our age estimate data back so we look backward at the deer we shot the previous year to see how we did.

Since 2008 we have only killed 3 bucks that were 3 1/2 or older. We have made 11 mistakes shooting bucks that the hunter thought were 3 1/2 or older and aged out at 2 1/2. Personally I've harvested one of the target age class bucks and made two of the mistakes. One of my mistakes was during firearm season when a buck was moving and stopping at a distance and I didn't have time to glass him. I made a quick decision based on the rack and picked a hole in the brush and fired when to stepped into it. The other was during archery. It was late and light was low. The deer was close but was behind cover I could see the rack but never the entire rack at once from multiple angles. I had a small shooting lane and I knew I would not have time to evaluate the deer in the shooting lane if he stopped so I made the decision to shoot and focused on the shot and ignored the rack when he hit the lane.

I've also made one mistake in the other direction. I had a nice deer within bow range (20 yards). It looked like a close call and I decided not to shoot. When he passed by and lifted his head and I could clearly see the width of the rack, I knew I just passed up an older buck.

This all leads to an ethical question. In a case under QDM type guidelines, does our focus on assessing the age of the deer distract from our focus on making the shot, especially during archery? Are we passing the best shot or a good but less than optimal shot because we are assessing? While I have lost a few deer due to other factors, none of them were bucks or due to assessment. Shooting deer that we can't recover is part of hunting but we should do all we can to minimize it. Just some more food for thought.


Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Really can't disagree more. Deer camp shouldn't be rigorously regulated and strict. Rules are not fun to kids. Has zero to do with respect. Kids look for activities that are enjoyable, and so do parents, and those activities often involve spending time with said children. The only rules should be 1. Stay safe and 2. Don't do anything illegal. I won't put "have fun" as a rule, because mandatory fun isn't actually enjoyable. If you're wanting everyone who uses your property to bow and kiss the ring, you'll find that the line will be very short and you'll end up hunting huge bucks by yourself.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

While I get your point, there are two sides to the coin and it really depends on who you are dealing with. A son or daughter can be 12 years old or 30 years old. In a few cases, I've met 16 and 17 year old kids that were very experienced and accomplished hunters that started quite young. I also know 50 year old folks that are just now getting into hunting.

Perhaps we should try to classify folks as novice, intermediate, or experienced hunters rather than by age. Most hunters go through different stages. They often start just wanting to shoot something...anything. I've taken kids squirrel hunting who wanted to shoot at a woodpecker because they had not seen a squirrel in an hour. It was hard for them not to shoot and if I had not been there they probably would have. Young hunters seem to grow out of this quickly and then move into the "tagging out" stage. The challenge seems to move from numbers to size next where they want to shoot the biggest. As we get older, what we harvest seems to carry less importance than the experience. Some folks move beyond this looking at giving back to the sport that gave them so much.

Where a person is in that journey often affects how they respond to rules or guidelines. Certainly with novice hunters we should be encouraging participation in the sport.

Now for the other side of the coin. Our guidelines are pretty flexible but we had one case that needed action. One of our members invited a guest. He was in his late 20's and bragged about his hunting abilities and all the big bucks he has shot over the years. He presented himself as an experienced hunter. He new and understood our harvest policy yet he shot multiple 1 1/2 year old bucks. They were bucks like a basket 10 point. The exact kind of buck you want to let walk. This was not a case of not having time to make a good choice. He described many of the hunts and he shot deer in open food plots that were calmly feeding. It is not easy to distinguish between a large 2 1/2 year old deer and a smaller 3 1/2 year old deer on our property and those mistakes are understandable. However, even our young kids can tell a 1 1/2 year old buck from a 3 1/2 year old buck even though we encourage them to shoot what they want. This guy was a guest who simply did not respect his host. Eventually we had to ask the inviting member to have a heart to heart with him.

Just one more thing to add here. Sometimes, with teenagers, it is about the hunting guidelines, and sometimes it is about something else that is going on in their lives.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[FarmerDan]

While I get your point, there are two sides to the coin and it really depends on who you are dealing with. A son or daughter can be 12 years old or 30 years old. In a few cases, I've met 16 and 17 year old kids that were very experienced and accomplished hunters that started quite young. I also know 50 year old folks that are just now getting into hunting.

