Antler obsession

[BJE80]

Kind of a tangent from the P&Y QDMA thread but I felt it deserved its own so I didn't hijack. And this will be a bit of a ramble so I apologize for that.

I know most on here will probably say they care more about age class than antler size, and I feel that is great. But does anyone else find it nauseating the amount of antler obsession these days. I am to the point now I just find that I'm trying to disassociated myself with the obsession crowd that counts inches and scores like that is the only thing that matters anymore. This may be a controversial topic and ruffle some feathers but do you think this antler obsession is ruining hunting for hunters that hunt public or small tracts of land that don't have much for big bucks around. How can a guy hunting public or low quality private land feel like an accomplished hunter and proud when shooting a 1.5 or 2.5 year old buck in this antler obsession environment? I feel sorry for the kids and even public land hunters that shoot a fork or 2.5 year old and get the looks or comments.

Have you ever noticed the biggest smiles you usually see in hunting are the people that are just happy to see or shoot a deer and don't care what it is?
Disclaimer: That doesn't mean holding out for large bucks or an age class is wrong from a personal standpoint. I'm talking about that attitude being pushed so hard these days that it has overflowed to an expectation of all hunters whether you can realistically meet those lofty goals or not.

 

[wiscwhip]

How can a guy hunting public or low quality private land feel like an accomplished hunter and proud when shooting a 1.5 or 2.5 year old buck in this antler obsession environment?.

By not giving 2 craps about what anyone else thinks about your harvest choices. I try/tried to target 3.5+ year old deer on public ground, or at least I used to 4 or 5 years ago, not so much any more since the days of unlimited antlerless tags has put such a huge dent in the numbers where I hunt, I would most likely shoot the first legal buck that walked by if given the chance, at least for the foreseeable future until the herd numbers and thus the buck numbers turn around, it's better than shooting a doe from a numbers standpoint.

 

[Brush Creek]

My brother and I are running into that with our kids to a degree. We haven't shot a 1.5 or 2.5 year old deer since before our kids started hunting and we have shot quite a few nice bucks. Now the kids don't want to shoot or don't think as much of their small bucks even though we are all for them shooting anything they want.

 

[BJE80]

By not giving 2 craps about what anyone else thinks about your harvest choices.

Easier said than done for most people. You get it. Most people don't from my experience.

 

[BJE80]

I actually hope my sons don't shoot a big buck their first few years. I want them to appricate all deer. Small, big, young and old.

 

[wiscwhip]

Easier said than done for most people. You get it. Most people don't from my experience.

Not really, but that is a huge part of the problem now days. Too many people let other folks' opinions drive their personal day to day lives. Tell them to get bent, don't let their BS bother you, do what you want(as long as it doesn't harm anyone else), and move on. This whole PC garbage is half the problem in this country, "oooohhhh don't say blahblahblah, someone might get offended". Too bad for them, if the truth fits, wear it!

A guy doesn't have to be an a$$ about it, but he shouldn't have to beat around the bush and tippy toe around everything either.

 

[Greta&Gus]

Easier said than done for most people. You get it. Most people don't from my experience.

I agree, it is way easier said than done. I had countless people say to me this year 'What!?! You didn't shoot a deer!?! I thought you always got one.'. It is tiring to explain the herd dynamics and how it can be difficult to continually harvest a buck. Many people see a picture in the newspaper of a nice buck and assume that is everyone.

The problem arises when you put a ton of energy into deer and deer hunting and have little to show for it at the end of the season. My harvest standards are probably a lot lower than most on this site but that doesn't mean I don't like to be rewarded for putting working hard. If you are a goal oriented person like myself a 'buck' of a certain size is an excellent standard to work for. Consider self-imposed pressure and not peer pressure, but I enjoy being successful and in life, that means shooting a buck. Plain and simple.

