Can QDM make hunting harder?

[Native Hunter]

I'm going to be different than most of you guys, because I started at zero. My place was a cattle farm. I had fescue fields and open timber. The only deer that used it were the ones that occasionally drifted through.

So, QDM has been nothing but positive for me. I've really worked hard to set the place up to hold deer and hunt without intrusion too.

But I can see many of the points being made by others here on how improving things could make hunting harder.

 

[bueller]

Not to be rude, but it will sound that way... but you guys that have created a ton of cover and food and are complaining that deer aren't huntable anymore sound like you haven't tried to adapt yourself to the situation. I'm betting that all of you that are having trouble now that you've changed your land haven't changed your hunting methods and are still sitting in trees wishing a deer would walk by. Obviously the deer don't have to travel corridors between bedding and food anymore, so why are you still sitting there? Maybe since the deer adapted you could to.?. Maybe start still hunting or stalking? How about a two man drive? Hunt different times, midday or late morning? It seems to me that most of us have recognized the change, but are so set in our ways that we won't do what's necessary to be successful.

Excellent post. Another thing to consider is that even without any changes by us the herd naturally changes over time, even year to year in some cases. I've seen the patterns of past years doe groups fade away to near extinction without any major changes on our properties. Same goes for the bucks. Yes some spots will have predictable activity year after year but other spots will drop off for whatever reason. The deer using them a couple years back are likely dead by now. I've found my best success is the willingness to adapt to changes as I see them. And many times this happens mid-season based on what I'm seeing or not seeing. If they aren't coming to you, you've got to get down and go to them.

 

[Buckly]

These aren't my words. "If you're going to create better deer habitat then why not do it in a way that makes hunting easier?" There are two aspects to this, one is creating better habitat through food and cover and the other is to manipulate the deer movements through these improved areas so they go by your stands. When I first started plotting and hinge cutting it was just as you say. There were more and bigger deer but alas, the hunting wasn't what I had hoped. Once I correlated the habitat improvements with a solid low impact hunting strategy then it was like night and day. Thanks Steve B. I went from just seeing 1 1/2 year old bucks on stand and 2 year olds on camera to harvesting 3-4 year old deer every year just by having a hunting strategy in tune with all the improvements. I have done this on 120 acres with hunting pressure on all sides. So, I guess in my case QDM went from an idea that wasn't working to a end that made hunting this property not only easier but very gratifying.

 

[homerj]

Seems QDM and habitat management/habitat improvement are considered one and the same by many of the posters? Pretty sure habitat management/habitat improvement were things long before the concept of QDM came along.

 

[roymunson]

Seems QDM and habitat management/habitat improvement are considered one and the same by many of the posters? Pretty sure habitat management/habitat improvement were things long before the concept of QDM came along.

Once again, I think those things are all part of QDM. But I think people see the words quality deer managment, and immediately think of the glossy magazine and organization. Not necessarily the same thing.

 

[FarmerDan]

Let us count the ways to make hunting the ever elusive whitetail hard(er). Or, maybe it doesn't measure on a linear scale. What's harder than hunting a deer in an area where the population is 2 or 3 per square mile? What's harder than standing 20 ft up a tree on a small platform trying to remain still, scent free, cool, calm and collected while trying to bend a stick with a string and bend it far enough to propel another straight stick fast enough and hard enough to drop said whitetail. Keep it going! Long distance shooting. Use open sights. Go out when the weather is zero degrees. Can QDM be harder? Maybe. I guess it's all what you make it.

Every habitat is different. Food, water, cover. Edges, wind direction, elevation, over hunting, outside influences. QDM. No QDM. The challenge is to figure it out. Once you do that...if you can do that....maybe then your success rate goes up.

My long deceased father shot more big bucks than I ever will and he never heard of QDM. He shot his share of little buck, too. But, where ever he was, he figured it out...or just got lucky. Level of luck = amount of time in the field.