Perhaps we should try to classify folks as novice, intermediate, or experienced hunters rather than by age. Most hunters go through different stages. They often start just wanting to shoot something...anything. I've taken kids squirrel hunting who wanted to shoot at a woodpecker because they had not seen a squirrel in an hour. It was hard for them not to shoot and if I had not been there they probably would have. Young hunters seem to grow out of this quickly and then move into the "tagging out" stage. The challenge seems to move from numbers to size next where they want to shoot the biggest. As we get older, what we harvest seems to carry less importance than the experience. Some folks move beyond this looking at giving back to the sport that gave them so much.

Where a person is in that journey often affects how they respond to rules or guidelines. Certainly with novice hunters we should be encouraging participation in the sport.

Now for the other side of the coin. Our guidelines are pretty flexible but we had one case that needed action. One of our members invited a guest. He was in his late 20's and bragged about his hunting abilities and all the big bucks he has shot over the years. He presented himself as an experienced hunter. He new and understood our harvest policy yet he shot multiple 1 1/2 year old bucks. They were bucks like a basket 10 point. The exact kind of buck you want to let walk. This was not a case of not having time to make a good choice. He described many of the hunts and he shot deer in open food plots that were calmly feeding. It is not easy to distinguish between a large 2 1/2 year old deer and a smaller 3 1/2 year old deer on our property and those mistakes are understandable. However, even our young kids can tell a 1 1/2 year old buck from a 3 1/2 year old buck even though we encourage them to shoot what they want. This guy was a guest who simply did not respect his host. Eventually we had to ask the inviting member to have a heart to heart with him.

Just one more thing to add here. Sometimes, with teenagers, it is about the hunting guidelines, and sometimes it is about something else that is going on in their lives.

Thanks,

Jack

Why are you not out hunting?

Heck, why am I not out hunting?

 

[yoderjac]

Why are you not out hunting?

Heck, why am I not out hunting?

I took off all week to hunt. I had deer all over me for two evenings when that cold front first came through and then no matter where I hunted, the deer were active elsewhere. Other guys came down to the farm to hunt last night. I decided to come home after the hunt last night and leave the woods to them on the weekend. I'll work for the first part of next week at least and assess the weather before taking more time off to hunt.

I certainly feel myself getting older. I took 13 apple trees I grafted and grew in rootmakers on my deck this summer to the farm to plant. I had all week to do it during the mid-day's but was just too lazy to do it. I'll have to push myself to do that next time I go down to hunt but I've got to get them in the ground before we get a hard frost.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Tree Spud]

Really can't disagree more. Deer camp shouldn't be rigorously regulated and strict. Rules are not fun to kids. Has zero to do with respect. Kids look for activities that are enjoyable, and so do parents, and those activities often involve spending time with said children. The only rules should be 1. Stay safe and 2. Don't do anything illegal. I won't put "have fun" as a rule, because mandatory fun isn't actually enjoyable. If you're wanting everyone who uses your property to bow and kiss the ring, you'll find that the line will be very short and you'll end up hunting huge bucks by yourself.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

LOL!!! Wow ... thanks for the lecture on your rules. As neither of us stated any rules, you might actually what was read instead of judging what you mis-interpreted.

Thanks 'Spud. There's never enough time, or space - or interest in the story to tell all of it. When my son was a teenager it absolutely twisted him into knots to let a buck walk...but he did. All the while, I'm trying to help him understand it's necessary to have a set of values to guide your actions through life. What we value while in the field is only part of the equation. You're right, compromising begins to diminish one's values to the point of enabling bad behavior. That's neither here nor there so far as habitat management is concerned. But, comprise is sometimes necessary to maintain some sense of social order be it with a family or a society. Our compromise was to find another place to hunt where, right or wrong, if it was brown it was down. So, he had two ways to think about outdoors and sportsmanship. I admit, I sometimes leave out parts of the story to make a point. And, my point was, don't let QDM ruin the social structure or your relationships with people you adore, admire, and love. QDM is just part of it, but I've come to believe our passions for the sport are a reason for the decline of participation among youth. We have to build that passion. It takes a long time to do that. My other peeve is taking kids into the hunt a too young an age. A story and rant for another time.