I also think that many people who hunt in 'great' deer country don't understand what it is like in 'good' or 'moderate' deer country. I know a guy who hunts Trempealeau county Wi and they have 3 or 4 times as many deer as I do. Bucks seem to be a dime a dozen at times when he shows me pictures. I always thought he considered that 'normal' for hunters by the way he talked. He finally admitted he would never hunt northern Wi because he would not get the same quality of hunting even though it is cheaper and closer to his house.

 

[shawnv]

I know a guy who hunts Trempealeau county Wi and they have 3 or 4 times as many deer as I do. Bucks seem to be a dime a dozen at times when he shows me pictures. I always thought he considered that 'normal' for hunters by the way he talked. He finally admitted he would never hunt northern Wi because he would not get the same quality of hunting even though it is cheaper and closer to his house.

Even there not all land is created equal, 2014 alright but 2013 was terrible where I hunted in Trempealeau County. There are pockets in that county that are poor and have few deer to places thathave them running all over. The further South you go in the county, the more deer you will have.

 

[BJE80]

Imo the antler obsession has ruined the next generation. In the 60s-70s we all learned how to hunt with a bbgun or .22 in the neighbors woods which is now a leased sanctuary for da turdy pointer. The internet and 24/7/365 cable hunting shows have made this exponentially worse. Set your own goals and be happy for anyother hunters choice. Life is to short besides deer camp was alot more fun prior to the book buck focus.

Wish I could “like” this twice. Give this man a standing ovation.

 

[scott44]

My goals have changed since starting habitat improvement, back then all we were seeing is 1.5/2.5 yr olds now 3.5 and an occasional 4.5 is the norm so we have achieved that. Also I think I had the dreams of 150" buck every year and realistically that's not going to happen so our goals have changed, we target the most mature buck on our property and anterlers don't come into play. Would I like to see 150-160" sure but it isn't the prime reason anymore and it seems my hunting has got better because of this, I got caught up in all the hype of inches of antler and the fun left hunting. To me the habitat work is half the fun of hunting now.

 

[Satchmo]

My goals have changed since starting habitat improvement.

Mine too Scott. I enjoy "messing with" the bears on bait sites with cams on them as much as hunting them. I like watching my plots grow into something I am proud of. It's incredibly rewarding to see the deer using areas that I "built". At the end of the day, I think I will always be prouder of the habitat I am creating than any deer I will shoot there.

 

[Steve Bartylla]

I'm torn on this, as I believe that antler obsession, when controlled to a healthy level, has been a God send in many ways to a certain % of hunters. It gives some something higher to push for, increasing the challenge yet another notch. Let's face it. How much fun do your kids (or you for the few gamers we may have here) have when they beat the video game every time? How about when they beat it most every time? How about when it's closer to 50/50? At least to a point, the higher the failure rate the more satisfaction one receives when they do win. for example, look at NoFo. How much fun would he have each hunting season if he just shot the first legal buck he saw? On most of the ground I manage, I'd be done opening day each year. Heck, even on public grounds, I'd be done opening week of bow hunting more years than not. That wouldn't be much fun for me.

On the flip side, some are so tied up in antlers that it sucks the fun out of hunting for them. Even when they kill something they want, it seems to be more of a relief than happiness (I know a lot of TV hunters that fall into that description and a handful mainstream hunters).

Now, add on that the kids and those that don't hunt ground that's even capable of regularly producing large racks, but have been led to believe they can and even should be killing slobs. I had the owner of a large archery company that you all know of be embarrassed to show me a pic of a 140"+ 3.5 yr old 10 he shot. When I finally convinced him to show me, he started making all these excuses for how/why he killed it....a flipping 140"+ buck and he's legitimately embarrassed!!!!!!!! We had a long talk about that. Luckily for me (as I have a paid pro staff position with him), he took it the way it was intended.

sooooooooooooo much of killing slob antlered bucks is where you hunt. Frankly, that's somewhere between 10-10000 times more important than how good of a hunter you are, depending on the region you hunt. IMO, that's where the antler obsession has went the most wrong. Pitifully few that kill slobs are willing to admit that, as it makes them look soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much better to pretend it is their superior hunting skill that is responsible for why they kill the mack daddies and not the ground they hunt.

