Baiting, I know this has been discussed and discussed this is just my rant....LOL

[BenA]

I don’t know, none of us do. Hell the state doesn’t cause they don’t have a way to measure the alternative.
And for the record I never have thought bait would decimate the herd. I think it ruins the age structure.

Baiting doesn't ruin the age structure. A combination of regulations does that. There can be a poor age structure where baiting is not allowed. There can be a great age structure where baiting is allowed.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

Agree to disagree
It’s not the smoking gun but it’s a huge contributor in my opinion

 

[omicron1792]

I am a firm believer that numbers are not falling. There’s not a single property I know of that is lacking for hunters. This chart shows that it has been growing consistently as an overall trend. The one thing that nobody ever mentions is how much land is lost every single year. Now, when you overlay that with the upward trend in hunter numbers, never mind the boom in hunter participation by license holder from things like work from home, cell phone connectivity, traveling made easier, I would argue we actually have too many hunters on the landscape as evidenced by vocal displeasure on how crowded places are and lack of quality experience.

View attachment 90225

Absolutely staggering-

• From 2017–2022, Kentucky lost about 546,000 acres of farmland.
• That equals roughly:
  • 109,000 acres per year
  • ~290 acres per day

I’m a believer that the narrative about declining Hunter numbers is being pushed by organizations who seek to benefit financially from more hunters. Or at least benefit from the existing hunters donating/supporting for fear that we are losing hunting pushed by these organizations.

But the biologist said hunter numbers were decreasing. If you don’t believe that wouldn’t you have to throw out the rest of the info he gave too?

 

[BenA]

Agree to disagree
It’s not the smoking gun but it’s a huge contributor in my opinion

I don't disagree that it can help contribute to a skewed age structure. But, you're not going to get a great age structure by eliminating baiting. Hunters aren't doing a great job of managing deer populations in many cases. They're taking too many bucks and not enough does. Stopping baiting isn't going to change that. Hunters are going to get fired from managing deer if we keep mismanaging them like this. They're working on Immunocontraception for deer all the time. Sharpshooters are being employed. We need to focus on managing the herd better as a group instead of nitpicking over baiting and weapons.

 

[SwampCat]

I don’t know, none of us do. Hell the state doesn’t cause they don’t have a way to measure the alternative.
And for the record I never have thought bait would decimate the herd. I think it ruins the age structure.

And in my area, what I see is baiting allows small property owners, who would not have many deer, the ability to rape the doe herd and limit deer population growth. We dont kill does on our land because we know the small landowning neighbors are going to.

In a state where almost everyone hunting private land uses bait, AR has one of the highest percentage of 3.5 and older bucks killed.

Deer harvest is becoming more and more about personal decisions. 30 years, before APR’s - and we had no bucks older than 1.5 - all deer were created equal. My group would as soon kill a doe as a spike - and we tried to kill a limit. I have teenage grand daughters who wont shoot a young buck now. They dont even wake up and look when I tell them a doe is in the food plot.

In KY, 300,000 hunters are killing 145,000 deer - with an expanding deer population. Do you think more deer are not killed because folks dont have the chance - or are choosing not to kill them? All the folks I know who didnt kill a deer last fall had multiple opportunities but chose not to. It doesnt matter what kind of regulations you have - if people arent killing a deer with an eight week rifle season and five deer limit because they choose not to - they arent going to kill a deer if you double the season or bag limit.

What I have seen - including the Louisiana hunters who used to kill a fawn with milk on its lips - the fewer the deer seen, the more likely folks are to shoot one when they do see it. The more deer seen - including those past Louisiana fawn killers - the less likely they are to shoot.

I also think, as the human population age increases - a greater percentage of the hunting licenses are owned by older folks - like me - who quite possibly dont hunt as much or as seriously. I know a quite a few guys my age and older who buy hunting licenses, because they always have - and never go and if they do - they dont want to mess with a dead deer in the first place.

I live in a very rural area with an extremely strong hunting tradition. I am 25 miles from the closest stop light. Plenty of public land availability. I have seen a big increase in the age structure of the hunters, and a huge decrease in the effort of the hunters.

Just because the number of hunters is static, does not mean the effort is

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

But the biologist said hunter numbers were decreasing. If you don’t believe that wouldn’t you have to throw out the rest of the info he gave too?

I’ve never seen a study that showed Hunter per acre of undeveloped land. But I can do some rough math here to illustrate my point
Ky had 57,000 less hunters in 2010 than it did in 2023. So right off the bat we are increasing. If ky loses an avg of 100,000 acres a year that is 1.3 MILLION less acres over that same span where numbers increased. So….not seeing where we have a hunter number issue. What am I missing?