The difficulty and requirements of the hunt are only part of the reason my son quit....if only temporarily. He's back! In between he went off to college, got a degree, and voluntarily spent a year in Afghanistan. He came back alive (nearly didn't), got married (a city girl), and had a child. Oh, he bought a house, too. He works for the Department of the Army at the Pentagon, a good two hour drive from the farm. Life sometimes intercedes. This year he said he had to get back into it because, if he didn't "she" would never let him get away for a day!

I think he has a new appreciation for some of the QDM values. I'm lucky. Sometimes it doesn't work out that way...

TD ... thanks for sharing, this is important stuff. Be careful though , you are going to upset the Helicopter Dads here by telling them that you want to be a parent rather than a friend.

Sounds like you deiced to introduce your kids to the sport, experience, and then set some boundaries, expectations, and responsibilities to move forward.

All of the youngsters that come to hunt with us get exposed to a full Monty of of what you described above. My nephew who started hanging out with me at age 8, now he has full run of everything. he is in college so too many other fun things to focus on, it will will be his place someday and I am cool with how well he understands what is required here. I have many other youngsters with neighbors who enjoy our property.

It took me until I was 30 to realize what my Dad was right about. He was a hammer and demanded high expectations to everything we did. I am very glad I finally made it work with him .... best 8 years as he died 8 years later.

As I said, don't worry about the parents who obsess and are more worried about their kids having fun, being a friend is easy, being a parent is hard.

 

[SwampCat]

This is an interesting approach, but it wouldn't work well for me. It takes scale to practice QDM and that is a lot of work, at least given the conditions here. There is a satisfaction factor I get when harvesting any deer from the land we manage. Having a base of operations on the hunting property is a real advantage especially as I get older. Any time I spend hunting elsewhere is time I'm not hunting on our land. I can see how this approach can work for some folks depending on their circumstances but it wouldn't work well for me.

Some other good post here as well. The top x% and "not comparing deer" are things we attempting as well. We don't restrict by specific antler size or configuration and only measure antlers as part of our DMAP reporting to the state. We don't use B&C or P&Y type measurements, just a few indicators our game department uses. We try to target bucks by age. Antlers play a role in that but there are other factors. We shoot to harvest 3 1/2 and older deer. We pull every jawbone and have it aged by our game department biologists. We then record ages. It takes about a year to get our age estimate data back so we look backward at the deer we shot the previous year to see how we did.

Since 2008 we have only killed 3 bucks that were 3 1/2 or older. We have made 11 mistakes shooting bucks that the hunter thought were 3 1/2 or older and aged out at 2 1/2. Personally I've harvested one of the target age class bucks and made two of the mistakes. One of my mistakes was during firearm season when a buck was moving and stopping at a distance and I didn't have time to glass him. I made a quick decision based on the rack and picked a hole in the brush and fired when to stepped into it. The other was during archery. It was late and light was low. The deer was close but was behind cover I could see the rack but never the entire rack at once from multiple angles. I had a small shooting lane and I knew I would not have time to evaluate the deer in the shooting lane if he stopped so I made the decision to shoot and focused on the shot and ignored the rack when he hit the lane.

I've also made one mistake in the other direction. I had a nice deer within bow range (20 yards). It looked like a close call and I decided not to shoot. When he passed by and lifted his head and I could clearly see the width of the rack, I knew I just passed up an older buck.

This all leads to an ethical question. In a case under QDM type guidelines, does our focus on assessing the age of the deer distract from our focus on making the shot, especially during archery? Are we passing the best shot or a good but less than optimal shot because we are assessing? While I have lost a few deer due to other factors, none of them were bucks or due to assessment. Shooting deer that we can't recover is part of hunting but we should do all we can to minimize it. Just some more food for thought.


