Howboutthemdawgs
5 year old buck +
Yeah idk. I guess if you did something in season with the sole intent to attract deer to you, I suppose you could make the argument.
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Baiting, I know this has been discussed and discussed this is just my rant....LOL
- Thread starter Turkey Creek
- Start date
Derek Reese 29
5 year old buck +
At least there’s the effort part there of having to run the saw and probably using what’s left after the deer feast for firewood….
Natty Bumppo
5 year old buck +
Yeah agree to both. Trying to wrap my head around baiting just as a purely philosophical argument.
In Massachusetts....
1) I can bait coyotes, but not deer. So it's not "the act" of baiting that presents a moral, ethical, legal challenge..its the target species.
2) I can use a fake water hole (I don't need to...but I could) to sit over to attract deer...but not a salt block.
3) I can use a turkey decoy to lure or "bait" turkeys...but not a deer decoy? Makes no sense.
4) I can plant and grow apples, but I can't throw bags of them out.
5) I can plant and grow corn to attract deer, but I can't throw corn out..to attract deer.
Not sure if "effort' should be the line in the sand as to what's considered baiting and what's not. I get the argument. I go through a lot of time and energy to make and maintain my food plots. A lot of time and energy to plant and grow apples. So...not baiting. Whereas a guy who dumps a 50 lb. bag of corn out spends 10 minutes and $17. Baiting. Seems like the "cheap" way out. But in the end, we are both doing the same thing...manipulating deer movements to make an ambush easier.
Feelslikefar.
5 year old buck +
I never thought about that. I can bait a trap for a coyote. But if I sit off a ways and watch the trap, and shoot it before it gets caught in the trap, I'd be breaking the law. Shooting it after it's in the trap, totally legal.
I plant a lot of food plots mostly to feed deer thru late fall and winter. Small grains, clover, radishes, turnips chicory; a blend to provide high nutrition for as many months as possible. They range in size from 3 acres to about 10 acres and we definitely hunt them. In some of the bigger fields I place a spin feeder with corn close enough to a blind to help assure a good shot especially for some of the kids and elderly that hunt with me. These are prime spots to help manage population and doe harvest.
I think I can safely say that a deer never enters the field just to come to the corn. They come grazing what's planted and some will ultimately make their way by the feeder. Some never make their way to the feeder. Everyone of them come to the field for what's planted. Attraction is attraction at least on my farm. Consider that for whatever it's worth.
I think I can safely say that a deer never enters the field just to come to the corn. They come grazing what's planted and some will ultimately make their way by the feeder. Some never make their way to the feeder. Everyone of them come to the field for what's planted. Attraction is attraction at least on my farm. Consider that for whatever it's worth.
In many, many parts of life and society there exist standards based on elevating level of effort above some arbitrary minimum threshold. “Effort” seems like a perfectly reasonable measure to me. Game laws have used “level of effort” as a foundation since their creation! Conservation and trophy groups like P&Y and B&C have used “effort” as a measuring stick for entry, too.
Again, though, ethics need not be a part of the conversation to sufficiently describe the demerits of baiting. We gravitate to ethics because it’s so subjective and impossible to pin down, but that debate is unnecessary.
Is effort the difference between baiting and not. I have a two acre food plot about 3/4 mile from the house. I have to spray it once by tractor - about 1 1/2 hours including travel to and from. I have to plant it - about 1 1/2 hours including over and back. I might spray it one more time. Say 5 hours for the year labor.
I have a bait sight in the edge of the woods near the food plot I maintain from early july to possibly late Dec - 180 days and freshen every four days - 45 times. About a 20 minute round trip by sxs - or 15 hours effort for the bait site and five hours for the food plot. So effort really is not a determining factor.
Cost? The bait site monetary expenditure is multitudes more expensive.
I have a bait sight in the edge of the woods near the food plot I maintain from early july to possibly late Dec - 180 days and freshen every four days - 45 times. About a 20 minute round trip by sxs - or 15 hours effort for the bait site and five hours for the food plot. So effort really is not a determining factor.
Cost? The bait site monetary expenditure is multitudes more expensive.
Derek Reese 29
5 year old buck +
At least it makes us habitat-types feel better about all the time, money, planning, blood, sweat and tears we throw into improving our little chunks of Heaven…a few years ago my Dad caught a guy trespassing and sitting in one of our stands..he flat out told him if he would contribute to the food plot and treestand costs, show up when we were planting, liming, fertilizing, etc. and help cut trails he was welcome to hunt that stand..needless to say the guy left with the parting comment..” there’s just a lot more deer over here.”..I get it that I am a fortunate man in that I have private land to manage and hunt on, but I think people who do not own (those who hunt public land included) have no idea the effort and cost it takes to maintain even trivial amounts (like my little 9 acres)
With complete innocence I ask exactly what are the demerits of baiting beyond personal opinion? Not looking for some big emotional argument just concise facts .
It's cold and damp outside and I'm spending too much time on computer.
