Any of you guys with timber sold carbon credits yet?

I agree. I don't mind a little solar and wind in places that make sense or if in an area where everyone loves it and realizes it's downfalls, but I'll be honest that I don't want it on me. We're fighting two wind companies trying to set up shop here. The land they're getting locked up actually overlaps. My dad and I have been trying to get these idiots to fly a kite for over two years. A salesman from TX flew back here last weekend and was pounding on our doors on both Saturday and Sunday! No means no. We have some good opposition, but going to need help from the county, who has already permitted every wind farm that's applied.
Counties will sell their very souls to the Russians if there was a nickel in it for them. I’ve hardly ever seen them turn down anything substantial…and I’m a builder who has to deal with them all the time. They will ruin a place for the rest of time if it brings them some gain.
 
Maybe I can provide a little more context than a he said, she said on how these carbon marketplaces work. The ones that I am most familiar with are soil carbon credits, even though I and a brother have properties enrolled with NCX (more on that in a bit). I did my PhD research on soil carbon sequestration and used carbon modeling to better understand management practices that affect soil carbon changes over time. In my current job, my company partnered with a carbon exchange on enrolling farmers into a program that pays them based on changes in management practices that are affecting soil carbon changes. The company I am working with is Indigo Ag and they are the largest and most accurate from the exchanges I have looked at. Again, I can only speak to soil carbon. Indigo works by creating registries for companies to purchase the carbon credits that farmers are selling through Indigo. Companies and investment groups are purchasing these credits for a multitude of reasons, but the two main ones are for off-setting their own emissions because they think it is important and/or they are doing it for good PR. There is currently zero government support for these carbon credits, and this was true before and after Biden took over. There is an overwhelming demand for carbon credits that is fueled entirely by the private sector (at least here in the US). When the Biden administration said that they would not include carbon credits in the infrastructure bill or in the farm bill, there was no effect on the price of carbon credits, because there is currently much higher demand than supply. The true market value for a soil carbon credit is somewhere around $27/credit. This is expected to at least double or even triple based on current demands and the rate of increase in farmer enrollment (supply).

Now as far as accuracy is concerned, this is where I can speak with a little more authority. Within the soil carbon credit space, the quality of the registries determines consumer confidence in the system that is currently entirely motivated by a carrot and not the stick. In other words, companies that are purchasing carbon credits are demanding to see the models that are verifying that they carbon credits they are purchasing are in fact carbon off-sets. Indigo currently verifies through soil testing the amount of carbon sequestered in about 60% of the farms enrolled. It is just about impossible and cost prohibitive to measure soil carbon changes on every farm. I am not sure how intensive NCX is using direct measurements in the field to verify their models, but I can say that mine and my brothers and several others on this forum have had their properties sampled, so they are at least doing some due diligence. How much is done is probably a function of cost of the on-site analysis and the demand from NCX's customers. I honestly don't know the first thing about forestry carbon credits, but I can say that at least some soil carbon credit exchanges are very solid and at least rooted in the most up-to-date science when selling carbon credits.
 
Maybe I can provide a little more context than a he said, she said on how these carbon marketplaces work. The ones that I am most familiar with are soil carbon credits, even though I and a brother have properties enrolled with NCX (more on that in a bit). I did my PhD research on soil carbon sequestration and used carbon modeling to better understand management practices that affect soil carbon changes over time. In my current job, my company partnered with a carbon exchange on enrolling farmers into a program that pays them based on changes in management practices that are affecting soil carbon changes. The company I am working with is Indigo Ag and they are the largest and most accurate from the exchanges I have looked at. Again, I can only speak to soil carbon. Indigo works by creating registries for companies to purchase the carbon credits that farmers are selling through Indigo. Companies and investment groups are purchasing these credits for a multitude of reasons, but the two main ones are for off-setting their own emissions because they think it is important and/or they are doing it for good PR. There is currently zero government support for these carbon credits, and this was true before and after Biden took over. There is an overwhelming demand for carbon credits that is fueled entirely by the private sector (at least here in the US). When the Biden administration said that they would not include carbon credits in the infrastructure bill or in the farm bill, there was no effect on the price of carbon credits, because there is currently much higher demand than supply. The true market value for a soil carbon credit is somewhere around $27/credit. This is expected to at least double or even triple based on current demands and the rate of increase in farmer enrollment (supply).

Now as far as accuracy is concerned, this is where I can speak with a little more authority. Within the soil carbon credit space, the quality of the registries determines consumer confidence in the system that is currently entirely motivated by a carrot and not the stick. In other words, companies that are purchasing carbon credits are demanding to see the models that are verifying that they carbon credits they are purchasing are in fact carbon off-sets. Indigo currently verifies through soil testing the amount of carbon sequestered in about 60% of the farms enrolled. It is just about impossible and cost prohibitive to measure soil carbon changes on every farm. I am not sure how intensive NCX is using direct measurements in the field to verify their models, but I can say that mine and my brothers and several others on this forum have had their properties sampled, so they are at least doing some due diligence. How much is done is probably a function of cost of the on-site analysis and the demand from NCX's customers. I honestly don't know the first thing about forestry carbon credits, but I can say that at least some soil carbon credit exchanges are very solid and at least rooted in the most up-to-date science when selling carbon credits.
You’re making me want to buy some timberland REITs with my play money!
 
I don’t see it the same. Im pretty sure it doesn’t say I can only enroll if I intend on cutting this cycle. I bet I could call them and say I don’t plan on cutting for 10 years, will you accept my property and they would say sure.
Apparently the answer was in their contract after all. They emailed me some FAQs today and I saw this.