Thanks,

Jack

I am fortunate that I own 60 acres of land next to a restrictive NWR and also the only row crop in the county. Because of the adjacent land with restrictive regulations -mainly bow hunt only and 600 acres of soybeans - there is an abundance of deer traveling through my sixty acres - only a ten minute drive from my home ground. This acreage allows us to fill our freezers and our desire to get blood on our hands - but not affect how we manage our home ground. Really the best of both worlds.

 

[TreeDaddy]

I took off all week to hunt.

I take off all week so that my wife,kids can hunt

november is prime time tree planting season here

bill

 

[roymunson]

LOL!!! Wow ... thanks for the lecture on your rules. As neither of us stated any rules, you might actually what was read instead of judging what you mis-interpreted.


TD ... thanks for sharing, this is important stuff. Be careful though , you are going to upset the Helicopter Dads here by telling them that you want to be a parent rather than a friend.

Sounds like you deiced to introduce your kids to the sport, experience, and then set some boundaries, expectations, and responsibilities to move forward.

All of the youngsters that come to hunt with us get exposed to a full Monty of of what you described above. My nephew who started hanging out with me at age 8, now he has full run of everything. he is in college so too many other fun things to focus on, it will will be his place someday and I am cool with how well he understands what is required here. I have many other youngsters with neighbors who enjoy our property.

It took me until I was 30 to realize what my Dad was right about. He was a hammer and demanded high expectations to everything we did. I am very glad I finally made it work with him .... best 8 years as he died 8 years later.

As I said, don't worry about the parents who obsess and are more worried about their kids having fun, being a friend is easy, being a parent is hard.

just alpha male stuff right?

Big difference between being a caring parent, a stickler on the big issues and not always on the small, and being a general A hole to your kids and those closest to you...

I'm tough enough on my kids on things that have long lasting and eternal ramifications... And my kids respect me enough to get on board with what's important to me. I don't need to hardline things like size of deer to teach them a lesson.

 

[Catscratch]

TD ... thanks for sharing, this is important stuff. Be careful though , you are going to upset the Helicopter Dads here by telling them that you want to be a parent rather than a friend.

Wow, really? Since I think I'm the only one who posted on this thread that I let my kids shoot whatever they want, that this statement must be directed towards me. There is no compromise to our hunting rules, no bending, no fudging... because I'm not going to place antler restrictions on my 10yr old, or tell him that he has to wait for a 4.5 even if that means not shoot a deer for a couple of yrs. He is going to be afforded the same sequence of development that I had in the 80's when I started bow hunting; starting with "I want to shoot a deer", progressing to "I'm holding out for a buck", then "I want a P&Y buck", and finally "I'm content waiting on a mature buck". My 15yr old is currently at the P&Y phase of wanting to shoot a nice buck. He went through the other two stages and is currently asking me how I shoot the size of bucks that I do. He has learned a lot through his previous hunting experiences and I would stack him up against most of my friends who have hunted 30yrs longer than he has, and get this... he has had fun doing it. As for getting upset about how FarmerDan teaches his kids to hunt... I couldn't care less how he does it and I made no statement as such. I see nothing wrong with how he handled his situation at all, and it's none of my business even if I did. Helicopter dad because I don't make my kids follow QDM? lol. My boys do their homework, make straight A's, play 3 sports a yr (and practice outside of practice because it's essential to do more than everybody else if you want to be above average), and have jobs (my oldest spent last weekend building fence in the rain... by himself). They get plenty of life lessons throughout the normal day and have great character. Limiting their hunting so that I can pursue a bigger buck next yr isn't in the cards, I'm not that selfish.

