Brassicas and clover planted together

[Wild Thing]

This is what my brassica plots looked like on April 28th this year right after the snow melted (note the radish holes):


Here is the same plot on June 1st:


and another of last years' brassica plots on June 11th... They are a little thinner than I normally see them at this time of the year. Part of that is from the drought no doubt, but the clover component is also lesser because I didn't include the medium red clover last year.


I haven't planted chicory in many years but I went ahead and included some in my fall cover crop mix last year and am I happy that I did. It is really shining bright this year with the continued drought conditions we have experienced. I plan to also include a pound of two per acre in my brassica mix this year - Good Choice Foggy!

 

[Maddog66]

I don’t have a drill, but in my very limited experience trying to establish clover at my place found that 3# of brassicas with 12# of various clovers and 100# of WR last early fall was waaayyyy too much brassica.

They got huge and almost completely shaded out the clover. Thousands of big bulbs left this spring that have now bolted to 5’ tall yellow flowers. There is SOME clover and WR in there, but not nearly what I expected to see. I see some chicory coming in here and there also.

I’m still determined to resist touching it till after fawning……and giving the clover more time.

 

[Wild Thing]

I've been considering how to broadcast winter rye into my strips of brassica (PTT/ DER/ Collards/ GHR and clovers) which I intend to drill into my terminated clover and rye which I will plant in early / mid July.

So I have been considering mounting my Herd spin spreader on my loader. And after seeing the below pic on the "Dipper Thread" I am going to offset my spreader to one side as shown. BUT....I think I will rotate the mount 90 degrees so I can drive alongside the strip plot and broadcast my rye mostly to one side without having to drive over the established brassica.

I think I can sling the Rye out about 30 feet or so away from the tractor.....and could seed from one side or two......depending on the width of the brasica plot. I can also lift it as high (or low) as needed to somewhat control the distance (as well as using the rheostat which controls the spin speed). I have a rope and pulley system to open/close the seed gate.

Kinda liking this idea and will likely fab a mount in the next few days. This way I can load a bushel at a time and carry about four to six more bushels in the bucket as I drive around in a HVAC cab. Gotta like this idea.
View attachment 53439

I have been contemplating the same thing Foggy, but by utilizing my 3 Pt Cyclone Spreader (which I don't use anymore since I quit using fertilizer). I can set it to only spread the seed to the side as well. I could drive around the outside edge of the plots and spread rye seed maybe 30 feet or so into the brassicas and then only have to maybe walk down the center to spread some rye in the middle of the plots. I don't like the idea of driving over my brassicas either.

 

[Foggy47]

I feel a bit goofy writing down a plan like this......but it's really hard to remember from year to year what it was you did.....if you do not keep some records. Also, I'm teaching some family members how to do some of this stuff......cause I am not going to do this stuff forever. I like showing them the plans and hopefully the results.

 

[Foggy47]

I have been contemplating the same thing Foggy, but by utilizing my 3 Pt Cyclone Spreader (which I don't use anymore since I quit using fertilizer). I can set it to only spread the seed to the side as well. I could drive around the outside edge of the plots and spread rye seed maybe 30 feet or so into the brassicas and then only have to maybe walk down the center to spread some rye in the middle of the plots. I don't like the idea of driving over my brassicas either.

View attachment 53515

I have that very same spreader. What is the trick in getting them to sling seed to one side??

 

[Wild Thing]

I have that very same spreader. What is the trick in getting them to sling seed to one side??

Check out the illustrations and instructions on Page 7 of the owners manual.

FERTILIZER SPREADERS MODEL PL180, PL400 & PL500Ford Distributinghttps://forddistributing.com › amfile › attach › f...

 

[Wild Thing]

I feel a bit goofy writing down a plan like this......but it's really hard to remember from year to year what it was you did.....if you do not keep some records. Also, I'm teaching some family members how to do some of this stuff......cause I am not going to do this stuff forever. I like showing them the plans and hopefully the results.

No need to feel goofy about keeping good notes. I do it all the time. It sure beats having to reinvent the wheel every time you want to do something.

 

[Westwind]

I really love to see a written down detailed plan!

I laminated mine.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

WT and Foggy -

Looks like you guys have good plans and plot mixes. Those pics are proof of good plans!

Our camp has no drill. We spread seed by rotary electric, 4-wheeler-mounted spreaders - or over-the-shoulder poly bucket type (Solo). I have a question on your multi-seed plots ---- Do you have any problems with 1 or 2 crop varieties getting overrun by the others?? Or shaded out by big brassica leaves?? I like the idea of mixed plots for deer variety and soil health.

 

[Foggy47]

I don’t have a drill, but in my very limited experience trying to establish clover at my place found that 3# of brassicas with 12# of various clovers and 100# of WR last early fall was waaayyyy too much brassica.

