Back into Reloading......

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Anybody use win 748 much. Trying that for 308 and 30-30. Kid likely will be using it for 35 remington too.

aa2230 was easy to get, lots of reciepes for 223 with that.

 

[b116757]

I tried 748 years ago in 223 and never really found a great load with it.

 

[Jerry-B-WI]

Anybody use win 748 much. Trying that for 308 and 30-30. Kid likely will be using it for 35 remington too.

aa2230 was easy to get, lots of reciepes for 223 with that.

Check post #68

 

[Wind Gypsy]

That’s good info I’ll have to pick up some of the Leverevolution and give it a try.

It's supposedly up there with top dogs like CFE223 and 2520 when it comes to velocity potential too. I haven't pushed it until I saw pressure but 75 ELDm or 77 TMK @ mid 2700s from an 18" barrel has been good.

 

[b116757]

It's supposedly up there with top dogs like CFE223 and 2520 when it comes to velocity potential too. I haven't pushed it until I saw pressure but 75 ELDm or 77 TMK @ mid 2700s from an 18" barrel has been good.

Yes I was reading that after it was mentioned next time I see an 8lb of Leverevolution on the shelf I’ll likely buy it

 

[bigboreblr]

Yes I was reading that after it was mentioned next time I see an 8lb of Leverevolution on the shelf I’ll likely buy it

Cant say much about 223, but that stuff does some amazing things to old lever gun cartridges.

 

[bigboreblr]

Any little tricks to get a more consistent charge out of the powder masure? Using the standard lee one. Somewhere around .3 to .5 grains wandering. For now I am trying to go solid grains only. Reloaded 30-30 tonight 32,33,and 34 grains w748.

Got similar results loading the 450 marlin and 308.

Also, for lee users. Should I get those quick change bushings for the lee press? I have 3 die sets right now, might get a 4th.

 

[West_Fork]

Any little tricks to get a more consistent charge out of the powder masure? Using the standard lee one. Somewhere around .3 to .5 grains wandering. For now I am trying to go solid grains only. Reloaded 30-30 tonight 32,33,and 34 grains w748.

Got similar results loading the 450 marlin and 308.

Also, for lee users. Should I get those quick change bushings for the lee press? I have 3 die sets right now, might get a 4th.

Some folks put a baffle in the bottom of the hopper to help keep it from packing, but if I care at all I throw short and trickle the last grain or two.

I use the hornady quick change, and it is a real time saver. Plug and play, no need to worry about resetting dies everytime and finding the lock ring turned.

 

[b116757]

I normally only use a powder throw very very rarely do I weight each charge. I start by throwing 10 or so charges into cup and then dump that back in the hopper(no lid) then I throw the entire trays worth of cases with the same consistent movement making sure not to bump or even really touch the table the throw is mounted to. Afterword I use a small flashlight and do a quick visual inspection inside each case to see that all powder levels look correct nothing empty or full. Ball powders throw the best next are the short cut stick powders last are the long cut stick powders. I hate throwing long cut stick powders with the powder throw it’s tougher to get consistent results. For 223 general use shooting of light bullets 50-55gr I run CFE223 or BLC-2 both are ball powders for extreme accuracy with those light bullets in 223 Benchmark a short cut stick powder. In my 6.5 creedmoor’s Superformance is really quite good and a ball powder so it throws like a dream H4350 being a short cut stick powder throws pretty well also but the long cut stick powders I avoid using. Some powders are available in both long cut and short cut buy the short cut powder versions
Here is photo of H4831SC(Short Cut) and H4831

 

[Wind Gypsy]

I’m new to the throwers after buying a harrells from @Foggy47 this year. Always used electronic dispensers but I sure like how fast a guy can throw in comparison. I didn’t have the most consistent weights when I tested thrown stick powder (h4895) but the ball powders seem to be pretty consistent.

 

[b116757]

Well when I look for an accuracy node I want it to be fairly wide an example of this is in 223 I load up 3 each of 23gr 23.3gr 23.6gr 23.9gr and 24.2gr I then shoot them and look at group sizes and SD from my magnetospeed of each powder charge and these powder charges are in fact thrown not weighed I may weigh them but only for the sake of safety so I don’t exceed published load data not to make sure that each thrown powder charge weighs that exact amount what I’m actually doing is adjusting my powder throw setting by .3 increments for each charge what they actually weigh is not that important to me except for record keeping if I where to buy a different brand of powder throw I could get close to my original load by weight. Ok I shoot all the test bullets