Seller agrees to give good faith consideration to solicitations for timber harvest on Seller’s property, up to the Maximum Harvest Deferral quantity in amount, and arranged by NCX and its affiliates. For avoidance of doubt, the intention of this provision is to ensure that the Seller only offers Deferral Credits in connection with timber that the Seller would otherwise actually consider harvesting during the Performance Period.

So if you wouldn’t entertain a harvest solicitation, signing our contract is a false representation and we would void your enrollment.
 
Apparently the answer was in their contract after all. They emailed me some FAQs today and I saw this.

Seller agrees to give good faith consideration to solicitations for timber harvest on Seller’s property, up to the Maximum Harvest Deferral quantity in amount, and arranged by NCX and its affiliates. For avoidance of doubt, the intention of this provision is to ensure that the Seller only offers Deferral Credits in connection with timber that the Seller would otherwise actually consider harvesting during the Performance Period.

So if you wouldn’t entertain a harvest solicitation, signing our contract is a false representation and we would void your enrollment.
Gotcha. Well I would entertain damn near anything so I guess I am good!
 
Apparently the answer was in their contract after all. They emailed me some FAQs today and I saw this.

Seller agrees to give good faith consideration to solicitations for timber harvest on Seller’s property, up to the Maximum Harvest Deferral quantity in amount, and arranged by NCX and its affiliates. For avoidance of doubt, the intention of this provision is to ensure that the Seller only offers Deferral Credits in connection with timber that the Seller would otherwise actually consider harvesting during the Performance Period.

So if you wouldn’t entertain a harvest solicitation, signing our contract is a false representation and we would void your enrollment.

That is almost unenforceable isn't it? If one decides that they would harvest x amount of timber if the price is high enough to more than offset any benefit of waiting to harvest, it would be a good faith consideration. There are too many "what if" including future prices of timber for this to have much meaning...Or I don't completely understand it....

Thanks,

Jack
 
That is almost unenforceable isn't it? If one decides that they would harvest x amount of timber if the price is high enough to more than offset any benefit of waiting to harvest, it would be a good faith consideration. There are too many "what if" including future prices of timber for this to have much meaning...Or I don't completely understand it....

Thanks,

Jack
I'm about certain that they had in their literature before we signed up something that said that you would get paid regardless if you intended to harvest your timber or not.

I am sure this is in place to instill confidence in the people purchasing the harvest deferral credits. Essentially trying to increase the value of the credit by saying "look how much carbon you purchased".
 
I'm about certain that they had in their literature before we signed up something that said that you would get paid regardless if you intended to harvest your timber or not.

I am sure this is in place to instill confidence in the people purchasing the harvest deferral credits. Essentially trying to increase the value of the credit by saying "look how much carbon you purchased".
I wouldn't doubt that in the least.
 
I'm about certain that they had in their literature before we signed up something that said that you would get paid regardless if you intended to harvest your timber or not.

I am sure this is in place to instill confidence in the people purchasing the harvest deferral credits. Essentially trying to increase the value of the credit by saying "look how much carbon you purchased".
Interesting. Do you mean a direct contradiction to what I posted?

I can tell my point of view is unpopular. I am sorry to ruffle feathers. That's not my intent.

Look, I'm not here to tell you the science behind carbon credits is air tight. There are lots of things we could learn, prove, discover that would illegitimize this program, its premise, its bases. Some have been brought up in this thread: what if it's someday proven it has no impact on climate change or atmospheric carbon; what if harvesting timber has no deleterious affect on that piece of geography's carbon sequestration capability in the first place; etc. All valid questions. Another way to illegitimize it is to find that buyers of these deferrals are really paying to defer something that was never going to happen in the first place. That will kill it.
 
Interesting. Do you mean a direct contradiction to what I posted?

I can tell my point of view is unpopular. I am sorry to ruffle feathers. That's not my intent.

Look, I'm not here to tell you the science behind carbon credits is air tight. There are lots of things we could learn, prove, discover that would illegitimize this program, its premise, its bases. Some have been brought up in this thread: what if it's someday proven it has no impact on climate change or atmospheric carbon; what if harvesting timber has no deleterious affect on that piece of geography's carbon sequestration capability in the first place; etc. All valid questions. Another way to illegitimize it is to find that buyers of these deferrals are really paying to defer something that was never going to happen in the first place. That will kill it.
I don't think your POV is unpopular. I tend to agree, folks who have trees they will never harvest under any circumstances don't belong in the program. From my perspective (we have a pine farm), while we always plan to harvest trees at some point, there are so many factors that go into a timber sale decision that it would be virtually impossible for the clause you listed to disqualify us.

Thanks,

Jack
 
I don't think your POV is unpopular. I tend to agree, folks who have trees they will never harvest under any circumstances don't belong in the program. From my perspective (we have a pine farm), while we always plan to harvest trees at some point, there are so many factors that go into a timber sale decision that it would be virtually impossible for the clause you listed to disqualify us.

Thanks,

Jack
You may be the prototypical client for the NCX project! It’s meant for situations like that.
 
You may be the prototypical client for the NCX project! It’s meant for situations like that.

We just signed a timber sale contract at the beginning of the year. They have 2 years to harvest (mostly thinning). After the harvest we will consider an NCX type contract.
 
Like I said, I work very closely with Indigo and my background is in soil carbon research. Of the companies out there, they are the most legit in terms of what they buy and sell. Hopefully the rest of the industry follows their model. They have had their own failures already and have no doubt learned from them.
 
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