Aging Bucks - Stained bands on forehead

[Howboutthemdawgs]

Dr “Deer” is a big high fence deer breeder advocate. Not discounting his research, but not a fan.

 

[BenA]

For anyone wanting to know who Dr. Kroll is (I can't believe there are deer nuts who don't), here's a good article about him, his life, and his findings on deer habitat and management. https://www.northamericanwhitetail.com/editorial/career-of-habitat-discovery/471971#replay

 

[bwoods11]

I think he has a VERY impressive resume … but I’m not sure on this one .. . One of the best guys at aging whitetails is Skip Sligh (Iowa Whitetail) . Not a doctor , just an insanely serious hunter that has a lot of big farms and shoots bucks much bigger than Kroll.

I’m going to bounce this off him. Thanks for posting, it gets a guy thinking !

I know Skip is on HT on occasion.

 

[BenA]

I think he has a VERY impressive resume … but I’m not sure on this one .. . One of the best guys at aging whitetails is Skip Sligh (Iowa Whitetail) . Not a doctor , just an insanely serious hunter that has a lot of big farms and shoots bucks much bigger than Kroll.

I’m going to bounce this off him. Thanks for posting, it gets a guy thinking !

I know Skip is on HT on occasion.

I'm not sold on it either. That's why I asked what others have seen. It just seems that someone like Dr. Kroll who has probably aged more whitetail bucks from everywhere they exist than just about anyone, would not come out with something like that if he hasn't disproven it. He's really big on taking something and trying to disprove it.

 

[Hoytvectrix]

Does someone have a link to the original post from Dr. Kroll? Google is not turning anything up for me.

I don't care about credentials as long as someone actually has good data. The problem with people like Skip or Winke, is that they may be good for what they have seen personally, but it is still a limited sample size or sampled from a specific area. The best way we know or learn anything is from actual science. I'm curious if this is staining is as tested as Dr. Kroll makes it out to be.

 

[BenA]

Does someone have a link to the original post from Dr. Kroll? Google is not turning anything up for me.

I don't care about credentials as long as someone actually has good data. The problem with people like Skip or Winke, is that they may be good for what they have seen personally, but it is still a limited sample size or sampled from a specific area. The best way we know or learn anything is from actual science. I'm curious if this is staining is as tested as Dr. Kroll makes it out to be.

He posts on FB here: https://www.facebook.com/share/1AjNGHvCEf/

He does have a book on it, but I don’t know if he has that info in the latest revisions.

 

[hillrunner]

He posts on FB here: https://www.facebook.com/share/1AjNGHvCEf/

He does have a book on it, but I don’t know if he has that info in the latest revisions.

Is the info anywhere else other than Facebook? I wouldn't open an account on there at gunpoint .
I was looking at some old harvest photos today. I have a couple of bucks who were confirmed to be 3 years old with cementum aging with some pretty darn dark foreheads.
I would like to hear his explanation of why a 3 yr old cannot have the dark forehead and a 4 yr old can. It would have to be physiological, there sure isn't any part of the rut a 3 yo won't take part in behavioral wise.

 

[BenA]

Is the info anywhere else other than Facebook? I wouldn't open an account on there at gunpoint .
I was looking at some old harvest photos today. I have a couple of bucks who were confirmed to be 3 years old with cementum aging with some pretty darn dark foreheads.
I would like to hear his explanation of why a 3 yr old cannot have the dark forehead and a 4 yr old can. It would have to be physiological, there sure isn't any part of the rut a 3 yo won't take part in behavioral wise.

I can't find anything, but I did message him yesterday with that same exact question. I'll post back if he responds.

Curious to know the age structure where those bucks were. Were they in an area with a good amount of older bucks, or were 3.5 bucks some of the older ages there? I did see somewhere that in the absence of older bucks, bucks could mature faster physiologically. And, the early maturity could be at the detriment to antler growth. I'll have to find where I saw that, but it was in scientific literature. That could lead to the whole thing being relative to the age structure of the area bucks.