Throw setting 18.6=23gr SD 30 group size 2”
Throw setting 18.9=23.3gr SD 21 group size 1.4”
Throw setting 19.2=23.6gr SD 15 group size 1”
Throw setting 19.5=23.9gr SD 7 group size .6”
Throw setting 19.8=24.2gr SD 14 group size 1.1”

This would be very typical load testing session results that I’m looking for I’d use the powder throw setting of 19.5 for the 23.9gr group but the group on either side of it looking at group sizes and SD’s is still good so if I get a small deviation either way in my powder throws who cares. I’m likely still at 1 MOA or better. If the groups on either side of the 19.5 thrower setting had not had SD’s in the teens or lower I’d of scrapped that powder and tried another powder or a different bullet or bullet seating depth change. I like to buy some factory ammo when I buy a new gun usually any more many times Hornady match or Federal Gold Metal ammo will shoot sub MOA and I can measure the seating depth they are using if my gun likes that ammo and pick up some of whatever bullet that ammo was loaded with for load testing.

Kind of long winded hope it helps

 

[Foggy47]

Well when I look for an accuracy node I want it to be fairly wide an example of this is in 223 I load up 3 each of 23gr 23.3gr 23.6gr 23.9gr and 24.2gr I then shoot them and look at group sizes and SD from my magnetospeed of each powder charge and these powder charges are in fact thrown not weighed I may weigh them but only for the sake of safety so I don’t exceed published load data not to make sure that each thrown powder charge weighs that exact amount what I’m actually doing is adjusting my powder throw setting by .3 increments for each charge what they actually weigh is not that important to me except for record keeping if I where to buy a different brand of powder throw I could get close to my original load by weight. Ok I shoot all the test bullets

Throw setting 18.6=23gr SD 30 group size 2”
Throw setting 18.9=23.3gr SD 21 group size 1.4”
Throw setting 19.2=23.6gr SD 15 group size 1”
Throw setting 19.5=23.9gr SD 7 group size .6”
Throw setting 19.8=24.2gr SD 14 group size 1.1”

This would be very typical load testing session results that I’m looking for I’d use the powder throw setting of 19.5 for the 23.9gr group but the group on either side of it looking at group sizes and SD’s is still good so if I get a small deviation either way in my powder throws who cares. I’m likely still at 1 MOA or better. If the groups on either side of the 19.5 thrower setting had not had SD’s in the teens or lower I’d of scrapped that powder and tried another powder or a different bullet or bullet seating depth change. I like to buy some factory ammo when I buy a new gun usually any more many times Hornady match or Federal Gold Metal ammo will shoot sub MOA and I can measure the seating depth they are using if my gun likes that ammo and pick up some of whatever bullet that ammo was loaded with for load testing.

Kind of long winded hope it helps

When I visited Camp Perry many years ago......at the NRA National Matches they all had to use the "factory" loads supplied out of Lake City.....IIRC (maybe that was in one or two classes?? dunno). Anyway I had a discussion with a few guys on the Seals team about altering the seating depth of those loads to better suit their gun. Not sure if they ever did so......or if it was within the rules of the competition.

Later I thought about this for factory ammo in general. Check the max OAL then simply adjust the bullet seating depth via a kinetic pullet puller and reseat the bullets at the proper depth. I always wanted to do this and compare the results of the new length vs the factory supplied length....for hunting loads. (would have made a good case in my literature, or a good infomercial) but never got around to it.

 

[West_Fork]

I normally only use a powder throw very very rarely do I weight each charge. I start by throwing 10 or so charges into cup and then dump that back in the hopper(no lid) then I throw the entire trays worth of cases with the same consistent movement making sure not to bump or even really touch the table the throw is mounted to. Afterword I use a small flashlight and do a quick visual inspection inside each case to see that all powder levels look correct nothing empty or full. Ball powders throw the best next are the short cut stick powders last are the long cut stick powders. I hate throwing long cut stick powders with the powder throw it’s tougher to get consistent results. For 223 general use shooting of light bullets 50-55gr I run CFE223 or BLC-2 both are ball powders for extreme accuracy with those light bullets in 223 Benchmark a short cut stick powder. In my 6.5 creedmoor’s Superformance is really quite good and a ball powder so it throws like a dream H4350 being a short cut stick powder throws pretty well also but the long cut stick powders I avoid using. Some powders are available in both long cut and short cut buy the short cut powder versions
Here is photo of H4831SC(Short Cut) and H4831
View attachment 73554

I have several pounds of 4831, but I am trying out Viht 565, which loads the same in .243w. The first outing had great results with SDs half of 4831, the second outing had SDs very very similar to 4831. A couple more strings and I will make up my mind.

