I have a Premier Mountain that doesn't like Nosler Accubond LR190s. Regular Accubond 180's shoot great. Try a few different ammos. Hornady ELD-X shoots well in several of the 6.5 creedmores.
Best rifle for. 9 yo youth
- Thread starter 4wanderingeyes
- Start date
Wind Gypsy
5 year old buck +
I’m sure countless young hunters have gotten a start and killed deer with exactly that. I’d just skip the throwaway scope/rings from the start though.
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Telemark
5 year old buck +
Probably suitable for a 22 or pellet gun later on. Otherwise yeah I agree.
A lot (or all) of it is in the bullet shape and throat. Some bullets don't like a jump in to the rifling, others do, and some just don't do well regardless.
I haven't tried all there is, but so far Barnes 130's have been fantastic in 6.5 prc. The ELD-X 140 is used in the reference load for the B-14, but I struggled to get sub-moa out of them. Just good enough I can't say it doesn't. I think the whole experience with buying the gun kinda ruined it for me and I just can't get it to chasing small groups with it.
That might be a bigger gift than the gun itself; a lesson on optics, rings, upgrades, ammo. I think a kid would get cheated if they are just handed a custom rifle that shots ragged holes with store bought ammo. Wives are a different story.
My first centerfire rifle was a $69 chinese sks from the pawn shop that I saved up for. The ergonomics are perfect for kids, and bayonet gives it more utility around the house. I learned about gas systems, numerous renditions of scope mounts and scopes that never worked, trigger groups, select fire mechanisms, incendiary, tracer, AP, AP incendiary rounds, ranging open sights, cleaning off cosmoline, magazine adaptors vs stripper clips, After a few years of perfecting the rifle, which means it is unchanged from the factory, I killed my first deer, dressed it, hauled it back to camp and started butchering it by myself. No dad around, but I got my rifle.
Foggy47
5 year old buck +
In the 1980's I bought a used Ruger 77 Varmint Rifle in 22-250 for my first "real" accuracy gun.....which was soon followed with a Ruger 77 in 243 and a Ruger 77 in 223. And so started my experience with accuracy and prairie dog shooting.
I had a friend with some custom built rilfles that were based on the Remington 700 action.....and is known as a better starting platform for accuracy than the Rugers.....which I did not know at the time.
Anyway....I realized his guns were far superior to mine.....and aat that point we were alllusing the cheapest components to reload that we could find. For our 223 rounds we could get them reloaded for about 12 cents / round. 5 cents for a bullet (Remington Core locks, 1cent for a prmer and the rest on powder from Hogden (J.B. Hogeden is a good friend of mine to this day).
At first my freinds loads were far better than mine.....as he had better guns. But I discovered that getting my bullets seated out....close to the rifling.....were getting far better results than his custom guns could provide. And so, my quest for better handleds began.
I cannot tell you how many hours I spent in those days "candeling" bulletls to get some soot on the bullet so I could later interpret the precise seating depth needed to get better accuracy. This soot method was the best available a that time.
So.....I finally decided there had to be a better way......and spent an entire winter in my basement to find a better solution to bullet seating depth for center fire rilfes. Lol. I spent allot of hours to figure out a tool that could provide the needed function.
The result is still in production today....as the Hornaday Lock and Load OAL Gauge...which I invented int eat 1980's. More refinements over time with the bullet comparator and headspace gauges and more. The first lathe I bought to make modified cases cost me $1000.....and I had to re-build it to get it to work....and covert it to single phase power too. I had next to NO money to do this.....but followed through on my dream.
My biz started on $5000 cash and that was it. Bought a few extrusion dies and a few lbs of material......which almost killed my budget....and made a few products. Not sure how I was lucky enough to sell some stuff.....but each small sale at gun shows helped to fuel my fire. Soon I was at the NRA Nationals to see if I could sell this thing.....and they ate it up. Next....was a call on my friend at Sinclair International whom immediately gave me a big order.. Still not huge business......but over time I was able to find some confidence and quit my day job. I though my wife would kill me that day. lol.
