Apples for heavy clay?

[Ikeman]

Alright y’all,
I have a challenge for you Apple guys. I am looking for a few apple or crabapple varieties that will handle the HOT Texas summers, a HEAVY black clay topsoil, with a sometimes VERY shallow white rock layer below it.

My family piece has a bottomland in the middle the slopes down to it, with a small white rock ridge intruding into it. The two listed soil types (if you want specifics) are labeled by the NRCS as
1.) Frioton silty clay loam.
2.) Whitewright-Howe complex 5-12% slopes, eroded.

We locals often just call it “Black Gumbo” because it gets sticky as a gumbo rice when saturated. I have had boots that weigh 10-12lbs apiece after all the clay stuck to the bottom layer after layer. Tires will get so thick a layer that they will fill a wheel-well in the wrong conditions. It is also a problem when it dries out. It turns to concrete and develops HUGE cracks. (I’ve seen a tape measure over 50” down a crack)

Are there any apples that can handle such a hard clay with such carrying conditions?

I would be looking mostly for something that would need as little help as possible after the first year or so, and with realistically zero watering. I assume that puts me more into the Crabapple side of things which is fine.


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[H20fwler]

I would look for any good southern DR varieties, the rootstock is what you need to really pay attention to. M111 is a good choice for heavy clay. I have loamy clay here that turns into concrete by mid summer if we don't get rain.
Apples do not do well if it stays very "wet" a lot of the time, if it is only wet some in spring you should be OK, but will still need to water through the hot dry summers first couple of years for most apples. If like you say you can't really water much at all look at crabs. I've planted a lot of crabs from Whitetail Crab like 30-06, Crossbow, Tenpoint and Droptine that can thrive with very little love, I think some of the Blue Hill crabs are same. Just make sure they are on the right rootstock for heavy clay.
Would also mulch around them good the first year then plant clover thick around them.

 

[Native Hunter]

I agree with H20 on the M111 rootstock. There is an early ripening apple that I grow which originated in Weatherford, Texas. It's now called Summer Champion and was originally named Kincaid and later the name was changed to Holland. Century Farm Orchards has it in stock right now on M111.

In fact, my recommendation is to talk to David at Century Farm. He has great knowledge on apples that will thrive in hot and dry areas of the country. He will likely have most of what you need in stock. I would also talk to Ryan at Blue Hill. He could possibly have some feedback by now on how his Dolgo rootstock is working in soils like yours. He is an outstanding apple resource as well and sells some great varieties. Good luck.

 

[SwampCat]

Alright y’all,
I have a challenge for you Apple guys. I am looking for a few apple or crabapple varieties that will handle the HOT Texas summers, a HEAVY black clay topsoil, with a sometimes VERY shallow white rock layer below it.

My family piece has a bottomland in the middle the slopes down to it, with a small white rock ridge intruding into it. The two listed soil types (if you want specifics) are labeled by the NRCS as
1.) Frioton silty clay loam.
2.) Whitewright-Howe complex 5-12% slopes, eroded.

We locals often just call it “Black Gumbo” because it gets sticky as a gumbo rice when saturated. I have had boots that weigh 10-12lbs apiece after all the clay stuck to the bottom layer after layer. Tires will get so thick a layer that they will fill a wheel-well in the wrong conditions. It is also a problem when it dries out. It turns to concrete and develops HUGE cracks. (I’ve seen a tape measure over 50” down a crack)

Are there any apples that can handle such a hard clay with such carrying conditions?

I would be looking mostly for something that would need as little help as possible after the first year or so, and with realistically zero watering. I assume that puts me more into the Crabapple side of things which is fine.


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I am in SW AR. There is no such thing as a no spray, no water apple tree for my area (that I know of) I had ten yr old apple trees die in last years drought. Also dunstan chestnuts.

 

[Prof.Kent]

Wow, tough conditions. Apple trees are naturally drought resistant, the problem is that means when in drought they just tend to go dormant. And dormant plants and trees are in stress and that attracts insects, and a tree that is not vigorously growing is slowly dying. What you need to protect the clay soil from drying out around the trees is heavy mulch, several inches thick starting at 6 feet in diameter and more as the tree grows. Heavy mulch out to the tree's drip line, minimum. Do not pile the mulch up against the tree or that will attract rodents next to the trunk. Protect the truck with loose wire mesh, when I say mulch, I mean bio-matter, not stone or rubber mats. Wood chips is best. Rotting wood absorbs nitrogen from the soil, so give the tree a shot of urea (46-0-0 fertilizer) every year after the first.
You probably think that is a lot of work but not taking good care of the tree for the first 6 years will probably allow it to suffer or die and then all your time and effort has been wasted. Young trees are like children; they take a lot of care at first to give them the best chance of survival.
I grew an apple orchard on a pure sand hill (the forester called the soil "sandy-sand") so I know a bit about poor soil. Mulch is your friend.