 

[roymunson]

Wow, really? Since I think I'm the only one who posted on this thread that I let my kids shoot whatever they want, that this statement must be directed towards me. There is no compromise to our hunting rules, no bending, no fudging... because I'm not going to place antler restrictions on my 10yr old, or tell him that he has to wait for a 4.5 even if that means not shoot a deer for a couple of yrs. He is going to be afforded the same sequence of development that I had in the 80's when I started bow hunting; starting with "I want to shoot a deer", progressing to "I'm holding out for a buck", then "I want a P&Y buck", and finally "I'm content waiting on a mature buck". My 15yr old is currently at the P&Y phase of wanting to shoot a nice buck. He went through the other two stages and is currently asking me how I shoot the size of bucks that I do. He has learned a lot through his previous hunting experiences and I would stack him up against most of my friends who have hunted 30yrs longer than he has, and get this... he has had fun doing it. As for getting upset about how FarmerDan teaches his kids to hunt... I couldn't care less how he does it and I made no statement as such. I see nothing wrong with how he handled his situation at all, and it's none of my business even if I did. Helicopter dad because I don't make my kids follow QDM? lol. My boys do their homework, make straight A's, play 3 sports a yr (and practice outside of practice because it's essential to do more than everybody else if you want to be above average), and have jobs (my oldest spent last weekend building fence in the rain... by himself). They get plenty of life lessons throughout the normal day and have great character. Limiting their hunting so that I can pursue a bigger buck next yr isn't in the cards, I'm not that selfish.

Don't take it personally, Tree Spud likes to push his own tunnel visioned agenda.

Another thread asked what pricing generally is on cobbed corn and he couldn't answer so he berated anyone who would use bait on deer. Apparently comprehension is only important to other people, not him.

I'm with you Cat. Enjoy the outdoors and pass on the tradition. The kids will learn to hunt at your standards, but we have to realize, hunting maturity is a progression. I'm still maturing. I hunt with guys who will past 150+" 4 year olds. I'm not there yet. Someday I will be.

 

[Bill]

Since I think I'm the only one who posted on this thread that I let my kids shoot whatever they want, that this statement must be directed towards me.

Na, I posted my son and our 1 youth Hunter get to shoot whatever moves them.

It’s funny I’ve seen them both go through what your oldest has. Started out wanting to kill a buck but have progressed to holding out. Mind you these guys only get a few days a year to hunt on my farm and it’s a meca compared to hunting at home. Both have voluntarily gone home empty hand over the years.

My sons 19 now and while he doesn’t hold out like I do he’s gettimg there. At 14 my brother refused to hunt with him again. :). He said it was to nerve racking. The boy let 5 decent bucks walk on his last hunt saying a better one might show. It didn’t and he had tag soup.

Like Jack says it’s a progression. When I started hunting in the early
80’s I shot anything. From that to letting decent deer walk takes time.

But I’ve also stopped inviting many adult hunters over the years. Including relatives because they just couldn’t come close to following the rules.

At the end of the day I figure he who pays the taxes makes the rules.

 

[yoderjac]

We too let kids (novice hunters) shoot any legal deer. When we establish boundaries for kids, the first focus is on safety. A kid demonstrating poor muzzle control with be strongly admonished. The next level we strongly enforce is legal. Things like using someone else's tag, trespassing, harvesting game out of season, will get a kid disciplined. One step down is ethics. Since these are things that take time to form and are really individualized, when a kid does something or voices a position that is ethically questionable, we will have a discussion about why they made the choice and the impacts the choice can have on them and others. This is done more in a spirit to get them to think about their choice, rather than to change their actions. There is nothing more important than setting an example here to have a long-term impact.

When it comes to management decisions, I simply put introducing kids into the sport at a higher level of importance than my QDM goals. This too is an ethical choice that sets an example for them.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[roymunson]

We too let kids (novice hunters) shoot any legal deer. When we establish boundaries for kids, the first focus is on safety. A kid demonstrating poor muzzle control with be strongly admonished. The next level we strongly enforce is legal. Things like using someone else's tag, trespassing, harvesting game out of season, will get a kid disciplined. One step down is ethics. Since these are things that take time to form and are really individualized, when a kid does something or voices a position that is ethically questionable, we will have a discussion about why they made the choice and the impacts the choice can have on them and others. This is done more in a spirit to get them to think about their choice, rather than to change their actions. There is nothing more important than setting an example here to have a long-term impact.

