Back into Reloading......

[Foggy47]

I see so many talking about how the 6.5 CM has let them down with killing power. Yet for decades 6.5's were known for punching well above their weight class. IMO mostly because they were long, heavy for caliber bullets, designed to expand and the relatively moderate velocities of the 6.5's of the time period. In recent years the 6.5 became the darling of the longer range shooter. Folks are all shooting sexy looking VLD bullets, often not designed for use on game, and often at ranges much farther greater than their abilities are up to (but they think it's okay now that they had a super sniper wonder rifle/cartridge.)

The text I was referencing about round nose bullets was probably close to 100 years ago (now that I realize it's 2025 lol) Maybe it was Hatcher? I don't remember anymore. When I was younger I read everything and anything I could get my hands on. Loved reading. Comprehension good, retention poor. ;)

LOL.....I did all that reading too. I had a traveling salesman job as a salesman for an aluminum company back then....and would read every shooting and hunting book I could.....and spent my evening hours learning about guns, shooting and ammo. Too much to ever know it all....but it was a fun adventure to read that stuff. I often would take my brass along on the road and do some case prep for the PD shoots to come. Did all the work except powder and bullets while on the road. Crazy. I still own a pretty good library of books from the 40's, 50's. 60's, and up...tho I have given many to my family as they have shown an interest. Warren Page, Jim Carmichael, Sharps, P. O. Ackley, Precision Shooting, maybe 10 magazines on hunting and shooting.....and many more books.

One book I have on all the cartridges ever made at that time (by Ken Howell.....whom I met and spent some time with at the Varmint Hunter's Jamboree) showed me that there were only about FIVE dimensions used to measure cartridge headspace from head to a datum line on the shoulder....as determined by SAMMI. I do not think anyone recognized this at the time...but it almost POPPED off the drawings made by Ken in his HUGE book of data. Those 5 datum lines were used by almost all case makers to determine brass and chamber fit. From that information I developed the Headspace Comparator Tools in order to better determine the correct die set up. These are still a pretty good product by Hornady now. Great reading and lots of issues to ponder.....and it kept me out of the bars.....grin.

 

[Electrodigical]

The "big blue book"? I used to borrow it from the public library all the time. Thought about "losing" it and paying the fine. lol (never could figure out why they'd even have that?) 25+ years later I bought one relatively cheap from RCBS(?) I think I've looked at it once since then. lol

 

[Foggy47]

The "big blue book"? I used to borrow it from the public library all the time. Thought about "losing" it and paying the fine. lol (never could figure out why they'd even have that?) 25+ years later I bought one relatively cheap from RCBS(?) I think I've looked at it once since then. lol

Yep. I met Ken Howell at the Varmint Hunters Jamboree in Pierre SD back in the 90's. He gave me a copy of his new book and signed it for me. Somehow while looking at all the dimensions in that book.....it occurred to me that SAAMI primarily used 5 diameters (datum lines) to develop headspace criteria. Thus....I made 5 common bushing I.D. sizes in order to measure cartridge brass from the datum line....and to set up re-sizing dies. (i.e. a shoulder bump gauge). I have not looked at that book in many years now.

Another thing to notice is that there is no dimension listed for overall-length of any cartridge in that book. SAAMI never made any spec for over-all cartridge length. ( Generally speaking....I think the bullet manufacturers would sometimes set an overall length suggestion to add to their reloading manuals....thus giving their customers a suggested OAL.)

I'm not sure what possessed Ken Howell to put together such a book (??) but it was good as a reference tool. Now.....there are so many new cartriges that you would likely need twice as thick of a book.

 

[West_Fork]

When you say longer do you mean same weight but different caliber? Or just heavier, thus longer, of the same caliber?

Longer, it is the length that matters from my understanding, and length is a function of weight. If I remember correctly, the minimum to stabilize an average rifle bullet is 180,000 rpms??? It's been a while since I visited this subject.

 

[West_Fork]

The "big blue book"? I used to borrow it from the public library all the time. Thought about "losing" it and paying the fine. lol (never could figure out why they'd even have that?) 25+ years later I bought one relatively cheap from RCBS(?) I think I've looked at it once since then. lol

Are you talking about those little blue books that are written for each cartridge, with cartridge dimensions and all the load data from various manufacturers? I cannot remember the name of those, but I still refer to the only one I have, which is the .243w.

 

[Foggy47]

Are you talking about those little blue books that are written for each cartridge, with cartridge dimensions and all the load data from various manufacturers? I cannot remember the name of those, but I still refer to the only one I have, which is the .243w.

No...the book I am talking about is about 2" thick and maybe 10" x 14" high. It has one cartridge drawing and one chamber drawing on each page. I referred to this book quite a bit to ensure the "modified cases" we made would meet the needs of reloaders (neck diameters and some case sizes). They must have done so....as I don't recall we ever had any returned to us.

I would imagine you can get those same drawings on-line today??

 

[Electrodigical]

The "big blue book"?

 

[West_Fork]

No...the book I am talking about is about 2" thick and maybe 10" x 14" high. It has one cartridge drawing and one chamber drawing on each page. I referred to this book quite a bit to ensure the "modified cases" we made would meet the needs of reloaders (neck diameters and some case sizes). They must have done so....as I don't recall we ever had any returned to us.

