Will application of urea hurt clover?

[seadonist]

Got my soil test back and it states that I need N for my winter rye and Oates but none for my clover. Will application of urea applied 3-4 weeks after planting hurt the clover?


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[WTNUT]

I would skip the urea. Take care of the clover first. The rye and oats will be fine.


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[yoderjac]

Nope, it won't hurt clover at all. It needs N to establish but once established fixes N from the atmosphere. The problem with applying N to clover is that it will benefit grasses and other N seeking plants much more than the clover in the long-run. While it will kick-start the clover, in the long run it will advantage weed competition over the clover.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[seadonist]

Nope, it won't hurt clover at all. It needs N to establish but once established fixes N from the atmosphere. The problem with applying N to clover is that it will benefit grasses and other N seeking plants much more than the clover in the long-run. While it will kick-start the clover, in the long run it will advantage weed competition over the clover.

Thanks,

Jack

Thanks, Jack... just the type of info I need (I'm knew to planting/ food plotting). I think the weeds will not be so much of an issue heading into the fall/ winter months and I can always spray in the warmer months. My main concern now is producing a few different types of forage for the deer that can provide food throughout the hunting season. Thanks again for the tip.


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[cornfedkiller]

As WTNUT said, the oats and rye will be fine. And you are just using them as a nurse crop, so its not like you are trying to get a huge grain yield out of it.

 

[yoderjac]

Thanks, Jack... just the type of info I need (I'm knew to planting/ food plotting). I think the weeds will not be so much of an issue heading into the fall/ winter months and I can always spray in the warmer months. My main concern now is producing a few different types of forage for the deer that can provide food throughout the hunting season. Thanks again for the tip.


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The issue applying N will create won't be this fall. It will be over the life of the plot. Think of it this way. After a number of years every clover plot will become weedier. Eventually, even with herbicides and mowing you will lose the battle with a perennial clover monoculture and have to restart. What do we do when we restart? We follow the clover crop with an N-seeking crop with an N-seeking crop for a season or two. We are trying to deplete the N and replace the nutrients the clover used. So, when you add significant N at planting time, you are just shortening the lifespan of the clover you planted. That may or may not be an issue for you depending on your goals.

Clover is more dependent on P and K levels and seems to respond to K the most. So fertilizing before planting is a good idea. You should do a soil test to determine how much of what fertilizer is needed and proper pH is even more important. I'm working at scale, so I buy fertilizer in bulk. One of the bulk fertilizers is MAP. I use that to achieve my P requirements. Map does have a small percentage of N in it. (About 11% as I recall). So, when I fertilize to achieve my P requirement, I am adding some N. However, I would not use Urea on my newly planted clover fields. Keep in mind that my goals are long term and may be different from yours.

You don't have your location or zone in your profile. You might want to add it. That can effect the advise folks provide. I'm in zone 7a. Summer weeds tend to be more of an issue as you go further south. So, adding N may have less negative impact on clover fields in the north than south.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[seadonist]

This whole fertilizer thing almost requires an entire college level course to really understand how the recommended pounds per acre, percentage of N,P,K and mixing incomplete fertilizers to get the proper mix. And I thought the hard part was over... lol

Jack: the soil test results I got are what spurred this post. Now I've got my chemist coat on, trying to get it right. I feel like I'm back in college

I'm in south Mississippi BTW

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[sagittarius]

I think the weeds will not be so much of an issue heading into the fall/ winter months and I can always spray in the warmer months. My main concern now is producing a few different types of forage for the deer that can provide food throughout the hunting season.

Exactly. You are already thinking like an experienced foodplotter. It would help if you put your location in your profile, that will effect the advice given. As Jack said "Summer weeds tend to be more of an issue as you go further south. So, adding N may have less negative impact on clover fields in the north than south. "

 

[yoderjac]

This whole fertilizer thing almost requires an entire college level course to really understand how the recommended pounds per acre, percentage of N,P,K and mixing incomplete fertilizers to get the proper mix. And I thought the hard part was over... lol

Jack: the soil test results I got are what spurred this post. Now I've got my chemist coat on, trying to get it right. I feel like I'm back in college

I'm in south Mississippi BTW

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Actually, understanding how to mix fertilizer to achieve a particular recommendation is simple math. The thing that really does require a college degree is understanding soils and plants to come up with a recommendation. Most soil tests don't measure N. Most tests that food plotters use don't even consider banked N credits from previous legume crops. The N part of the recommendation generally comes solely from the needs of the crop you plan to plant. Even the P and K recommendations (which are measured) are for farmers who have different objectives than food plotters. Most farmers are interested in maximizing financial gain. This means maximizing yield, removing most of the nutrients at harvest, and using high inputs for the following crop.

"Ray the soil guy" does a good job of explaining some of the basics of soil health. Start with this video and watch a few: https://vimeo.com/channels/raythesoilguy/23850878

For attraction, a single short-term crop with maximum yield can be fine, but for QDM I'm looking for a sustainable approach that provides quality foods when nature is stingy. Deer are browsers by nature. Farmers benefit from yield, but as long as there is some quality food left in my plot when the stress period I'm addressing is over, the plot achieved its objective. It is only food that makes it into a deer's belly that really counts. Excess yield with a lush plot left over after the stress period is money that could have been put into other aspects of the QDM program.

