Winter Rye Questions?
- Thread starter Warner32
- Start date
Fall's Legend
5 year old buck +
I also like rye, and my deer do as well:) Planted 2 weeks ago and we have had a really wet period and it has all emerged. Seems to help build the soil also. I do the Lickcreek brassica/cereal grain rotation, but also add some soybeans in with the cereal grains. They do not last long before the first frost, but it seems to make the plot more attractive planting them this late as most other beans are getting ready to start turning soon. For my brassica portion, I plant it with half rate soybeans in May, and use round-Up (generic) before broadcasting brassica mixtures into the beans in July. Hope that helps.
For me in Minnesota and wi, soybeans are best for late fall and winter attraction followed by corn. Brassicas are next and winter rye is lightly used. I use rye to attempt to build up sandy soil, but if I want to shoot and feed deer, soybeans are by far the best. I will say that rye greens up the first in early spring and starts feeding the deer early which is a good thing. I think trying a number of options and seeing what works best on your specific property would be a good idea. Good luck
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
That is the great thing about soybeans. You don't have to choose. When the beans yellow surface broadcast a winter rye based cover crop and you have standing pods for the winter, keep the soil covered, and winter rye to boot!
Thanks,
Jack
Warner32
A good 3 year old buck
I realize the great benefits of the soil and moisture with the no till method and it makes plotting for people without a plow much more possible.
But i feel like every post or picture I see of a plot that is throw and mow the germination just isn't there? Obviously you can see some germination but to me nothing like a tilled plot.. To me they don't look as full of a plot kind of spotty.. I don't know maybe it's just the pictures I have seen
I know there are plenty of topics on here about it
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Tap
5 year old buck +
Sometimes.
I have mixed results with throw and mow. I think that soil compaction, subsurface organic matter, and the amount of thatch has a lot to do with the germination rate.
And, just as broadcasting requires a higher seed rate over using a planter or drilling, TnM may need a slightly higher seed rate than the tillage and broadcast technique.
There are times and places that a certain bit of tillage will aid the germ rate, but, as a whole, the less tillage we can do the better, IMO. And the less tractor traffic on soil the better.
It seems to me that the Throw and Mow approach works better in the 2nd, 3rd or 4th year it's done. The 1st year that I do it in a certain spot, I do have mixed results. But that spot gets better in following years.
In my case, I have slopes that are often damp and I also have a high deer per sq mile. Soil disturbance, followed by planting highly attractive food, allows the deer to beat the soil to death and then erosion occurs. I'm starting to think my soil will be much better off with a little spottiness in my forage with some naturally growing weeds mixed in.
Success at throw and mow is based on a lot of factors and one size (or exact technique of TnM) does not fit everyone's situation.
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Tap
5 year old buck +
I also think that the type and amount of thatch is important for Throw and Mow. If it's too course (like after mowing woody weeds) the seed is less protected.
In our area, we are being invaded by Japanese Stilt Grass. It is really taking over everything from lawns to the woods. But I've come to realize there is a couple bright sides to JSG... it produces a ton of organic matter and the texture of it's thatch is just about perfect for Throw and Mow.
In our area, we are being invaded by Japanese Stilt Grass. It is really taking over everything from lawns to the woods. But I've come to realize there is a couple bright sides to JSG... it produces a ton of organic matter and the texture of it's thatch is just about perfect for Throw and Mow.
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
I think tap nailed it. I'd just like to add that tillage can provide good short-term results but cause longer term problems. Farmers have use traditional tillage with high inputs for many years. Many are not moving to using no-till drills. As Tap mentions, just like broadcasting seed requires higher deeding rates than drilling seed because of less precision, throw-n-grow requires even more seed. However the damage tillage does to soil significantly reduces its ability to cycle nutrient requiring higher inputs like fertilizer. Over time, the added seed cost is small compared to the nutrient cycling benefits and reduced fertilizer costs. Keep in mind that throw-n-mow is a poor man's approach to no-till. If you have the funds for a no-till drill, you will get better results with less seed. Throw-n-mow is an inexpensive way for a food plotter to get the long-term soil benefits of no-till without the large up-front investment cost of a no-till drill.