I would imagine you can get those same drawings on-line today??

Yup, for anything with SAAMI specs all the drawings are on line now, even some of the newer ones.










I cannot recall the name of the blue books I am talking about, but will check later. I think they are great, but pretty sure no one is making them anymore.

Ok, found them. They are slightly changed, but still being produced. I have one that is .243w only, but it looks like they have combined cartridges in to families.

 

[bigboreblr]

more and more places that advertised free load recommendations are pay now.

Some bullet manufacturers like speer and sierra have load recommendations. Hogdon does too.

I dunno about high precision stuff. I think a good 308 can outshoot me. Glad to see them in my binoculars. I hunt uphill from a major highway. Some of the deer I see, if I miss it might end up down in the highway.

Lee dies still come wth load data. Didn't look at the 450 bushmaster yet.

 

[bigboreblr]

IS it worth it to buy seating depth case guages to see how far you are from the lands? Think hornady makes them. Will be doing that for the savage axis in 308. Pretty sure you cant do that with tubular mag lever guns. Old glenfield model 30 could shoot a touch better than it does with factory ammo. 2 inch groups at 100.

 

[West_Fork]

IS it worth it to buy seating depth case guages to see how far you are from the lands? Think hornady makes them. Will be doing that for the savage axis in 308. Pretty sure you cant do that with tubular mag lever guns. Old glenfield model 30 could shoot a touch better than it does with factory ammo. 2 inch groups at 100.

Ask Foggy. i might if I was doing a lot with different guns at the same time and wanted something particular, but I still just do the old seat and check for hard jam when I want to be hard jam or a few thou off, looking at engraving on the bullet. Or,just go off published oal.

 

[Foggy47]

IS it worth it to buy seating depth case guages to see how far you are from the lands? Think hornady makes them. Will be doing that for the savage axis in 308. Pretty sure you cant do that with tubular mag lever guns. Old glenfield model 30 could shoot a touch better than it does with factory ammo. 2 inch groups at 100.

Sure it's worth it....if you want the most accuracy from your firearms. Seating the bullets out near the rifling almost always improves on accuracy. It's one of the easiest things to do....along with keeping the bullets concentric to the brass. Many of the lever guns can use a curved OAL gauge to determine max OAL......but not many lever guns are made for long-range, or precision shooting. Most lever guns are made for minute of deer. grin.

For a hunting rifle at short and medium ranges (say out to 200 yards) a gun that will shoot 1 to 2 inch groups can be OK for deer hunting. After that....things can be a bit iffy. I normally want all the accuracy I can easily attain. Personally, I have a hard time hunting with a gun that does not shoot 1" groups at 100 yards.

^ That is a far cry from when I started serious rifle hunting in my late teens. Then minute of pie plate with an old 30-06 was about the norm.

 

[Foggy47]

Thinking about my reply above....as it regards to lever guns and bullets for them....with a tubular magazine. Those guns generally use bullets with a cannelure in the bullets in order to prevent the bullets from slipping deeper into the case, while contained in the magazine. Also the bullets are normally flat nosed or plastic tips to prevent firing in the magazine during loading or recoil. I suggest you use that cannelure and crimp those case mouths to secure the bullets. Now if you have a lever gun with a clip or a rotary magazine then you have more bullet seeing choices.

Don't give up safety for accuracy. I load an old savage 99 in 308 Win. It has a brass rotary magazine and I can load those bullets to near the rifling. That gun is a real tack driver....even with limited playing around with different components. It's simply a great shooter.

I've got other lever guns in 357 mag, and 44 mag.....and I just load them with the bullet's cannalure determining the seating depth, as they are not long-range hunting guns. They have fair to middling accuracy. Good enough for steel plate shooting.

 

[West_Fork]

This is the blue book I think of when I hear reloading blue book. I love this thing. Even has lines at the bottom of the pages for your own notes. http://www.loadbooks.com/

 

[Wind Gypsy]

I still remember when Midway had a one page flyer with ALL the things they offered on that single page. About the time I started selling them things, they had expanded to a mini catalog of maybe six pages. Pretty humble beginnings.

 

[bigboreblr]

He's more of a Hatteras guy than a tracker.....

I got alot of load development to do with my guns before I blame it on seatng depth.

Going to try and take a year off from buying gun stuff. Reloading setup for every caliber, stuff to load atleast 300 rounds in each, and a schmancy flintlock in the stall too.

 

[Foggy47]

He's more of a Hatteras guy than a tracker.....

I got alot of load development to do with my guns before I blame it on seatng depth.

Going to try and take a year off from buying gun stuff. Reloading setup for every caliber, stuff to load atleast 300 rounds in each, and a schmancy flintlock in the stall too.

Larry is more like Andy Griffith. He's pretty much what you see in his ads.....but with some very deep pockets. He really figured out the internet and computerization early on and applied tech to his whole operation.

I remember when Brownell's got out of reloading components......they told me they could not compete with Larry. They re-entered now again....I think. Not sure how competitive they are.

It's often been said....accuracy is 1/3 the gun / 1/3 the ammo and 1/3 the shooter. Takes all three to milk the best accuracy.