 

[Ikeman]

Wow, tough conditions. Apple trees are naturally drought resistant, the problem is that means when in drought they just tend to go dormant. And dormant plants and trees are in stress and that attracts insects, and a tree that is not vigorously growing is slowly dying. What you need to protect the clay soil from drying out around the trees is heavy mulch, several inches thick starting at 6 feet in diameter and more as the tree grows. Heavy mulch out to the tree's drip line, minimum. Do not pile the mulch up against the tree or that will attract rodents next to the trunk. Protect the truck with loose wire mesh, when I say mulch, I mean bio-matter, not stone or rubber mats. Wood chips is best. Rotting wood absorbs nitrogen from the soil, so give the tree a shot of urea (46-0-0 fertilizer) every year after the first.
You probably think that is a lot of work but not taking good care of the tree for the first 6 years will probably allow it to suffer or die and then all your time and effort has been wasted. Young trees are like children; they take a lot of care at first to give them the best chance of survival.
I grew an apple orchard on a pure sand hill (the forester called the soil "sandy-sand") so I know a bit about poor soil. Mulch is your friend.

I’m not opposed to starting a tree out right, the property is just a long drive from where I live, and any and all equipment has to be driven out with me. That makes routine things like watering and spraying the difficult part.

I could easily have a couple trucks worth of arborist mulch dropped out there for large mulch rings. I am planning on caging any soft mast I plant.


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[Ikeman]

I agree with H20 on the M111 rootstock. There is an early ripening apple that I grow which originated in Weatherford, Texas. It's now called Summer Champion and was originally named Kincaid and later the name was changed to Holland. Century Farm Orchards has it in stock right now on M111.

In fact, my recommendation is to talk to David at Century Farm. He has great knowledge on apples that will thrive in hot and dry areas of the country. He will likely have most of what you need in stock. I would also talk to Ryan at Blue Hill. He could possibly have some feedback by now on how his Dolgo rootstock is working in soils like yours. He is an outstanding apple resource as well and sells some great varieties. Good luck.

That is an excellent resource… i will have to look them up.


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[Native Hunter]

Watering for the first couple of years is the most critical factor. If you are getting decent rains, that’s all you need, but a young tree will likely suffer and die otherwise. I’ve also provided mid day shade before for young trees. It doesn’t have to be anything fancy. Even a garbage bag duct taped to the top of the cage that gives about 2 or 3 hours of relief from the sun can help. I did that on one young tree this year that was struggling, and it now looks just fine. For newly planted trees, I hate to see them go for more than 10 days without a rain or watering in the first year. After that, they are on their own except for possibly some occasional lime and fertilizer as I feel necessary - and that won’t even be yearly.

 

[SwampCat]

My younger apple trees get eaten up by bugs - as in almost defoliated if I dont keep them sprayed. Not nearly as bad on the older trees. But, the older trees have their own problems. Brown spot is my biggest nemesis here. I usually lose over half the crop to brown spot. My advice for apples in south AR or TX would be early maturing apples. I have an AR Black and a Granny Smith - still with a few apples, but not ripe yet. I ran one inch plastic black pipe a quarter of a mile to my trees. I have a four way splitter that I run four regular garden hoses off of. I water four trees at a time. Each of my trees gets 30 minutes running from one hose every week when the rains stop - usually starting early July. I have never planted a fruit tree I was unable to reach with a hose that lived here.

What is your soil pH. That black soil over the top of the white soil sounds like a calcareous soil high in pH. It sounds like some of mine. There is an orchard in TX that sells some peach trees especially for calcareous soil. I cant remember the name of them - but I have a few of their peach trees going great - but not old enough to fruit. They may have some apple trees. I would sure try to see if I could get my trees out of A tx orchard - they might be able to give you some good advice. I think living a long drive from your trees is going to be problematic. Mine have proven to be very high maintenance.

 

[Ikeman]

Ya, I know apples or crabapples will probably be the hardest of species for me to add due to lack of care options. I am also planning on planting some feral, unnamed pears in the coming years that I think will survive much better without pampering.