Also keep in mind that no-till is part of a much larger sustainability concept for wildlife management. While there is a lot deer managers can learn from farmers, our objectives can be quite different. A farmer wants to maximize yield for profit and harvests or grazes the crop with livestock. Unlike cows which graze, deer are browsers. Most of there diet comes from native foods. Our objective for food plots is to provide a quality food source for the gaps where quality foods are not available. We don't need the kind of yield a farmer does. Frankly, if there is still crop available in your field when the gap in native foods it was planted to cover closes, then you have provided sufficient yield. We don't find monocultures in nature. Plants cycle nutrients best when accompanied by compatible plants in proximity. While some specific weeds can become a problem during some specific periods, in general, weeds are not necessarily a bad thing in a food plot.
My approach has evolved over the years, and my expectations have adjusted with them. Start with a close look at your objectives and think about how deer relate to food. Also keep in mind that the food plot industry and the shows you see on TV are often aimed at creating expectations that cause folks to buy more product, not necessarily improve their deer herd.
Thanks,
Jack
Also keep in mind that no-till is part of a much larger sustainability concept for wildlife management. While there is a lot deer managers can learn from farmers, our objectives can be quite different. A farmer wants to maximize yield for profit and harvests or grazes the crop with livestock. Unlike cows which graze, deer are browsers. Most of there diet comes from native foods. Our objective for food plots is to provide a quality food source for the gaps where quality foods are not available. We don't need the kind of yield a farmer does. Frankly, if there is still crop available in your field when the gap in native foods it was planted to cover closes, then you have provided sufficient yield. We don't find monocultures in nature. Plants cycle nutrients best when accompanied by compatible plants in proximity. While some specific weeds can become a problem during some specific periods, in general, weeds are not necessarily a bad thing in a food plot.
My approach has evolved over the years, and my expectations have adjusted with them. Start with a close look at your objectives and think about how deer relate to food. Also keep in mind that the food plot industry and the shows you see on TV are often aimed at creating expectations that cause folks to buy more product, not necessarily improve their deer herd.
Thanks,
Jack
browndog
5 year old buck +
I tried my first throw and grow last year with not so great results. I had an old clover plot that I wanted to do something with. Clover/grass was about 10" tall and I sprayed it with gly, seeded the next day and ran a drag over it. After 2-3 weeks, I didn't see much for germination, so I tilled some of it and left a small section just for comparison.
Here is a pic(Aug 3) a few days after I tilled most of the failed throw n grow. You can see the little section that I didn't till.
August 25
August 30
Warner32
A good 3 year old buck
Yea looks like most of the results I've been seeing... I'm sure it works for some people but to me I don't want to take that kind of chance of the plot not producing
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browndog
5 year old buck +
I tried it again this year with kale and radish in another clover plot and had the same results as last year. Getting plenty of rain but germination just wasn't there. I ended up tilling it up and reseeded with kale and radish and it looks great.
browndog
5 year old buck +
Heavy clay. I really think for it to work for me, I would need a 2-3 day soaker.
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
I had the same issue when I started. That is why I ask. Clay abused by repeated tillage can form a crust that makes throw and mow nearly impossible. It can take many years to restore the soil. I found that using my tiller but lifting it so that it barely hits the top inch rather than mowing is the key. I This is enough to chop up the vegetation and just enough to break the crust. I'd call it min-till rather than no-till. This works just as well with brassica, WR, Clover, and such as deeper tillage with less negative impact on the soil. Over time doing this and keeping the soil covered the crusting problem diminishes. I now have a number of fields where I can do throw and mow without the min-till. It can take many years to build OM.
Thanks,
Jack
Congrats on the progress! I tried throw and mow for the first time last year, and here is my experience (in case it may help you.) Sprayed the plot area (~ 1 acre) ahead of expected planting, and got a great burndown. Waited until the day before a rain event, spread the seed and then mowed. I put some of everything in the mix, just to see what would "take." WR, Oats, Brassicas, Red Clover, AWP and some radishes. I also broadcast some 13-13-13. The later in the fall, the more the deer used the plot. They were in it during daylight hours all the time, even during hunting season. They kept the whole field mowed short all winter. I debated what to do this past spring, and I decided just to let it go. The WR grew to over 5' tall, but the clover was developing under it. I had no interest in trying to do more for summer food as we are in farming country and there is no shortage of groceries at that time. The plot was never the prettiest, but it worked. There were weeds, but it worked. I didn't keep it looking pretty this summer, but it still worked- the deer and turkeys kept using it some. This year I am trying something a little different, so we will see how it works. This isn't rocket science, and sometimes we make it harder than it has to be. You're getting great advice by experienced guys, you will be fine.
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