 

[West_Fork]

I’m new to the throwers after buying a harrells from @Foggy47 this year. Always used electronic dispensers but I sure like how fast a guy can throw in comparison. I didn’t have the most consistent weights when I tested thrown stick powder (h4895) but the ball powders seem to be pretty consistent.

I gave up on large kernal powder in measures, and why I too primarily use my charge master and a balance.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

I dont pay much attention to SDs anymore. For hunting, anything that is far enough for SDs to matter is likely beyond where I should be shooting at animals. My match guns have primarily been 6.5x47 and and cant seem to load ammo for that cartridge that doesn't have single digit SDs so that makes it easy! I have never had particularly good SDs in 223 no matter what ive done. Lapua brass, powder weighed to the kernal on an expensive scale, doesn't matter. I've heard jamming bullets can help with 223 SDs but I dont care enough to want to deal with jammed loads.

I have several pounds of 4831, but I am trying out Viht 565, which loads the same in .243w. The first outing had great results with SDs half of 4831, the second outing had SDs very very similar to 4831. A couple more strings and I will make up my mind.

I'd think you'd have N565 charges more in line with H1000 than H4831?

 

[West_Fork]

I dont pay much attention to SDs anymore. For hunting, anything that is far enough for SDs to matter is likely beyond where I should be shooting at animals. My match guns have primarily been 6.5x47 and and cant seem to load ammo for that cartridge that doesn't have single digit SDs so that makes it easy! I have never had particularly good SDs in 223 no matter what ive done. Lapua brass, powder weighed to the kernal on an expensive scale, doesn't matter. I've heard jamming bullets can help with 223 SDs but I dont care enough to want to deal with jammed loads.


I'd think you'd have N565 charges more in line with H1000 than H4831?

Not according to Viht's load data, but that's what I expected too and was looking for something just slightly slower than 4831. My velocities are in line with the Hog data, but way faster than the viht data. I am getting velocities around 2900 with a 108 and 44gr of 565 and a 27" barrel. This barrel does seem to be a bit faster than most, and its a fast twist.





I got suckered in to a gun conversation yesterday at a meeting with a known quantity. The guy was describing how his friend and him go elk hunting and are shooting animals at 1000 yards, describes the guys ability to produce 3" groups, cold bore, 1k, while laying on a hillside. I called bullshit, explained that he is talking about 1/8th moa of accuracy AND precision, and very few people in this world can achieve, much less maintain that kind of precision and accuracy. That is something that requires loading from the bench and it will change hour by hour. He then admitted to putting several bullets in the animal and it not going down and walked away before he had to admit to being a liar and unethical.

I find that's all I can do anymore, call bullshit, crush dreams. My life is all about leaving a wake of destruction anymore.

 

[b116757]

I shoot long range more than most and I’d only probably be comfortable trying a kill shot on a deer out to about 600yds. I have shot a 6” five shot group at a 1000yds but that is not the norm and it most defiantly was not a first round hit followed by 4 more. Small changes in the wind alone can have some rather large effects on group size at that range and so can the cant of the rifle I have bubble levels on all my long range rifles just for rifle cant. I did one time have a first round hit on a 12”x20” IDPA at a 1000yds with 223 but I’d been shooting my 6.5 Creedmoor already at that range and had a pretty good idea what to dial my wind to. I likely should have quit shooting altogether at that point in fact it was discussed at the shooting bench’s somewhat seriously after that shot.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Not according to Viht's load data, but that's what I expected too and was looking for something just slightly slower than 4831. My velocities are in line with the Hog data, but way faster than the viht data. I am getting velocities around 2900 with a 108 and 44gr of 565 and a 27" barrel. This barrel does seem to be a bit faster than most, and its a fast twist.
View attachment 73576
View attachment 73577

Yes, seems the main difference (besides different 108 bullets) is that viht is much more conservative. Generally speaking the N5xx series powders seem a little higher energy and can produce a little more velocity than a lot of the single based hodgdon extreme line. From what ive seen 565 is pretty close to h1000 on charge/velocity in many cases. I've come to find a lot of the single source data pretty poor for comparing apples to apples and this seems like a prime example of that. Edit: also just noticed they have a higher h1000 charge than retumbo, that is also odd.. Not sure if that has to do with powder density and retumbo taking up too much volume in that case or what but ive never seen that.