All of the very best hunters I know have never killed a buck over 140", many have never killed a P&Y. I promise, there isn't a hunter on this forum that wouldn't kill a 140"+ on some of the ground I manage, if they could spend the season hunting it, and you would do it every season. On the flip side, some of the private and public grounds I hunt, I'd be lucky to kill a 140"+ once every 10 years or so. I've shot 2 over 140" on the various public grounds I hunt in WI in a couple years shy of 40 years hunting WI public grounds (I'm saying once every 10 yrs, just because I believe I'm a significantly better hunter than I was those first 20ish years). There are many other places where killing 1 120"+ would literally be a buck of a lifetime.

Using rack size to judge a hunter's skill is completely meaningless, without knowing a ton about where and how they hunt. Unfortunately, many don't realize that and believe they are failing, when they are often way more skilled than those dropping the slobs.

 

[scott44]

^^^ Well put Steve ^^^

 

[sandbur]

I'm with BJ and November Forever.

I have been through the antler obsession thing and it was not good for me or my enjoyment of hunting. My wife straightened me out on that.

People go through different phases in life and have different goals. I can accept that. I do dislike mandatory restrictions that affect hunter choice without a biological reason for the restriction. Yup, I am talking about APR's.

What I do dislike is someone shooting a deer and then making excuses about shooting it. If you are not happy withthe deer do not shoot it. In most of the upper midwest we do not needs excuses about culling.

Shoot it and be happy with it or don't shoot it.

When I say I shoot yearling bucks because I like to eat them, it is not an excuse.It is true. I prefer eating them over older bucks.

 

[Steve Bartylla]

Art, start shooting nubbins...They eat even better and, unless you shoot mom, odds are they'll leave the next yr anyway. It may not be "cool," but I shoot nubbins for the freezer more years than not.

IMO, perhaps the most arrogant, despicable thing anyone can do is lecture others for shooting anything they legally can. The exception is when those people are hunting ground that is being managed and they know the rules before hunting there. A massive pet peeve of mine is when these spoiled yokels start lecturing those with limited time or limited quality hunting grounds on how they shouldn't shoot this buck, because you're shooting tomorrow's trophies. One of my favorite all time shirts is one that double bull gave me that reads, "shooting the trophies of tomorrow today," or something to that extent. Very, VERY few of those that lecture others on what they should and shouldn't shoot are hunting public or even just average quality ground. It just bugs me....and so does shooting deer one is not happy with. If it's not going to make you happy, don't shoot it and give BS reasons to try to justify it. I shoot all sorts of management bucks. Sure, I'd often rather shoot a gager, but that doesn't mean I'm not happy I shot the buck I did. I feel good about it, as I legally and ethically killed a buck I believe needed to die, and got brownie points from my client for doing so.

What kills me is when the TV people are hunting with outfitters and say they shot it because it was a "cull buck." Sorry, but the odds of a cow crashing through the roof right now and landing in my home office are better than that being the reason...Thankfully, after a several second pause, I don't see any cows in my office.

 

[phil@thesidehill]

Using rack size to judge a hunter's skill is completely meaningless, without knowing a ton about where and how they hunt. Unfortunately, many don't realize that and believe they are failing, when they are often way more skilled than those dropping the slobs.

that is the truth! I know far more average to less than average (for whatever reason, the point is that they don't spend alot of time or thought on deer hunting, they literally just grabbed a rilfe and walked into the woods) skill level deer hunters that have SLAMMERS on their walls than do guys i know like most of us that put in serious effort and thought.

i think that there is also the "luck" element of right place right time for killing GIANT deer. Thats why the saying goes, i'd rather be lucky than good.

When i first got back into hunting deer from a hiatus when i was in the later years of high school and college, i jumped right back in at a time when the horn porn was starting to become grossly exaggerated. I started down the path of big antlered deer. I was fortunate to be living and hunting in an area where there were lots of BIG bucks. I pulled the trigger on a small 8 point my first season seriously bow hunting. In NY State you kill two bucks a year. I felt like i shot that buck to get a monkey off my back. After that buck i actually passed up several bucks that were bigger and that given the opportunity as of today would have still been the biggest buck i have shot....all of this because i was more concerned about what the bucks would score and i knew there were bigger bucks around.