 

[Brian662]

Why does he assume that 7 year olds (or 8 and 9) don't participate in the rut because they're grandpa's? They most certainly still participate in the rut and breeding does.

 

[hillrunner]

I can't find anything, but I did message him yesterday with that same exact question. I'll post back if he responds.

Curious to know the age structure where those bucks were. Were they in an area with a good amount of older bucks, or were 3.5 bucks some of the older ages there? I did see somewhere that in the absence of older bucks, bucks could mature faster physiologically. And, the early maturity could be at the detriment to antler growth. I'll have to find where I saw that, but it was in scientific literature. That could lead to the whole thing being relative to the age structure of the area bucks.

Why does he assume that 7 year olds (or 8 and 9) don't participate in the rut because they're grandpa's? They most certainly still participate in the rut and breeding does.

Yeah, I've killed 7 and 8 year old bucks that were absolutely participating in the rut.

 

[hillrunner]

I can't find anything, but I did message him yesterday with that same exact question. I'll post back if he responds.

Curious to know the age structure where those bucks were. Were they in an area with a good amount of older bucks, or were 3.5 bucks some of the older ages there? I did see somewhere that in the absence of older bucks, bucks could mature faster physiologically. And, the early maturity could be at the detriment to antler growth. I'll have to find where I saw that, but it was in scientific literature. That could lead to the whole thing being relative to the age structure of the area bucks.

Thanks!
The bucks I mentioned were in areas with older deer. They were sporting exceptional racks, thus the "whoopsy" harvests. I've become more careful since those days.

 

[Brian662]

I just looked at images of the 6 year old bucks I've killed and they all had dark brown marks on their foreheads in some form or fashion. Those kills ranged from mid October to early December.

 

[BenA]

This study is just to lend credence to the theory that mature bucks show greater activity of forehead glands than younger bucks. It is not to say activity isn't there in younger bucks, especially in the absence of older age classes.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

I actually had the initial thought that I wonder if there’s not some tanin or something in tree that takes a number of years of rubbing to stain the hair on the forehead. I thought it was a longshot but I wonder if there isn’t some correlation

 

[BenA]

Here's a study where they looked at staining in forehead glands.

 

[BenA]

And, this study looked at the secretions found. Interesting to note that only one compound in particular was higher in dominant bucks.

 

[KY wild]

My first thought was BS, I don't buy it but think about this which could make it plausible. Human males start getting hairs on their armpits between 10 and 14 years old due to chemical changes in the body which is about a 5 years span but humans live to be 80. On the other hand if whitetail deer has a life span of 10 years then it is plausible that a chemical change would take place in a more narrow window like from the age of 4 or 5 for example. Which means a change could occur in a certain age. Just my random thoughts

 

[Ben.MN/WI]

I have no doubt that older bucks are likely to have that marking, but I agree it seems unlikely that it is a clear cut off at 4.5.

I'll also say that unless the deer is captive or has some type of physical feature that was identifiable from birth, it is really hard to definitively determine the actual age of a buck anyway. We've sent in a lot of teeth for CA aging and it confirmed that it is a lot harder to judge deer age than we always thought.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

I have no doubt that older bucks are likely to have that marking, but I agree it seems unlikely that it is a clear cut off at 4.5.

I'll also say that unless the deer is captive or has some type of physical feature that was identifiable from birth, it is really hard to definitively determine the actual age of a buck anyway. We've sent in a lot of teeth for CA aging and it confirmed that it is a lot harder to judge deer age than we always thought.

And then to further muddy the water…CA isn’t the gospel either. They are wrong on known aged deer, same deer different sides of the jawbone, etc.

 

[Tree Spud]

I checked the five 4.5 to 5.5 year old bucks I have, all taken during the rut. Only 1 exhibited a small amount of this trait. I see more brow coloring based on trees rubbed. In N. Alberta, darker because of black spruce and around here more rusty due to Tamarack, birch, & aspen.