Yeah I don’t necessarily believe the biologist is painting the whole picture here.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

I don't disagree that it can help contribute to a skewed age structure. But, you're not going to get a great age structure by eliminating baiting. Hunters aren't doing a great job of managing deer populations in many cases. They're taking too many bucks and not enough does. Stopping baiting isn't going to change that. Hunters are going to get fired from managing deer if we keep mismanaging them like this. They're working on Immunocontraception for deer all the time. Sharpshooters are being employed. We need to focus on managing the herd better as a group instead of nitpicking over baiting and weapons.

Sounds like a perfect opportunity to slip in my thermal season and year round any weapon. Ends justify the means

 

[BenA]

Sounds like a perfect opportunity to slip in my thermal season and year round any weapon. Ends justify the means

May come to that if deer continue to be pests in some areas, and hunters don't step up.

 

[omicron1792]

Sounds like a perfect opportunity to slip in my thermal season and year round any weapon. Ends justify the means

Sounds like a strawman to me

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

Sounds like a strawman to me

Do we need to get numbers down or we risk being replaced?

 

[omicron1792]

Do we need to get numbers down or we risk being replaced?

I do think many state departments would like deer numbers down. Yes.

I think we should support methods to harvest more deer, not less. Yes.

The new seek one video is a good one. They have a big doe day at end of season and kill like 150 does. They donate all the meat. It’s a fun environment they create and they often get people their first deer kill.

 

[SwampCat]

Do we need to get numbers down or we risk being replaced?

Problem is, if hunters dont get numbers down, hunters
may be part of the reason thermal scopes and other means are allowed.

Specifically speaking - you have said you have a high doe population and dont kill them - why not.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

Problem is, if hunters dont get numbers down, hunters
may be part of the reason thermal scopes and other means are allowed.

Specifically speaking - you have said you have a high doe population and dont kill them - why not.

I do kill some. This year I had some help with EHD. I’ve found about 15 more this off season.
Honestly though it’s a pain. I’m working on getting a set up to where killing does is a lot smoother process for me.

 

[BC Buck]

People spending $2k plus to lease land dont want to mess with killing does. I need to harvest 10 doe per year and average 2. Its a PITA dealing with proper handling of venison in MO till Dec. Also I only need 75LB of venison a year. Some processors want $75 per deer for the share the harvest program. Think $150 for cut and wrap and will need to take out a loan for sausages.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

People spending $2k plus to lease land dont want to mess with killing does. I need to harvest 10 doe per year and average 2. Its a PITA dealing with proper handling of venison in MO till Dec. Also I only need 75LB of venison a year. Some processors want $75 per deer for the share the harvest program. Think $150 for cut and wrap and will need to take out a loan for sausages.

Yea I was $200 for like 27 lbs this year. Just ground and breakfast sausage. That’s $7.5/lb. Healthier and I know where it came from but honestly beef is better. The sausage is meh. If I get into specialty products I’d be $300 plus. Insane. I need to shoot 20 on a normal year. Can’t hardly round up buddies to come and help.
I brought this up in another thread about some rambling thoughts but at what point does a man concerned about the health of the herd and his property end up tossing some does in a ditch. Probably no different than government sharpshooters. I don’t like the idea but it can be overwhelming. I’m fortunate that it’s still free for me to donate, I do have to gut it and drive 45 minutes round trip so not without some effort. And they don’t work Sundays and close at 3 pm on Saturdays so another hurdle.

 

[Brian662]

Yea I was $200 for like 27 lbs this year. Just ground and breakfast sausage. That’s $7.5/lb. Healthier and I know where it came from but honestly beef is better. The sausage is meh. If I get into specialty products I’d be $300 plus. Insane. I need to shoot 20 on a normal year. Can’t hardly round up buddies to come and help.
I brought this up in another thread about some rambling thoughts but at what point does a man concerned about the health of the herd and his property end up tossing some does in a ditch. Probably no different than government sharpshooters. I don’t like the idea but it can be overwhelming. I’m fortunate that it’s still free for me to donate, I do have to gut it and drive 45 minutes round trip so not without some effort. And they don’t work Sundays and close at 3 pm on Saturdays so another hurdle.

Donation places by me aren't open at all on the weekend and have to be CWD tested to drop them off. It's not ideal, but it's going to have to start being utilized.

 

[BenA]

I can have a deer broken down into pieces and back at the truck in an ice chest in under 45 minutes. I grind most of the meat at home and package the other cuts in freezer paper. I can give some away if there's no room. I've done 4 deer in a weekend before like that. My wife would have a fit if I took our deer to a processor and actually paid somebody to do it.