And ...that my freinds is how you make better accuracy.....Still works......lol. Man...the stories I could tell............
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That's a great story, and glad to meet you so to speak. Being a poor boy too, I tried to copy your OAL gauge back in the late 90s or early 2000s for my own use, because I could not afford one and had no real tools to make one, so I drilled out a case, glued a bullet to a piece rod and attempted it with so-so results.
I am sure you have heard the story, and I cannot remember the guy's name, but he set a record or two (600 yard BR I think) using a factory M77 on a Harris bipod, then went on to join the US shooting team. Like you, it was all about the hand loads.
I much further behind the curve than you, but after a bad experience with a fake gunsmith a couple years ago I decided to get myself a lathe and learn it myself. I just so happen to buy a lathe from a classified ad, and it turned out to be a guy with the nick name "Bullseye..." from SoCal and there is some connection with that Tooley guy. He won't claim to be a gunsmith, but he is in my opinion, and he is still teaching me today. Now I have a couple chambered barrels under my belt, one profiling, and I have this endless stream of people bringing me barreled actions for muzzle work which I do in the evenings and weekends. Muzzle work is the only thing I feel comfortable enough with to do for other people, and I haven't been charging for it. I make it clear I am not a gunsmith and this is more or less practice for me, everyone is good with that.
Then this week I have a friend who has been to gunsmith school, but has yet to be able to use it to make much money, and he wants to start a business. So here we go, starting with a Taiwanese lathe and Bridgeport series one I am going to pursue a dream.
Foggy47
5 year old buck +
^ Good on you West_Fork. It really requires a passion like you say in order to realize your dreams. I never knew how to machine close tolerance parts.....but I always was able to learn how to do things and / or find the answers or get the needed help from others. Fun.....yet challenging journey for certain.
The first OAL gauges I made were with rigid copper tubing and I silver soldered the tubes to to a drilled out cartridge case. It was pretty crude....but with every "cut and try" approach....I learned a better method until I stumbled on a still better answer.
Also, I did ALLOT of reading in those times.....and read books dating back into the 40's and 50's by some of the pioneers in the accurate rifle game. O'Conner, Sharp, Ackley, Precision Shooting articles, and many others. They all did allot of research to come up with answers too. Great adventure.
The first OAL gauges I made were with rigid copper tubing and I silver soldered the tubes to to a drilled out cartridge case. It was pretty crude....but with every "cut and try" approach....I learned a better method until I stumbled on a still better answer.
Also, I did ALLOT of reading in those times.....and read books dating back into the 40's and 50's by some of the pioneers in the accurate rifle game. O'Conner, Sharp, Ackley, Precision Shooting articles, and many others. They all did allot of research to come up with answers too. Great adventure.
Foggy47
5 year old buck +
^Funny thing about that thought. When I first went to Camp Perry for the NRA National Matches about 1990 or so..... Some of the best shooters in the Nation were there. Guys like David Tubb, and all the Seals and different branches of the armed forces shooting teams as well as some well-known civilian shooters and all the Armorers from the different branches of the service.
Anyway.....before I was gonna quit my day job.....I figured if anyone had issues with my products....this would be the place to find out. So the first day......when the teams were out shooting on the range.....I'd go and see the different armorers at the trailers they would bring to the matches. Almost all the military armorers would not even consider what I had....as the military had a throat gauge (basically a go / no go gauge) called a Mo's Gauge that they used to measure throat erosion. Also a few other guys were using the RCBS precision mike.....(I had one too at that time)......and it was not a very good design IMO. That is about all that was out there to do this function....other than the said candle soot method or using a magic marker.
I didn't know it at the time.....but these military armorers and military "gun smiths" were almost incapable of independent thinking and only would do what was military Issue....or "in the book". Other ideas were off limits. Was really an off-putting experience. I was almost ready to pack my stuff and go home....as they did not see the value in what I had to offer.
But in the evening when the "real" shooters would come into my display.......I met some savvy shooters from the various shooting squads....and those guys really got into what I had to offer. Also, met a few members of the "gun press" who were visiting the show and got allot of encouragement from them. I ended up to sell quite a few tools at that event.....and a few SEAL team members really encouraged me to keep the faith.