I got suckered in to a gun conversation yesterday at a meeting with a known quantity. The guy was describing how his friend and him go elk hunting and are shooting animals at 1000 yards, describes the guys ability to produce 3" groups, cold bore, 1k, while laying on a hillside. I called bullshit, explained that he is talking about 1/8th moa of accuracy AND precision, and very few people in this world can achieve, much less maintain that kind of precision and accuracy. That is something that requires loading from the bench and it will change hour by hour. He then admitted to putting several bullets in the animal and it not going down and walked away before he had to admit to being a liar and unethical.

I find that's all I can do anymore, call bullshit, crush dreams. My life is all about leaving a wake of destruction anymore.

Yeah, for starters hardly anybody is going to hit a 1 MOA target at 100 yds 90% of the time with their hunting rifle from a bench for a laundry list of reasons. A ton of people can shoot sub MOA 3-5 round groups on command but getting them centered on POA is a whole nother thing. That's at 100 yards. Not in the same universe as being able to read the wind at 1000 yards, have ammo that is consistent enough, hitting the right velocity with the given temperature/bore condition at any given time, having the right dope for the current density altitude, and equipment that adjusts perfectly..
Used to be pretty into the long range hunting thing until I realized that once you get out a little ways, the conditions can really mess with where the bullet is going to land and in order to understand that it takes an inordinate amount of practice. The more ive learned on all the ways i can miss, the shorter i think is reasonable to shoot, and all the people spraying and praying at long distance because they hit a gong one time at that distance just pisses me off.

 

[bigboreblr]

I dont shot far, I dont shoot alot of paper, I mostly shoot gongs at 50 and 100 probably 95% offhand. I do pratice standing up leaning the gun against a tree at 200 yards at a 6 inch gong. Every couple of years I shoot a deer past 100 yards. My one deer this year was a whopping 27 yards sitting on a little chair, back fully cocked all the way to my left, shooting right handed. Didn't even notice I was shooting right handed too. Thought of it after I shot.

What I was doing was plucking the powder charger. Thinking thats not good.

Hoping the weather cooperates this weeknd so I can try out my loads. Got 450 marln, 308, and 30-30 reloaded. Have to zero a 22 and a sks with burris fastfire red dots on them. Should recheck the zero on my 22lr scope as well. Got alot of cleaning to do afterwards.

Eyeing a nice 50 cal flintlock LH on gunbroker. Only got one LH gun right now. I wear safety glasses when I shoot RH caplock or flintloc left handed.

I got plently of factory ammunition. Besides taming down the 450 marlin, I really have no need to reload. Wondering what to do with all that, especially if point of impact changes much at reasonable distance on paper/gong.

 

[West_Fork]

Yes, seems the main difference (besides different 108 bullets) is that viht is much more conservative. Generally speaking the N5xx series powders seem a little higher energy and can produce a little more velocity than a lot of the single based hodgdon extreme line. From what ive seen 565 is pretty close to h1000 on charge/velocity in many cases. I've come to find a lot of the single source data pretty poor for comparing apples to apples and this seems like a prime example of that. Edit: also just noticed they have a higher h1000 charge than retumbo, that is also odd.. Not sure if that has to do with powder density and retumbo taking up too much volume in that case or what but ive never seen that.


Yeah, for starters hardly anybody is going to hit a 1 MOA target at 100 yds 90% of the time with their hunting rifle from a bench for a laundry list of reasons. A ton of people can shoot sub MOA 3-5 round groups on command but getting them centered on POA is a whole nother thing. That's at 100 yards. Not in the same universe as being able to read the wind at 1000 yards, have ammo that is consistent enough, hitting the right velocity with the given temperature/bore condition at any given time, having the right dope for the current density altitude, and equipment that adjusts perfectly..
Used to be pretty into the long range hunting thing until I realized that once you get out a little ways, the conditions can really mess with where the bullet is going to land and in order to understand that it takes an inordinate amount of practice. The more ive learned on all the ways i can miss, the shorter i think is reasonable to shoot, and all the people spraying and praying at long distance because they hit a gong one time at that distance just pisses me off.

Try comparing hodg with hornady, I am finding some wild differences. Seems like both over and under. I tend to trust hodggon more. I can't spell either hogdogon or vihtavouri.

I used to be able to afford that inordinate amount of practice in time and ammo, but not these days. In addition to the cost, it is kind of like mixing aluminum and nitrates. It was fun when it couldn't be bought in stores, and it had a sense of illegality. All shooting sports are like that. When you can put 500 live rounds down range per week, and fill down time with dry fire you get pretty good at shooting.

I just like the physics of it. Taking a small chunk of lead and copper and sending half a mile or more to hit something the size of pie dish. It's a kick.