They got huge and almost completely shaded out the clover. Thousands of big bulbs left this spring that have now bolted to 5’ tall yellow flowers. There is SOME clover and WR in there, but not nearly what I expected to see. I see some chicory coming in here and there also.

I’m still determined to resist touching it till after fawning……and giving the clover more time.

I am resisting the inner urge to go with a heavier rate of brassica. Seems that is a lesson I seldom get right. I'm putting down considerable less clover that you......but I feel some of the clover I terminate with gly will rebound next spring in addition to what I plant in July.

Last year, I had trouble setting back my clover long enough to get the brassica established. I'm hoping I can get this piece of the puzzle solved this year.....and after applying gly I am going to wait to plant until I can see the (brown) results. At this point I am considering 1.5 quarts / acre of gly and 1 pint / acre of 24-D....then seven days before plant back.

Like you......I am going to hold off on terminating my clover /rye (via Gly) until after the 4th of July and then plant "green" (actually brown) into the standing dead crops. I expect that will be in the middle of July but may depend on the chances for rain. After planting I will run my crimper over the top of the standing brown crops to further establish ground contact with the new seed and get some mulch cover for the new brassica / clover. My goal is for the new brassica to suppress the clover until next spring.

^ Wild Thing makes this happen.....and I hope I can get the results he does.

I got one more shot to broadcast clover seed (if I think it's needed) when I broadcast rye (100# /a) over the brasica in late August. May sling some more clover then, depending on what I see at that time.

Other than the longer-lasting fall brassica and rye crops......The nice thing about this plan ^ for me......is that in Spring the clover / rye is there when the deer need it most. And I have lots of deer in my plots at all times of day getting stronger and healtier while providing that much needed fawning cover in the rye. Meanwhile I am in OZ (Arizona) working on my golf game. When we return....other than spraying a few weeds.....there is little I need to do until July. Amazing.......No-Till and regenerative practices is a beautiful thing for me.

 

[Wild Thing]

WT and Foggy -

Looks like you guys have good plans and plot mixes. Those pics are proof of good plans!

Our camp has no drill. We spread seed by rotary electric, 4-wheeler-mounted spreaders - or over-the-shoulder poly bucket type (Solo). I have a question on your multi-seed plots ---- Do you have any problems with 1 or 2 crop varieties getting overrun by the others?? Or shaded out by big brassica leaves?? I like the idea of mixed plots for deer variety and soil health.

No problems with overcrowding at all BnB. If you look at the photos on page 1 you will note that all you can see in August when I am broadcasting the rye is brassicas. You would never know any clovers had been planted with the brassica seed. The deer do hammer my brassicas early and often so that may help give the rye a little boost in the fall but, like Foggy, I am relying on the clovers and rye to provide spring and summer forage - not necessarily fall forage. I have other plots for that.

I also plan to include 1#/acre of Chicory in with my brassica mix this year. I do not anticipate that that will see much growth until spring either.

I like to plant brassicas here around July 7, 8, 9 or 10 so I will be terminating my cover crops soon where I expect to plant brassicas. I have several acres of alfalfa/clover mix and rye which I want to make sure is fully terminated prior to drilling the brassicas so I plan to spray that with probably 2 qts/acre Gly and 1 Pint/acre 2-4,D to make sure I get a good kill on the alfalfa and clovers. Because of this concern I will be spraying in about another 10-12 days. That way I should have a good idea of how well the herbicides worked on the alfalfa/clovers. Hopefully I won't need to spray again or I will be planting a little later than normal. Because of the residual in 2-4,D I like to wait a week or so before planting another broadleaf plant - longer if using 2 pints or more 2-4,D.

 

[Foggy47]

WT and Foggy -

Looks like you guys have good plans and plot mixes. Those pics are proof of good plans!

Our camp has no drill. We spread seed by rotary electric, 4-wheeler-mounted spreaders - or over-the-shoulder poly bucket type (Solo). I have a question on your multi-seed plots ---- Do you have any problems with 1 or 2 crop varieties getting overrun by the others?? Or shaded out by big brassica leaves?? I like the idea of mixed plots for deer variety and soil health.

When we seed brassica and other small seeds via our drills.....those seeds are basically scattered on the ground behind the drill openers....which serve to slightly disrupt the ground.....and then pressed into the ground with the press wheels on the drill. You can do the very same thing with good broadcasting techniques and some kind of press wheels (such as a cultipacker) or even the tires on your wheeler.....or via Mowing as in the throw and mow plan so many guys do. Other guys do a light disking......and then broadcast seeds. It all works.