( Made a few good friends with some SEALS in particular. Some of those guys had helped make the movie Top Gun and had to rescue Goose after he ejected into the ocean. Cool stories).
I was never really sure how big of a market there was for such stuff.....and that was really a difficult issue to quantify. It took some time.....but it was "big enough" for me.
Electrodigical
5 year old buck +
I talk about this all the time. Using soot, using magic markers, loading bullets backwards to try to find the "throat" (or at least something in the neighborhood), putting tiny strips of tape on the ogive to get them to determine a seating depth juuuuust off the lands. All the crazy things I could think to try that MIGHT work. With what's available today I accomplish the same thing in seconds that could take me half the night back then.
Foggy47
5 year old buck +
Yep.....and when I was doing lots of target and Prairie Dog shooting and playing with a variety of bullets.....it gets even more difficult. We would shoot as many as 1000+ rounds of varmint bullets over a weekend back in the 80's. So, after a big weekend.....the lands were not where they used to be and we'd be chasing the lands again.
I found it was very critical to get my varmint bullets to just kiss the lands. (Tho....I always promoted to leave about .020" jump for most guns.....in case you want to unload the round from the chanmber.....as in a hunting rifle.) Seating on or into the lands also serves to get your bullets concentric with the bore and supported so the case does not move when the firing pin strikes. Small changes have big effects. Some bench-rest shooters will jam the bullets .010" or more into the rifling for better accuracy. (good luck with unloading an unfired round)
I went looking to buy some tools for this....and in those times there was not much out there. What was out there was not very good at this function. Sinclair made one.....but they sold 10 to 1 of my product over their product in time. So.....necessity was the mother of this invention.
Wind Gypsy
5 year old buck +
Yes, increases it.
Edit to add: this is a graphic I frequently use in similar discussions about impact of seating depth on pressure. Extents vary by cartridge, bullet, and powder im sure but it is a helpful graphic.
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Jerry-B-WI
5 year old buck +
I would think that jamming a bullet .010 into the rifling would actually seat the bullet farther into the case. Changing the load density and messing with the time/pressure curve in a way that's not predictable.
Foggy47
5 year old buck +
Yep.....and it can alter things quite a bit.....and is not recomended for most of us. I'm just saying what some shooters will do. I do not have any recent data to offer here....just what I have seen.
There is also quite a bit of difference in how folks will throat a barrel. Some have a very abrupt leade and others have a more tapered leade....into the rifling. The graph above was likely the thinking that Weatherby had at one time.....to get a "running start" of the bullet into the rifling and therefore faster speeds....albeit at some cost in accuracy.....IMO.
Edit: ......and I am so out of date on this topic that I gotta refrain from giving too much advice. It's been nearly 20 years since I had a keen interest in such things. Lots of ideas have changed and recent tech is better. Still....close tolerances in the fit of the cartridge to the chamber will typically yield a better accuracy result.
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Wind Gypsy
5 year old buck +
If it is the same round to round, I don’t see why it wouldn’t be as consistent as anything else? I could see neck tension consistency being more important to make sure the bullets all either push into the lands or back into the case the same.
Foggy47
5 year old buck +
I think your right here Gypsy.....and finding the "jamb" or shooting the "jamb" was what some would talk about being the best for their bench rest rifles. that could mean lots of things....depending on how you interpret the term "jamb".
At times I would alter the neck tensions (via neck turning) on my bench rest gun to be quite minimal.....and I did try to seat the bullets long in the cases and let the barrel seat the bullets. That was not my best solution tho. Later I increased the neck tension a bit....and seated the bullets about .002" long for what some would call a "crush fit"......and others may call a jamb. The bullet would be a bit engraved by the rifling.....IIRC. At that time moly was a big thing too....and the extra lubricity was said to be a factor. I was not a big fan of moly. Not sure what folks are doing these days.
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Jerry-B-WI
5 year old buck +
I was thinking more of the process of working up a load. How do you know where to start if you're introducing an unknown variable?
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