Derek Reese 29
5 year old buck +
I think we are all ready for spring and all spending way too much time on the computer …I would say if Baiting year round there are only ethical and disease considerations but if only putting out corn to hunt over in season I’ve heard of negative effects on the deer’s nutrition if it’s used after their diet has changed over to more woody browse…and the same disease considerations would remain..I speak as someone who has never baited (as it’s illegal here) though
In considering effort, I started out with a 4 wheeler, a tow behind spreader, and a 4 ft atv disk. There is a huge difference in time that equipment takes compared to my tractor, 55 gal sprayer, and Woods seeder. That said, if timing is right, a throw n mow works great, is quick - and doesnt take a lot of high end equipment
In my opinion and experience, as one who baits, supplemental feeds, plants food plots, and fosters the growth of native vegetation - I know that each of these methods can be labor and equipment heavy or a passing fancy.
My problem with baiting in the most thought of definition of the term - is the ease with which it can be done in the usual methods, and in most cases, the total lack of benefit to deer it provides. I would welcome some next door neighbors who kept protein feeders out year round - but to be honest, the standard free choice protein feeders are the most likely to spread disease of any feeder type.
And while I invest a lot of time into baiting - and I include out of season feeding as part of my baiting as it helps condition the deer - a lot of folks dont carry it that far. And to be honest, it is not just the placement of bait that bothers me so much - typically, the feeder will be placed very near my property line, typically, the bait will be available only during deer season, and many of these small landowners harvest way more than their habitat and effort supports. It is not uncommon for my neighbors to kill a deer per three or four acres. My buddy who hunts my neighbor’s 1100 acres puts out tons of bait and might kill one buck and never a doe. I have another neighbor about the same - and one in betweener.
But you cant legislate one without legislating all. You cant stop an incidental baiter with no plan without stopping a hunter who is providing a steady high protein food source and has a very restrictive harvest plan.
On the other hand, I feel some sorry for my small landowning neighbors who do this. They dont have the money to pay for a lease. Public land is sparse - and crowded. They like the chance to do some deer hunting and put some meat in the freezer - but they never had the expendable money to spend it on recreational land.
But in my mind, the only way to regulate what they are doing with a bait site is restrict everyone.
My problem with baiting in the most thought of definition of the term - is the ease with which it can be done in the usual methods, and in most cases, the total lack of benefit to deer it provides. I would welcome some next door neighbors who kept protein feeders out year round - but to be honest, the standard free choice protein feeders are the most likely to spread disease of any feeder type.
And while I invest a lot of time into baiting - and I include out of season feeding as part of my baiting as it helps condition the deer - a lot of folks dont carry it that far. And to be honest, it is not just the placement of bait that bothers me so much - typically, the feeder will be placed very near my property line, typically, the bait will be available only during deer season, and many of these small landowners harvest way more than their habitat and effort supports. It is not uncommon for my neighbors to kill a deer per three or four acres. My buddy who hunts my neighbor’s 1100 acres puts out tons of bait and might kill one buck and never a doe. I have another neighbor about the same - and one in betweener.
But you cant legislate one without legislating all. You cant stop an incidental baiter with no plan without stopping a hunter who is providing a steady high protein food source and has a very restrictive harvest plan.
On the other hand, I feel some sorry for my small landowning neighbors who do this. They dont have the money to pay for a lease. Public land is sparse - and crowded. They like the chance to do some deer hunting and put some meat in the freezer - but they never had the expendable money to spend it on recreational land.
But in my mind, the only way to regulate what they are doing with a bait site is restrict everyone.
Unnatural congregation of wildlife is generally harmful. Lots of general research shows that. Deer-specific research has quantified deer-deer interactions at bait sites compared to food plots and acorn feeding sites. Results didn’t strike me as something I want to promote. Corn in the Deep South is prone to aflatoxin, which readily kills turkey, quail, and others. It subsidizes predator populations in an era that turkey and quail lovers complain about predators. It subsidizes wild pig populations. It promotes overpopulation of deer when harvest isn’t kept up. It’s not something I’ve heard a single respected wildlife biologist in my area recommend.
I’m not talking about supplemental feeding, for which about 0.05% of applications may have arguable offsetting benefits.
I’ll stop there since I have to keep my opinion out of it.
And it’s not cold and damp in LA. Where you at??
Double Creek
5 year old buck +
This is why I’m against baiting. Especially the negative effects it has on turkeys and quail. Not only aflatoxins but also promoting abnormally high nest predator concentrations. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that turkey populations are declining at the same time that a lot of states have lifted baiting restrictions.
There are definitely safe ways to feed, but let’s be honest, the majority of hunters using bait are only concerned with killing deer and are not making efforts to keep it safe for other wildlife.
I'm in central La. Cold is a relative term. Dipped into the 50's this morning.
I was hoping you would respond.I see two biologically supported reasons not to bait.
1) In some instances where the deer are not used to a rich feed like Corn and have been on mainly a native diet the sudden consumption of large amounts of corn can create gut problems that lead to a quick death. Classic scenario is when well meaning people put large amounts of corn out late winter thinking they are helping the deer. It may happen in typical baiting scenarios for hunting but I imagine very rare.
2) As you mentioned the aflatoxin in corn could have a negative effect on turkeys quail etc.. I had a biologist friend say he believes that is one of the reasons for turkey decline in many areas. Seems a reasonable concern in wet humid warm areas where there are turkeys?