I don't mean to diminish QDM, but I often think I am delusional to believe I can control so many of the variables (or even just one or two) I think I need to control to get into the QDM game. Now, that's not to say I abhor the process. In fact, it's one of my great joys. My fear and, perhaps your's too, is that all this investment in time and money really doesn't produce the results we'd hope for. Again, it depends on the results you were expecting.

Miller time!

 

[SwampCat]

Let us count the ways to make hunting the ever elusive whitetail hard(er). Or, maybe it doesn't measure on a linear scale. What's harder than hunting a deer in an area where the population is 2 or 3 per square mile? What's harder than standing 20 ft up a tree on a small platform trying to remain still, scent free, cool, calm and collected while trying to bend a stick with a string and bend it far enough to propel another straight stick fast enough and hard enough to drop said whitetail. Keep it going! Long distance shooting. Use open sights. Go out when the weather is zero degrees. Can QDM be harder? Maybe. I guess it's all what you make it.

Every habitat is different. Food, water, cover. Edges, wind direction, elevation, over hunting, outside influences. QDM. No QDM. The challenge is to figure it out. Once you do that...if you can do that....maybe then your success rate goes up.

My long deceased father shot more big bucks than I ever will and he never heard of QDM. He shot his share of little buck, too. But, where ever he was, he figured it out...or just got lucky. Level of luck = amount of time in the field.

I don't mean to diminish QDM, but I often think I am delusional to believe I can control so many of the variables (or even just one or two) I think I need to control to get into the QDM game. Now, that's not to say I abhor the process. In fact, it's one of my great joys. My fear and, perhaps your's too, is that all this investment in time and money really doesn't produce the results we'd hope for. Again, it depends on the results you were expecting.

Miller time!

I agree - you have to determine what will work best on your ground and what are realistic expectations for your deer. I have 340 acres with a lot of surrounding pressure. I would estimate 75% of our 4.5 year old bucks get killed. Our average 4.5 yr old buck probably scores around 120. 5.5 year old bucks, on average, pick up mass but may lose points and score about the same. 6.5 yr old bucks generally in decline. No row crops in county. A fair bit of pasture.

All that tells you there is not much reason to pass 4.5 yr old bucks with a reasonable expectation that he will either be alive, or bigger, next year. Because of my small property size, it is not realistic to believe I can grow big bucks. What I can do is lay out a buffet of high quality, easily obtainable food and try to attract as many bucks from as far away as possible - in hopes that a big one or two shows up. We kill 4.5 yr old bucks, no matter what type of antler they carry.

 

[FarmerDan]

I think it sucks the fun out of hunting.

Holding out for that first trophy buck that will never materialize, endless protection for does in an effort to grow the herd to a number that winter, neighbors, and game agencies will never allow anyway, getting bent out of shape about taking a buck before it's a "trophy" by your standards.

How many hardcore QDM'ers also have people in their camp that can enjoy the hunt without having to worry about which deer they can shoot? QDM practiced strictly enough can drive away your entire deer camp.

I know it drove my son away. All he wanted to do is kill a deer. He wanted to make sausage and jerky and impress all of his friends with his butchering and cooking skill! And, i admit, there are seasons where I, too, get frustrated and want to hang it up. But, my "high" standards keep me in the game! So, if you are here, reading all this high quality management stuff, don't be put off by it. Keep hunting and do what YOU want to do. There's lot's about the sport to enjoy, a whole lot more than big antlers. When you're gone, there might be some big heads on the wall to admire, but, hopefully, there many fond and positive memories, too.

 

[yoderjac]

Some great perspectives in this thread. As for QDM verses habitat management, I would say this. Habitat management requires a subject. Great habitat for ducks may be very different than great habitat for quail. QDM adds a particular subject to habitat management. Most of us don't exclusively manage for deer and much of the habitat management that is good for deer is good for many other wildlife species. Habitat management is only one aspect of QDM. Once could consider doe harvest a part of habitat management as keeping deer numbers in check have an impact on habitat, but it would be a stretch to say letting young bucks walk is habitat management.