I'm starting to think in terms of sustainable volume rather than short-term yield and focusing on improving soil health. I'm still not at the point where I need to be in terms of understanding soil science. I doubt I ever will. That doesn't mean you can't have great food plots!

Thanks,

Jack

 

[seadonist]

Jack, you and I have very similar goals and I have bought into the no till method of planting, although I have only been studying it for the last couple months. Building soil health is one of my main goals in the long term. Great video BTW. I tell you, food plotting is as rewarding as the hunt itself and it's the challenge that attracts me to it


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[4wanderingeyes]

I usually spread winter rye into my clover plots in the fall, it will come in small in the fall, and fill in the thin spots, then in the spring, it grows big and tall. I let the winter rye in my clover plots fall naturally during the summer. The advantage of this is the winter rye uses the built up nitrogen in the soil, which in turn reduces weeds. The winter rye has a deterrent to weeds naturally, and helps fight weeds. The winter rye pulls up other nutrients from deep down, and feeds the clover. So far my clover plot is doing really well after 4 years, without many weeds at all, and no spraying. The only time I am in the clover plot is to toss winter rye on it on Labor Day weekend. This method gives fawns a place to hide in early summer, and it really helps build OM in the soil. For an area that started off as an old camping site, compacted soil and old gravel, has turned into a nice little half acre clover/winter rye food plot.

 

[bueller]

I usually spread winter rye into my clover plots in the fall, it will come in small in the fall, and fill in the thin spots, then in the spring, it grows big and tall. I let the winter rye in my clover plots fall naturally during the summer. The advantage of this is the winter rye uses the built up nitrogen in the soil, which in turn reduces weeds. The winter rye has a deterrent to weeds naturally, and helps fight weeds. The winter rye pulls up other nutrients from deep down, and feeds the clover. So far my clover plot is doing really well after 4 years, without many weeds at all, and no spraying. The only time I am in the clover plot is to toss winter rye on it on Labor Day weekend. This method gives fawns a place to hide in early summer, and it really helps build OM in the soil. For an area that started off as an old camping site, compacted soil and old gravel, has turned into a nice little half acre clover/winter rye food plot.

That's pretty much what I've been doing, also with great success. Another advantage you didn't mention is the taller rye seems to take the stress off the lower growing clover during our hot summer months. Even with the dry sand I have, the clover underneath the rye has been staying green and healthy ALL summer long.

 

[cornfedkiller]

Sorry seadontist for hijacking, but this kinda intrigues me...

I usually spread winter rye into my clover plots in the fall, it will come in small in the fall, and fill in the thin spots, then in the spring, it grows big and tall. I let the winter rye in my clover plots fall naturally during the summer. The advantage of this is the winter rye uses the built up nitrogen in the soil, which in turn reduces weeds. The winter rye has a deterrent to weeds naturally, and helps fight weeds. The winter rye pulls up other nutrients from deep down, and feeds the clover. So far my clover plot is doing really well after 4 years, without many weeds at all, and no spraying. The only time I am in the clover plot is to toss winter rye on it on Labor Day weekend. This method gives fawns a place to hide in early summer, and it really helps build OM in the soil. For an area that started off as an old camping site, compacted soil and old gravel, has turned into a nice little half acre clover/winter rye food plot.

After the winter rye heads out in the spring, what happens to it? When you say you let it fall naturally during the summer, do you mean it eventually just dies and falls over? And then you broadcast more winter rye into it each Labor Day?

At what rate do you broadcast the rye in that situation?

 

[seadonist]

No worries


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[4wanderingeyes]

Sorry seadontist for hijacking, but this kinda intrigues me...



After the winter rye heads out in the spring, what happens to it? When you say you let it fall naturally during the summer, do you mean it eventually just dies and falls over? And then you broadcast more winter rye into it each Labor Day?

At what rate do you broadcast the rye in that situation?

Yes, I just let it fall over. I get very little growth from the seed heads, the plot is about a half an acre, and I spread almost a full bag on it. It comes back in the spring thick, but it hasn't ever effected the clover.


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[cornfedkiller]

Yes, I just let it fall over. I get very little growth from the seed heads, the plot is about a half an acre, and I spread almost a full bag on it. It comes back in the spring thick, but it hasn't ever effected the clover.


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Wow thats close to 100#/acre. That's quite a bit heavier than I was thinking...but I'll take your word for it!

 

[bueller]

Wow thats close to 100#/acre. That's quite a bit heavier than I was thinking...but I'll take your word for it!

I've gone up to 150#/acre with this method and never felt it was too thick. Remember the seed is not being worked or packed into the ground at all so there are some losses for multiple reasons. Great low maintenance, productive plot year round minus the deep snowpack days.

 

[4wanderingeyes]

I also spread about a bag of Winter rye, and a bag of oats into my 3/4 acre turnips, and radish plot every fall. Mostly to have something growing in the spring with the rye, and the oats will feed the deer this fall. Also the turkeys love to eat the seed, so I spread heavy.

 

[WI hunter]

I also spread about a bag of Winter rye, and a bag of oats into my 3/4 acre turnips, and radish plot every fall. Mostly to have something growing in the spring with the rye, and the oats will feed the deer this fall. Also the turkeys love to eat the seed, so I spread heavy.

Do you spread all of this into an established clover plot? Do you just spread it and let the rain do its work on getting it to grow?

 

[4wanderingeyes]

I just spread it over the top. It turns out decent every year.


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