When it comes to management decisions, I simply put introducing kids into the sport at a higher level of importance than my QDM goals. This too is an ethical choice that sets an example for them.

Thanks,

Jack

I dunno man... you sound like a hippy, commie, helicopter parent to me...

***tongue firmly in cheek***

 

[FarmerDan]

I should probably let my finger off the trigger here, but I would like to offer a thought on the debate about parenting, values, QDM, and the debate that seems to have sprung up in the last couple of posts. The question was, "Does QDM make hunting harder." Perhaps I think too much of myself, but it seems like I steered into touchy territory, opening up the discussion to kids, values, parenting style, rules, regulations, happiness (Socrates would be proud).

I thoroughly enjoy the debate and the sharing of views, but I don't read much into if it was directed to me....or not. At least for me posts, are generated by ALL the comments and well thought out opinions. I don't always agree with the views, but I don't feel a need to personally defend myself every time I feel like I've been slighted because it's usually more about me than whomever wrote the post.

This is one of the few places where I find an amazing group of well educated (no matter your formal level of education), that can string six words together to make a sentence seven sentences that makes sense in a paragraph. Honestly, it's a skill much too rare. We live in an era where there are multiple opportunities to express your views, but sometimes we just need to take our fingers off the trigger because the shot is a guaranteed and dangerous miss.

So, if I may, let's take it in a different direction.

Best wishes!

 

[yoderjac]

The discussion has been good and I didn't see it directed at any individual poster for the most part. My original intent was to look at one of the unintended consequences of QDM, making hunting more difficult. Over time, the thread has morphed a bit and we seem to be discussing a broader range of unintended consequences of QDM. One of these is impact harvest policies and how they are enforced affect others. We all have different situations and we tailor our management programs accordingly. QDM is only one component for us.

I said this in a previous post, but my hope was for those of us who have been at it for a while, help new folks just getting started to have a better idea what to expect 10+ years down the road. Knowing the unintended consequences that I and others have experienced can help with that. I don't want to bash QDM and I'm still using it as one prong of our program.

There will be points in a QDM program where deer hunting in general will be easier. There may also be points in the program where it will become much more difficult. We may be restoring social structure and making more mature bucks available while at the same time making it harder for our kids to harvest their first deer. This won't happen in all programs under all conditions, but it is a possibility. Folk have talked about taking the Fun out of Hunting. I mentioned focusing much more on assessing deer and question whether it takes my focus from making a good shot. I also mentioned scale and how that is required for successful QDM.

So, my advice to new folks is to look hard at your individual situation before starting a QDM program. Think about your potential for success as well as possible unintended consequences. Many of the food plot and habitat management technique used in QDM can also be modified to improve your hunting if that ends up being your goal. Starting with reasonable expectations will form a good foundation for a long journey.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Bill]

I should probably let my finger off the trigger here, but I would like to offer a thought on the debate about parenting, values, QDM, and the debate that seems to have sprung up in the last couple of posts. The question was, "Does QDM make hunting harder." Perhaps I think too much of myself, but it seems like I steered into touchy territory, opening up the discussion to kids, values, parenting style, rules, regulations, happiness (Socrates would be proud).

I thoroughly enjoy the debate and the sharing of views, but I don't read much into if it was directed to me....or not. At least for me posts, are generated by ALL the comments and well thought out opinions. I don't always agree with the views, but I don't feel a need to personally defend myself every time I feel like I've been slighted because it's usually more about me than whomever wrote the post.

This is one of the few places where I find an amazing group of well educated (no matter your formal level of education), that can string six words together to make a sentence seven sentences that makes sense in a paragraph. Honestly, it's a skill much too rare. We live in an era where there are multiple opportunities to express your views, but sometimes we just need to take our fingers off the trigger because the shot is a guaranteed and dangerous miss.

So, if I may, let's take it in a different direction.

Best wishes!

I don’t think you took this thread anywhere it wasn’t going. :)

But (see my first post) I was hoping it would go somewhere else. Maybe I should start another thread.

Not what you hunt. But “when” you hunt and “how” you hunt. And why you hunted there, then?