I just wanted to share how having a harvest policy and impact a hunt. I had it happen tonight. I was hunting in the hardwoods tonight. I caught a glimpse of a deer moving at about 80 yards. Normally, I would just have sat and watch the deer. If it looked like it was coming into range I would make a shoot/don't shoot decision based on whatever criteria I wanted. I wouldn't worry about making a mistake and my responsibility to others. Instead, I pulled up my binoculars to evaluate it well before it gets into range. Normally this wouldn't be an issue, but for some reason, even through cover at 80 yards, the buck picked up the movement. It looked directly at me and we had a stare down. It made me and turned and ran. It never blew as it would if it was a scent issue and the wind was in my favor. It was moving calmly until I lifted the binoculars. It clearly picked up the movement and I wasn't silhouetted. It was just an unusual coincidence that he picked me up.

My point is that when hunting properties without restrictions, I would not have glassed this buck during archery season. I limit my shots to around 20 yards, and at that range I should be able to make a good call in most cases. But, to avoid making a "mistake", I altered my technique.

FarmerDan makes a great point. My most memorable hunts have nothing to do with large antlered bucks.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[SD51555]

You get out of life what you put into it, and if you're happy killing a certain deer on your property, that's fine, but don't get on a soapbox for someone who wants something different or more from their experience.

I was right where everyone else was up until about this spring. After many campfires with some guys that had alternate perspectives, it made me realize my intense focus on all things improvement was driving all the enjoyment out of hunting. I have been hunting my area for ten years, and still have not pulled a trigger of slung an arrow because not one deer was ever fit to improve age structure, sex ratios, or stabilize the herd as I saw fit. I've seen the herd in my area build to something special twice now, and get crushed once. We're due for one of three external forces to ride hard into town and wipe out the herd again with a blistering winter, or a return of the wolves, or excess tag allocations. My area already has 1.5 hunters for every deer that roams it, and the DNR just gave everyone a shoot-anything tag.

I still struggle with lingering effects of intense QDM. My buddy shot a big old doe off my place last weekend, he took a risky shot, and wanted to pursue his deer way sooner than I'd like (under 30 minutes). I wanted to read him the riot act for that and really had to bite my tongue to not $h*t all over his first bow kill. I was able to do so, and be supportive, congratulate him, and sell it. It turned out to be a really great experience for him, and I was happy to set that up.

If my post struck a nerve with you, you might be the very guy that needs to reassess if you're still having fun.

 

[yoderjac]

I was right where everyone else was up until about this spring. After many campfires with some guys that had alternate perspectives, it made me realize my intense focus on all things improvement was driving all the enjoyment out of hunting. I have been hunting my area for ten years, and still have not pulled a trigger of slung an arrow because not one deer was ever fit to improve age structure, sex ratios, or stabilize the herd as I saw fit. I've seen the herd in my area build to something special twice now, and get crushed once. We're due for one of three external forces to ride hard into town and wipe out the herd again with a blistering winter, or a return of the wolves, or excess tag allocations. My area already has 1.5 hunters for every deer that roams it, and the DNR just gave everyone a shoot-anything tag.

I still struggle with lingering effects of intense QDM. My buddy shot a big old doe off my place last weekend, he took a risky shot, and wanted to pursue his deer way sooner than I'd like (under 30 minutes). I wanted to read him the riot act for that and really had to bite my tongue to not $h*t all over his first bow kill. I was able to do so, and be supportive, congratulate him, and sell it. It turned out to be a really great experience for him, and I was happy to set that up.

If my post struck a nerve with you, you might be the very guy that needs to reassess if you're still having fun.

You've got to admire the maturity of someone who believes in an approach and commits to it but over time looks back at all the consequences and is willing to re-think things. Changing your mind is a very hard thing to do. Once we commit to a position and especially when we advocate for it publically, it is very hard for the human mind to change course.