A drill may put the seed more uniformly across the plot area.....but there is nothing wrong with a good broadcast program. A drill is a somewhat better when seeds are larger in size and need to be a 1/4 inch or deeper to germinate. Dont let the drill talk scare you away. A drill is for certain more precise and easier.....but not by a wide margin over your broadcasting methods - if done correctly. Broadcasting may require about 20% more seed to equal the same germination rate of the drill.

My 2 cents.

 

[Wild Thing]

WT and Foggy -

Looks like you guys have good plans and plot mixes. Those pics are proof of good plans!

Our camp has no drill. We spread seed by rotary electric, 4-wheeler-mounted spreaders - or over-the-shoulder poly bucket type (Solo). I have a question on your multi-seed plots ---- Do you have any problems with 1 or 2 crop varieties getting overrun by the others?? Or shaded out by big brassica leaves?? I like the idea of mixed plots for deer variety and soil health.

I still plant using the throw n mow...or mow, spray and seed methods on a smaller scale myself. I started a thread on this very subject last year on the Michigan Sportsman Forum and just updated it yesterday. This is something that anyone can do without owning or renting a no-till drill:

Throw & Mow No-Till Planting

 

[Foggy47]

^ re-reading my post above. I've always had problems with broadcasting on bare dirt if I did not drag the dirt or cultipack etc. Broadcasting into a dead crop is somewhat new territory for me. If you have lots of duff or mulch etch.....the important part is to get the seed to the dirt and to get some type light of covering on it where possible. Especially in sandy land - like mine. Not protecting the seeds in dry sandy soil seems a sure way to get a crop failure in my past experience.

That is why so many preach mowing after broadcast or packing or dragging, etc. The mulch or duff can do allot to retain any moisture in the soil on this hot July / August days. Still....some rainfall saves us all.

I remain uncertain if I will attach the small seed box hoses to direct the seeds behind the openers......or just let those hoses dangle as many suggest they do. I think attaching the hoses may get my seeds closer to the soils as opposed to the dangle means. Advice or experience??

 

[Bowsnbucks]

WT and Foggy -

Thanks for this info. We've been using the broadcast method for probably12 years or more now. The cultipacker seems to give us good seed-to-soil contact, and we get good germination in most of our plots. We're newer at MIXED plots. We used to plant a plot of just brassicas, or just grain rye, or clover mixed with a little chicory. Planting mixed plots is a newer effort for us at camp, and learning which crops grow well together (without 1 or 2 smothering the others) is where we are now. I do most of the habitat research for our camp, and I don't know how much of each crop variety to put into a mixed plot to get the best results. Maybe it varies with soil / region / climate.

We'll be planting a brassica plot around the end of July here, consisting of DER, PTT, GHR, and Pasja Forage brassica. We buy the "Big Buck Brassica Mix" from Welter's. If we plant that seed mix on a 1 acre plot, I don't know how much rye, clover (best clovers & how much of each) to add to the Welter's brassica mix. I just don't want to waste seed / time / money if the seed ratio's are wrong.

It seems after reading on this forum and some university sites that mixed plots fill several gaps concerning soil health, too - so efficiency is a thought as well. Adding N, adding OM, deep roots breaking up soil - can be had by mixed plots, from what I read.

EDIT: Our camp has clayish loam soil - not sandy at all.

Thoughts??

 

[omicron1792]

^ re-reading my post above. I've always had problems with broadcasting on bare dirt if I did not drag the dirt or cultipack etc. Broadcasting into a dead crop is somewhat new territory for me. If you have lots of duff or mulch etch.....the important part is to get the seed to the dirt and to get some type light of covering on it where possible. Especially in sandy land - like mine. Not protecting the seeds in dry sandy soil seems a sure way to get a crop failure in my past experience.

That is why so many preach mowing after broadcast or packing or dragging, etc. The mulch or duff can do allot to retain any moisture in the soil on this hot July / August days. Still....some rainfall saves us all.

I remain uncertain if I will attach the small seed box hoses to direct the seeds behind the openers......or just let those hoses dangle as many suggest they do. I think attaching the hoses may get my seeds closer to the soils as opposed to the dangle means. Advice or experience??

Use the drill as it’s supposed to my man. This isn’t some new off drill. People use the small seed box in their livelihoods. Getting some seed pressed into top of loosened trench dirt improves germination tremendously.

 

[omicron1792]

 

[Wild Thing]

I remain uncertain if I will attach the small seed box hoses to direct the seeds behind the openers......or just let those hoses dangle as many suggest they do. I think attaching the hoses may get my seeds closer to the soils as opposed to the dangle means. Advice or experience??

I agree with @omicron1792 Foggy. Use the drill as it was intended to be used. We don't need to reinvent the wheel. They work just fine as designed. Don't overthink it. My .02 cents worth.