I know over the last 15 years I’ve made some changes. One of which is not morning hunts. Lots of changes but if the rut isn’t on, I’m not getting out of bed.

But I may be wrong. Lots of deer go down in the morning.

I’ve gone from hunting every chance I could to only hunting from Halloween on. To really liking September.

I have no clue about many areas of the country. And I’m not really talking about killing huge deer. Just curious when, where, why and how it gets done.

 

[H20fwler]

We practice our own version of QDM on our place, I don't like seeing any does or yearlings shot and we have about a 50/50 buck/doe ratio by looking at trail cam pics and from what we see.
That said with the limited acreage we have our property turns more into a sanctuary than an actual QDM...with road hunters and one of the neighbors farms getting pounded during gun season with a bunch of brown it's down clowns I'm happy to provide a safe zone for the deer. The quality of our bucks has definitely improved but it is also harder to hunt mature bucks. We see more deer per sit than we used too that's for sure, and more bucks. I have every expectation that our hunting opportunities for bigger bucks will only be improving as the things we have planted mature.

 

[roymunson]

I don’t think you took this thread anywhere it wasn’t going. :)

But (see my first post) I was hoping it would go somewhere else. Maybe I should start another thread.

Not what you hunt. But “when” you hunt and “how” you hunt. And why you hunted there, then?

I know over the last 15 years I’ve made some changes. One of which is not morning hunts. Lots of changes but if the rut isn’t on, I’m not getting out of bed.

But I may be wrong. Lots of deer go down in the morning.

I’ve gone from hunting every chance I could to only hunting from Halloween on. To really liking September.

I have no clue about many areas of the country. And I’m not really talking about killing huge deer. Just curious when, where, why and how it gets done.

That's the joy of owning your own place. You may or may not be doing it wrong, but it doesn't really matter. It's your place.

If I'm getting the most out of my place, I'm happy. But I believe there are multiple roads that can lead you to "getting the most" out of a place. It's some combination of deer quantities, big bucks, hours in the field, passing it on to another generation, etc... Its not 1 thing that makes it great...

 

[SwampCat]

Fifteen years ago, I bought my first 12 acres, built a cabin and a one acre food plot - and we killed a 148” deer - which is a giant for my area. Next year we killed a 132” ten pt. I bought another 38 acres a couple years later, and then some more a few years after that and so on - bought 40 acres this year. I now have about 410 acres - All contiguous except one 60 acre tract. Each year now, I have maybe a dozen food plots totaling over 30 acres - and we havent killed a deer over 125” in three years - where we used to average one a year - even when only owning 12 acres. We dont kill does and we only kill one or two bucks each year.

It is hard to overcome what happens off your property when only controlling 300/400 acres. Ten years ago, the local area had twice as many deer as we now have. Not overpopulated by any means. State relaxed the doe restrictions and the herd has been cut in half - with a corresponding half as many buck for the same population of hunters. The average age of my summer bachelor herd has dropped from 3.1 yrs old to about 2.3 years old. We killed two bucks last year - one was 4.5 and one 5.5 - both about 120” deer - and both had been wounded during the season at some time. Our one big deer (135”) went missing first day of modern gun season.

We do hold a lot of deer on my place, we see a lot of deer, and have a lot of younger bucks. But to be honest - if strictly hunting for a 125” deer - I could hunt the more restrictive public ground and have better luck than on my own ground. With all the time, expense, and effort that goes into my management activities and land purchase - it is not any better hunting for bigger bucks than it was with 12 acres and one food plot. I think with all the available food, it is less likely to be sitting on the right food plot that one time the big one shows up than when you have one plot that he visits more often.

But, it IS all about convenience - even though we dont kill more, we have easier hunting. Me, my wife, my son and his buddy dont have to fight for a spot on public. If all i did was deer hunt, i would be much better off just to join a good lease on some big ground, with better deer hunting (and probably more rules) and make several out of state hunts each year from the interest saved not buying the land. But, we duck hunt, too - and we have four duck holes on our ground. I squirrel and coon hunt with my dog. I hog hunt. We plant dove fields. And my land is my home - I live on it. And my house is a mile from the boat ramp on a 30,000 acre lake full of fish, frogs, and bow fishing opportunity.