While I'm not ready to abandon QDM, I'm becoming much more sensitive to the impacts on others and much more flexible in my approach.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[SwampCat]

I practice QDM on my home property - We kill our deer and stock the freezer on another piece of my property, on our deer lease, or public - best of both worlds

 

[Natty Bumppo]

Enjoying this great thread with varied viewpoints. I really am only a passive observer as I can not truly practice QDM on my small 30. Of course I do everything all you guys are doing...TSI, food plots, planting trees, etc....and I enjoy the crap out of it. But since getting turned on to the concept of QDM about 6 years ago and finding the old forum and reading every book I could get my hands on I quickly realized that for my situation in NW Mass. I needed to focus on QHM...Quality Hunt Management. Fifteen years ago I would be lucky to see maybe 6 or 7 deer during an entire season. Now, I routinely see 35 or 40 deer. I see more bucks. I get more pics of bucks. And I enjoy the hunt more, and for me that's where I find success and feel like my investments (time and money and sweat) have paid off. I will never grow and hold and routinely kill 4.5 and 5.5 yo bucks like the ones some of you guys probably see on a nightly basis. But each time I suit up to head out for a sit I know that there is a good chance I will have a quality hunt and have better opportunities than I did before I started all this madness.

 

[roymunson]

If my post struck a nerve with you, you might be the very guy that needs to reassess if you're still having fun.

You didn't strike a nerve. I just don't like to see a broad sweeping statement brushing over an entire mindset because it's frustrating in your situation. Our deer populations are very different. Our age structure is probably different. We killed 15 deer off of 200 acres last year and still have a big surplus. I am having a blast doing what I'm doing. It's my ground and if I screw it up, I'll take the blame for it. Then I'll reassess things and change it next year.

I generally kill a buck every 2-3 years. I have a friend who kills as big or bigger bucks than I that tags out just about every year on the same ground. He spends more time in the woods, but we're both having a blast. We get kids involved and don't hold them to standards. We let them have fun.

I think you have an understandable situation. But I also know there are a lot of people out there who bag on the idea of herd improvement as an excuse as to why they couldn't hold their water for the 5thyear in a row when they shot the first buck that walked past them.

I know what my area can produce, and I want to strive for more. I don't see the fault in that. I've reached a point in my life where I don't HAVE to kill a deer to feel like I was a success. I'd rather kill THE deer.

 

[roymunson]

I know it drove my son away.

I think I speak for most people here when I say, no amount of deer habitat work is worth driving your kids away from spending quality time with you. Given the choice between having my kids involved in the outdoors or growing bigger bucks, I'd let them kill all the dinks they want. People and relationships > pursuit of animals

 

[Catscratch]

Every deer my kids or friends shoot is "the best deer ever" and I make sure to make no comparisons. We dont measure them and there is no winner or looser in deer season. Of course my boys argue endlessly about who shot the bigger deer but its normal brotherly love. I say take the comparisons out of it and deer management is a lot more fun. It's hard to be happy when you are competing against the Jones's and your view down the street is the entire internet. If I looked at Baker's place for affirmations on my practices life would suck! But I don't, I'm happy for him and I'm happy for me, and I'm happy for sd.

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[Freeborn]

There are allot variables that determine success and enjoyment of a property. Allot of it comes down to expectations vs. what results your neighborhood can regularly provide. If you have outside influences (wolves, extreme winter, terrible neighbors, poor regulation, EHD etc.) but your expectations are to annually shoot a buck in the top 5% in historical quality; you most likely have unrealistic expectations.

My neighborhood on average produces harvestable bucks in the 120 range with an occasional 140 and rare 160. In my opinion it would be unrealistic for me or my guests to only shoot bucks that were 140+. Now, if I have a 140+ buck on my property its hunter’s choice if they want to hold out for that buck. At the same time I expect hunters to pass on young bucks.

In my opinion, neighborhood is the number one variable you can control to improve your hunting experience.

QM has improved the number of deer on my property and improved my hunting. My place is small and I have kept my management simple while I figure out approaches for bow and rifle. I have one primary food plot and I have been focused on improved bedding and improved hunting tactics. I do not believe in ATV or most trails or planting food on trails. My trails are narrow and sparse at best.