Then i moved back to PA and i had to face the reality of what this area can produce. Initially i then focused on age, instead of antler size. while i still try to target 3.5 yr old and older, i am more prone to make a "game time decision" when a hunt just comes together. The buck i shot this year turned out to be a 2.5 yr old....and i dont really care....it was an awesome hunt and i only had 3 days of archery season left to hunt. I only bow hunt my property, so when this buck came through my hinge cut corner trail to chase a doe like he read the script it only felt right to take that shot. A much larger buck had just gone charging into a bedding area on my neighbors about 5 mins before i shot my buck....but i was going to wait to find out if he was gonna end up coming my way.

 

[Kansas-andres]

I rarely hunt hard anymore, I just can't get myself into that mind set anymore. Hunted hard from 18 - 30 years old and put enormous pressure on myself. Glad those days are behind me. The last five years I have been more focused on cameras, plots, habitat improvement, tree planting, spending time with Dad and brother.

My Girlfriend's 12 year old daughter is doing her first youth season rifle hunt with me this year. I first noticed her interest when she started asking if we could shoot my crossbow. I bought her a camo jacket for Christmas and she said: does this mean I get to go hunting ? I was both surprised and excited.

My passion for the outdoors is now stronger then ever.....

 

[sandbur]

Art, start shooting nubbins...They eat even better and, unless you shoot mom, odds are they'll leave the next yr anyway. It may not be "cool," but I shoot nubbins for the freezer more years than not.

IMO, perhaps the most arrogant, despicable thing anyone can do is lecture others for shooting anything they legally can. The exception is when those people are hunting ground that is being managed and they know the rules before hunting there. A massive pet peeve of mine is when these spoiled yokels start lecturing those with limited time or limited quality hunting grounds on how they shouldn't shoot this buck, because you're shooting tomorrow's trophies. One of my favorite all time shirts is one that double bull gave me that reads, "shooting the trophies of tomorrow today," or something to that extent. Very, VERY few of those that lecture others on what they should and shouldn't shoot are hunting public or even just average quality ground. It just bugs me....and so does shooting deer one is not happy with. If it's not going to make you happy, don't shoot it and give BS reasons to try to justify it. I shoot all sorts of management bucks. Sure, I'd often rather shoot a gager, but that doesn't mean I'm not happy I shot the buck I did. I feel good about it, as I legally and ethically killed a buck I believe needed to die, and got brownie points from my client for doing so.

What kills me is when the TV people are hunting with outfitters and say they shot it because it was a "cull buck." Sorry, but the odds of a cow crashing through the roof right now and landing in my home office are better than that being the reason...Thankfully, after a several second pause, I don't see any cows in my office.

My daughters both shot nubbins in zone 1 during the 2013 season. They had permission to hunt some land with plenty of deer. We love fawn steak on the grill. One of the guys hunting with us was from Missouri, and he said the high point of his season was watching the girls shoot those deer.

 

[sandbur]

When they get expanded in MN it'll have zero to do with growing "big" bucks. Given our area manager, I get a little nervous about Early Antlerless, EAB, and APRs

I get nervous about anything he does.

One story from a stakeholder team member from 2007 or 2008 went along the lines ....DNR wanted APR's in our area, the hunters said NO, and he said I'm cutting your numbers by 20%. End of discussion.

Guess who just opened an area west of Camp Ripley to rifle hunting since the deer were not allowing oak regrowth? True or not, I have not seen the property, but it reflects the attitude of our manager.

 

[j-bird]

Antlers sell - it's that simple. The thing is when we started putting more value on antlers than the deer itself we started down this path. I sill only speak for myself, but it was the pursuit of larger antlers that led me to habitat work. I guess the thing is - just how far are you willing to go and to what extreme?