I am not one to plant trees, and nwsg, and food plots just to see them grow. I have an acquanitance who hunts so he can justify his desire for planting and managing. I am the other way around - I plant and manage so my hunting is better. If deer in numbers would use my land with no planting - I wouldnt plant a seed or a tree - other than in my garden. If it were just about big deer, for me, I would own about ten acres and hunt public and join a good lease.

My land and work has resulted in more deer - but not more big deer. I know 400 acres is not enough land to grow big deer - but 30 acres of easy food might be enough to attract more deer - and maybe a big buck. We all do what we do for different reasons - that is what makes life so interesting. I think you just have to be realistic with your goals and expectations - as others have said - and make the best of YOUR situation.

 

[Catscratch]

Fifteen years ago, I bought my first 12 acres, built a cabin and a one acre food plot - and we killed a 148” deer - which is a giant for my area. Next year we killed a 132” ten pt. I bought another 38 acres a couple years later, and then some more a few years after that and so on - bought 40 acres this year. I now have about 410 acres - All contiguous except one 60 acre tract. Each year now, I have maybe a dozen food plots totaling over 30 acres - and we havent killed a deer over 125” in three years - where we used to average one a year - even when only owning 12 acres. We dont kill does and we only kill one or two bucks each year.

It is hard to overcome what happens off your property when only controlling 300/400 acres. Ten years ago, the local area had twice as many deer as we now have. Not overpopulated by any means. State relaxed the doe restrictions and the herd has been cut in half - with a corresponding half as many buck for the same population of hunters. The average age of my summer bachelor herd has dropped from 3.1 yrs old to about 2.3 years old. We killed two bucks last year - one was 4.5 and one 5.5 - both about 120” deer - and both had been wounded during the season at some time. Our one big deer (135”) went missing first day of modern gun season.

We do hold a lot of deer on my place, we see a lot of deer, and have a lot of younger bucks. But to be honest - if strictly hunting for a 125” deer - I could hunt the more restrictive public ground and have better luck than on my own ground. With all the time, expense, and effort that goes into my management activities and land purchase - it is not any better hunting for bigger bucks than it was with 12 acres and one food plot. I think with all the available food, it is less likely to be sitting on the right food plot that one time the big one shows up than when you have one plot that he visits more often.

But, it IS all about convenience - even though we dont kill more, we have easier hunting. Me, my wife, my son and his buddy dont have to fight for a spot on public. If all i did was deer hunt, i would be much better off just to join a good lease on some big ground, with better deer hunting (and probably more rules) and make several out of state hunts each year from the interest saved not buying the land. But, we duck hunt, too - and we have four duck holes on our ground. I squirrel and coon hunt with my dog. I hog hunt. We plant dove fields. And my land is my home - I live on it. And my house is a mile from the boat ramp on a 30,000 acre lake full of fish, frogs, and bow fishing opportunity.

I am not one to plant trees, and nwsg, and food plots just to see them grow. I have an acquanitance who hunts so he can justify his desire for planting and managing. I am the other way around - I plant and manage so my hunting is better. If deer in numbers would use my land with no planting - I wouldnt plant a seed or a tree - other than in my garden. If it were just about big deer, for me, I would own about ten acres and hunt public and join a good lease.

My land and work has resulted in more deer - but not more big deer. I know 400 acres is not enough land to grow big deer - but 30 acres of easy food might be enough to attract more deer - and maybe a big buck. We all do what we do for different reasons - that is what makes life so interesting. I think you just have to be realistic with your goals and expectations - as others have said - and make the best of YOUR situation.

Just curious cat; have you noticed any gains from the start of your food plot program until now. You seem to have good data on your herd and I'm assuming you can't believe stats on your bucks in relation to food plots (as neighbors seem to be affecting them more than environment), but do have any wts or significant data on your doe herd? I'm curious if you have seen a benefit to your plots besides hunting?