I often think new land owners in their excitement and effort to produce giant bucks change things to much without really understanding what they are doing to their properties. Keep it simple both in expectations and management until you understand your property and you will enjoy your property more.

 

[Tree Spud]

I know it drove my son away. All he wanted to do is kill a deer. He wanted to make sausage and jerky and impress all of his friends with his butchering and cooking skill! And, i admit, there are seasons where I, too, get frustrated and want to hang it up. But, my "high" standards keep me in the game! So, if you are here, reading all this high quality management stuff, don't be put off by it. Keep hunting and do what YOU want to do. There's lot's about the sport to enjoy, a whole lot more than big antlers. When you're gone, there might be some big heads on the wall to admire, but, hopefully, there many fond and positive memories, too.

Doubt you drove you son a away as he made a choice not to participate in what was important to you. When people start pushing your boundaries and wanting you lighten up or compromise, they are doing that for their own satisfaction. How someone acts when invited to your place is the level of respect they offer to you.

 

[g squared 23]

I know it drove my son away. All he wanted to do is kill a deer. He wanted to make sausage and jerky and impress all of his friends with his butchering and cooking skill! And, i admit, there are seasons where I, too, get frustrated and want to hang it up. But, my "high" standards keep me in the game! So, if you are here, reading all this high quality management stuff, don't be put off by it. Keep hunting and do what YOU want to do. There's lot's about the sport to enjoy, a whole lot more than big antlers. When you're gone, there might be some big heads on the wall to admire, but, hopefully, there many fond and positive memories, too.

Doubt you drove you son a away as he made a choice not to participate in what was important to you. When people start pushing your boundaries and wanting you lighten up or compromise, they are doing that for their own satisfaction. How someone acts when invited to your place is the level of respect they offer to you.

Really can't disagree more. Deer camp shouldn't be rigorously regulated and strict. Rules are not fun to kids. Has zero to do with respect. Kids look for activities that are enjoyable, and so do parents, and those activities often involve spending time with said children. The only rules should be 1. Stay safe and 2. Don't do anything illegal. I won't put "have fun" as a rule, because mandatory fun isn't actually enjoyable. If you're wanting everyone who uses your property to bow and kiss the ring, you'll find that the line will be very short and you'll end up hunting huge bucks by yourself.


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[FarmerDan]

Doubt you drove you son a away as he made a choice not to participate in what was important to you. When people start pushing your boundaries and wanting you lighten up or compromise, they are doing that for their own satisfaction. How someone acts when invited to your place is the level of respect they offer to you.

Thanks 'Spud. There's never enough time, or space - or interest in the story to tell all of it. When my son was a teenager it absolutely twisted him into knots to let a buck walk...but he did. All the while, I'm trying to help him understand it's necessary to have a set of values to guide your actions through life. What we value while in the field is only part of the equation. You're right, compromising begins to diminish one's values to the point of enabling bad behavior. That's neither here nor there so far as habitat management is concerned. But, comprise is sometimes necessary to maintain some sense of social order be it with a family or a society. Our compromise was to find another place to hunt where, right or wrong, if it was brown it was down. So, he had two ways to think about outdoors and sportsmanship. I admit, I sometimes leave out parts of the story to make a point. And, my point was, don't let QDM ruin the social structure or your relationships with people you adore, admire, and love. QDM is just part of it, but I've come to believe our passions for the sport are a reason for the decline of participation among youth. We have to build that passion. It takes a long time to do that. My other peeve is taking kids into the hunt a too young an age. A story and rant for another time.

The difficulty and requirements of the hunt are only part of the reason my son quit....if only temporarily. He's back! In between he went off to college, got a degree, and voluntarily spent a year in Afghanistan. He came back alive (nearly didn't), got married (a city girl), and had a child. Oh, he bought a house, too. He works for the Department of the Army at the Pentagon, a good two hour drive from the farm. Life sometimes intercedes. This year he said he had to get back into it because, if he didn't "she" would never let him get away for a day!

I think he has a new appreciation for some of the QDM values. I'm lucky. Sometimes it doesn't work out that way...