 

[Wild Thing]

WT and Foggy -

Thanks for this info. We've been using the broadcast method for probably12 years or more now. The cultipacker seems to give us good seed-to-soil contact, and we get good germination in most of our plots. We're newer at MIXED plots. We used to plant a plot of just brassicas, or just grain rye, or clover mixed with a little chicory. Planting mixed plots is a newer effort for us at camp, and learning which crops grow well together (without 1 or 2 smothering the others) is where we are now. I do most of the habitat research for our camp, and I don't know how much of each crop variety to put into a mixed plot to get the best results. Maybe it varies with soil / region / climate.

We'll be planting a brassica plot around the end of July here, consisting of DER, PTT, GHR, and Pasja Forage brassica. We buy the "Big Buck Brassica Mix" from Welter's. If we plant that seed mix on a 1 acre plot, I don't know how much rye, clover (best clovers & how much of each) to add to the Welter's brassica mix. I just don't want to waste seed / time / money if the seed ratio's are wrong.

It seems after reading on this forum and some university sites that mixed plots fill several gaps concerning soil health, too - so efficiency is a thought as well. Adding N, adding OM, deep roots breaking up soil - can be had by mixed plots, from what I read.

EDIT: Our camp has clayish loam soil - not sandy at all.

Thoughts??

OK Great! The Welter brassica mix sounds like a great combo for your brassicas and I am sure they will do well. Now...not knowing anything about your deer density or environment I can only tell you how planting just that mix would work out here on my dirt. My deer will have devoured every last morsel of that mix by probably December at the latest - sometimes even sooner, and all I would have left until next planting season would be bare dirt.

If you look at my "Recipe" on the post at the top of this page you can see that I plant a very similar brassica mix as what you will be planting. The difference is that I don't want to be left with bare dirt in the spring. I want to keep my soil covered, I want a diversity of living roots in my soil for as many days per year as possible, I want to continue feeding my deer - especially following snow melt when forage is pretty lean in the north woods, and I want to have at least somewhat of a cover crop to plant into the following summer. I accomplish all of this by planting what you see in my mix above, and by following that July planting by broadcasting cereal rye into the brassica mix 4-5 weeks later after the brassicas have become well-established.

Plant a few pounds/acre of whatever clovers you prefer at the same time you plant your brassica mix - you can mix it right in with the brassica seed and plant it at the same time - no sense in walking any further than you have to to plant. The brassicas won't even know the clovers are there as they will shoot up after the first rainfall and soon canopy over the tiny clovers, keeping them suppressed until spring. Same thing with the rye. If you broadcast rye into already established brassicas, the rye will have zero negative effects on your brassicas but it will be a tremendous boost for your deer in the spring and it will help build Organic Matter (most of which is built by roots under the surface), provide a carbon boost for your soil, suppress weed growth in your plot, keep your soil covered, provide fawning cover until you plant again....and probably lots of other benefits as well.

Believe me, you are not going to experience any "crowding" out of your brassicas by planting this way. There are many, many benefits to this method and few, if any negatives IMO.

 

[Brian662]

I am resisting the inner urge to go with a heavier rate of brassica. Seems that is a lesson I seldom get right. I'm putting down considerable less clover that you......but I feel some of the clover I terminate with gly will rebound next spring in addition to what I plant in July.

Last year, I had trouble setting back my clover long enough to get the brassica established. I'm hoping I can get this piece of the puzzle solved this year.....and after applying gly I am going to wait to plant until I can see the (brown) results. At this point I am considering 1.5 quarts / acre of gly and 1 pint / acre of 24-D....then seven days before plant back.

Like you......I am going to hold off on terminating my clover /rye (via Gly) until after the 4th of July and then plant "green" (actually brown) into the standing dead crops. I expect that will be in the middle of July but may depend on the chances for rain. After planting I will run my crimper over the top of the standing brown crops to further establish ground contact with the new seed and get some mulch cover for the new brassica / clover. My goal is for the new brassica to suppress the clover until next spring.

^ Wild Thing makes this happen.....and I hope I can get the results he does.

I got one more shot to broadcast clover seed (if I think it's needed) when I broadcast rye (100# /a) over the brasica in late August. May sling some more clover then, depending on what I see at that time.

Other than the longer-lasting fall brassica and rye crops......The nice thing about this plan ^ for me......is that in Spring the clover / rye is there when the deer need it most. And I have lots of deer in my plots at all times of day getting stronger and healtier while providing that much needed fawning cover in the rye. Meanwhile I am in OZ (Arizona) working on my golf game. When we return....other than spraying a few weeds.....there is little I need to do until July. Amazing.......No-Till and regenerative practices is a beautiful thing for me.

Will clover come back after sprayed with a gly/2,4-D combo? I thought it killed the clover dead?
I have heard of guys trying to "set back" clover with gly but I think using 2 4-D is the kiss of death for clovers?