What do y’all think my chances would be if I dedicated a full cattle panel to each tree, which would make a ring just shy of 5 feet diameter. A thick layer of cardboard as a biodegradable weed barrier, and then several inches of wood mulch. In the summer I could cover the top circle of the ring in shade cloth to help with mid-day temps.

Even watering once a week would require some kind of off-grid automation and storage tanks, as I am over 2,000 feet from the nearest pressurized water source.
I could shorten the piping needs by floating a pump in a very small nearby pond, but I think the cost of buying a solar and battery setup to do that would be similar to buying 2000+ feet of piping and fittings.

Don’t know it all that would be worth it for 10 or so trees.

I am also direct seeding a lot of native soft mast like persimmon, Chickasaw plum, and Mexican plum… but most of them will be early-late summer bearing (with the exception of the persimmon)


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[Native Hunter]

Ya, I know apples or crabapples will probably be the hardest of species for me to add due to lack of care options. I am also planning on planting some feral, unnamed pears in the coming years that I think will survive much better without pampering.

What do y’all think my chances would be if I dedicated a full cattle panel to each tree, which would make a ring just shy of 5 feet diameter. A thick layer of cardboard as a biodegradable weed barrier, and then several inches of wood mulch. In the summer I could cover the top circle of the ring in shade cloth to help with mid-day temps.

Even watering once a week would require some kind of off-grid automation and storage tanks, as I am over 2,000 feet from the nearest pressurized water source.
I could shorten the piping needs by floating a pump in a very small nearby pond, but I think the cost of buying a solar and battery setup to do that would be similar to buying 2000+ feet of piping and fittings.

Don’t know it all that would be worth it for 10 or so trees.

I am also direct seeding a lot of native soft mast like persimmon, Chickasaw plum, and Mexican plum… but most of them will be early-late summer bearing (with the exception of the persimmon)


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If I were you, I would plant the trees in the fall rather than the spring. That would give them more time to get settled in and get some root growth started before they had to face your hot summers. I still think you would likely lose the trees if you went into a prolonged dry time and didn't do some watering. If there are any professional apple orchards in your area, you might get some tips from people who have experienced the exact same conditions that you will experience. Actual experience tops speculation every time. Good luck.

 

[bigboreblr]

Find a local mom-n-pop tree nursery and go with what they suggest. M111 is a good rootstock for heavy clay. However, you may need to make an environment for that tree in your spot. Ammending a large area of soil, lost of mulch. This might be something of a hobby with a handful of trees, not something you can manage alot of in that environment.

Certain varieties need certain amount of chill hours. There is a chemical in the tree that wears out of the tree over time in the winter. When the chemical is low enough, the tree knows it's time flowerfor the year. Texas would have next to no chill hours. There are a handful of varieties that would work well. Willis is in georgia. They don't have the best reputaation, but I did order from them. Got several seedling apples trees / crabapples and a granny smith on M111. I'm in usda zone 5B with a blip of zone 6. They say zones 9-6. I may not have enough season to make good enough fruit on it.

There is better trees for deer in your area than apple trees. But, with work you can probably have a coupl of apples.

 

[bigboreblr]

Was reading the cummins nursery tree descriptions of the varieties I had today. Notcie Black Arkansas is recommended for hot areas. Cummins has a tree search by atrribute and zone. Zone 8 has alot of trees, zone 9 not many. They have hot climate as an attribute.

Far as rootstocks go, pretty much they all say they're great for everything....... But M111 is commonly called drought resistant. I would find out whether antonovka, dolgo, or domestic apple rootstock wold treat you better.

Etter is a person in the 1920's or so that developed trees in california. His varieties might be somewhat helpful. Wickson might be a good choice. Hewe's Virginia crabapple. Granny smith is from australia and many places say zone 9.

Turkey Creek in Kansas has several of those varieties in M111. Century Farm Orchards in North Carolina is touted as a hot climate tree.

There is a scion exchange here in the winter. In your climate, I would plant the tree in rootmaker pot if your grafting. Getting the graft to live on a bad drought in the wild would be difficult. If you cant water it weekly where it will live, I would definitely pot it first.

Southern tree planters who post on here have said pears are better tolerated down south than apples.

IF you have a backhoe or a posthole digger, I would use it to loosen and amend the soil Drill a central hole and 3 around it. Get those roots in there. Or atleast take a metal rod and pound holes down for tap roots.

 

[SwampCat]

I have a ten yr ar black that made it through through the heat and drought this year. Of ten different varieties, two ar black lost all their leaves or almost all their leaves. Not sure if dead or alive. No other tree variety suffered as much