I was hoping the idea that baiting somehow increases chances of disease spread. Seems a mantra especially with govt. biologist. However, to date I am unfamiliar with a single study supporting this idea. Contrarily there is a mountain of evidence that feeding deer does no harm whatsoever. Start with the fact that deer are constantly grooming each other yr. round. This behavior continues as the yr. progresses and grouping dynamics change with different social groups interacting . Right now this time of year deer are typically clustered together in large groups traveling together. Bucks are back together. Large female family groups are together. Deer are social animals in constant contact with each other. Given the chance deer have been traveling the same paths in the same areas for decades or more. None of this is that dramatically different than behavior around a feeder nor has been verified as reason disease spreads.
Secondly. There is no difference between feeding corn and supplementally feeding protein pellets regarding congregating deer . There are thousands...maybe millions? ...of tons of protein fed annually in Tx alone.This has been going on for decades. The net effect is only an improvement in health and quality. Numerous biologist are involved in this. Not only are there no concerns, it is readily promoted as highly beneficial. My personal experience is I feed over 300 tons of protein a year some in the wet humid environment of La. and some in the arid brush country along the Rio Grande. I live on my farm watching the deer every day. My observations sync with what every private biologist I know says ; supplementation is a good thing. I see no difference between this and baiting on a deers health. Do you?
Lastly, every university deer research center has deer pens. I've been to the MSU pens and worked with Dr. Harry Jacobson quite a bit. If there ever was such a thing as " unnatural congregation " you find it in circumstances like this. Yet these programs have been ongoing for many years now with no problems. I could expand on this quite a bit but will leave for now.
Enough for now.
Jacobson also originated the mantra “once a spike, always a spike.” It’s the MSU Deer Lab leaders that have most shaped my understanding of the facts on this topic, so I’m glad you brought them up.
You don’t think disease and bacteria is more prevalent at bait sites? Or are you just saying there’s no categorical research following deer around to document their disease susceptibility? The first is enough for me. Requiring the latter is for those that can’t apply some basic logic.
Deer are literally consuming each others urine, feces, saliva and other bodily fluids at bait sites. I can’t equate that to grooming, commonly done among family groups.
While I’m no NDA fan, this is a decent lit search. https://deerassociation.com/can-baiting-and-feeding-really-spread-deer-diseases-faster/
I’m interested in comparable peer reviewed research that shows baiting does “no harm whatsoever” relative to disease exposure.
You don’t think disease and bacteria is more prevalent at bait sites? Or are you just saying there’s no categorical research following deer around to document their disease susceptibility? The first is enough for me. Requiring the latter is for those that can’t apply some basic logic.
Deer are literally consuming each others urine, feces, saliva and other bodily fluids at bait sites. I can’t equate that to grooming, commonly done among family groups.
While I’m no NDA fan, this is a decent lit search. https://deerassociation.com/can-baiting-and-feeding-really-spread-deer-diseases-faster/
I’m interested in comparable peer reviewed research that shows baiting does “no harm whatsoever” relative to disease exposure.
BenA
5 year old buck +
Have you ever seen the ground under a heavily used white oak, persimmon, crab apple, etc? Have you seen the difference inside and outside an exclusion cage on a well used food plot? That uniform level of short clipped vegetation means there are mouths feeding evenly and heavily across its entirety.
Of those examples, I have never seen shin deep mud, urine and feces, with the food/grain on top of and within it. i have seen that at a bait site. It disgusted me.
I'll need to be brief cause my wife is calling.
Jacobson did NOT originate the mantra " once a spike..." Actually it was his research that proved unequivocally that one cannot predict what a spike will become and that they are not genetically inferior . Land mark stuff at the time. Please share info from MSU that supports the belief that disease is more prevalently dispersed at feed sites. And what diseases we are talking about? Here is some basic logic...show me anything that shows specific diseases spread by feeding deer with real world examples..
I am saying there is no research I know of supporting the idea that disease is spread from bait or feed sites. I am saying there is a wealth on a giant scale of anecdotal evidence showing no correlation between feeding deer and spread of disease and in fact deer are healthier when fed quality supplements.
I'm interested in comparable peer reviewed research that shows feeding has caused any material harm anywhere at any time.
I'll have to look at the NDA stuff tomorrow.
Jacobson did NOT originate the mantra " once a spike..." Actually it was his research that proved unequivocally that one cannot predict what a spike will become and that they are not genetically inferior . Land mark stuff at the time. Please share info from MSU that supports the belief that disease is more prevalently dispersed at feed sites. And what diseases we are talking about? Here is some basic logic...show me anything that shows specific diseases spread by feeding deer with real world examples..
I am saying there is no research I know of supporting the idea that disease is spread from bait or feed sites. I am saying there is a wealth on a giant scale of anecdotal evidence showing no correlation between feeding deer and spread of disease and in fact deer are healthier when fed quality supplements.
I'm interested in comparable peer reviewed research that shows feeding has caused any material harm anywhere at any time.
I'll have to look at the NDA stuff tomorrow.
