Tossed Rye?

[davidhelmly]

It is a cereal cover crop ... it only roots and sprouts in in the fall. Full mature growth happens the following spring.

It's $11-$13 per 55 lbs ... 50-100 lbs is great for 1 acre ... what doesn't green up in the fall greens up in the spring. It will grow in your living room carpet with moisture added.

If you can't get WR to germinate ... you probably don't have a future as a food plotter .... stop over thinking it ...

I am wish it were that price in GA, $24 for 50# here.

 

[Joe Buck]

I just broadcast rye and wheat mixed together a couple days ago and it's been raining ever since. First time I've ever tried wheat. The mix was 2 to 1 rye/wheat. Put it on plots that already had stuff growing to give the deer something green this winter as long as the snow doesn't get too deep this winter. Rye does even better in a plot that already has clover if I take the disc and just scratch the surface(clover seems to love abuse and then the rye gets a little better soil contact).

I just broadcast rye and wheat mixed together a couple days ago and it's been raining ever since. First time I've ever tried wheat. The mix was 2 to 1 rye/wheat. Put it on plots that already had stuff growing to give the deer something green this winter as long as the snow doesn't get too deep this winter. Rye does even better in a plot that already has clover if I take the disc and just scratch the surface(clover seems to love abuse and then the rye gets a little better soil contact).

We started throw and roll this year and have had limited success in our central sands area in WI. even thou we have had plenty of rain. We planted brassicas July 27 and some areas of the 3/4 acre plot did well and other areas not so well. On Aug. 25 we overseeded 224# of W/R into the brassica area and our existing 3/4 acre of red clover, a total of 1 1/2 acres. by just broadcasting on top. Visited land Sept. 2 and almost no germination and could not find hardly any seed on ground. Cameras are telling me the sandhill cranes, turkeys and blackbirds are eating most of the seed. We did not have much rain in that time period.
Sept. 11, during the light rain I broadcasted another 224# W/R over the same area. We got heavy rain the next day, close to an inch, so I thougt that would be perfect. Went up their Sept. 14 for opening of our bow season and much of the seed was gone again by our birds. Of the seed that I could find most of it was sprouting on top of the ground, not yet into the soil (very sandy soil). We did not cultipack because I thought it would kill our brassicas.
We will have access to a disc next year and was pleasantly surprised to hear you say that it doesen't seem to affect your clover. We would like to continue throw and roll to help our soil health but some how we have to get that seed more covered. We are leaning to just do W/R and Red Clover in the future and maybe adding some Chicory. It's hard to get much to grow in this sand without alot of rain.
Would like any other thoughts about lightly discing in existing clover or any other ideas. Thankig you in advance for a reply.

 

[jsasker007]

About the only thing that comes to mind for your situation JB would be to maybe try to time throwing out your seed when the other stuff you already have growing needs to be cut. Then you would throw out your new seed first and mow your plot after you seed---that might hide a bunch of your new seed from the birds. Basic throw and mow concept. When I hit my clover lightly with a disc it exposes some new bare ground and does disrupt the clover some. The clover bounces back easily and the new seed has a better chance for soil contact. Cultipacker would help you get quicker germination also as long as you try this in the middle of a drought. Even if everything is done perfectly you still have to rely on mother nature to give you a little moisture. Brassicas can be run over a couple of times when it's young and fairly small but larger brassicas will break so that is a judgement call on your part.

 

[Joe Buck]

About the only thing that comes to mind for your situation JB would be to maybe try to time throwing out your seed when the other stuff you already have growing needs to be cut. Then you would throw out your new seed first and mow your plot after you seed---that might hide a bunch of your new seed from the birds. Basic throw and mow concept. When I hit my clover lightly with a disc it exposes some new bare ground and does disrupt the clover some. The clover bounces back easily and the new seed has a better chance for soil contact. Cultipacker would help you get quicker germination also as long as you try this in the middle of a drought. Even if everything is done perfectly you still have to rely on mother nature to give you a little moisture. Brassicas can be run over a couple of times when it's young and fairly small but larger brassicas will break so that is a judgement call on your part.

Thanks for the advice, I really appreciate it. So you would recommend lightly discing and then cultipacking? I assume you meant not to try this in the middle of a drought?

 

[yoderjac]

We started throw and roll this year and have had limited success in our central sands area in WI. even thou we have had plenty of rain. We planted brassicas July 27 and some areas of the 3/4 acre plot did well and other areas not so well. On Aug. 25 we overseeded 224# of W/R into the brassica area and our existing 3/4 acre of red clover, a total of 1 1/2 acres. by just broadcasting on top. Visited land Sept. 2 and almost no germination and could not find hardly any seed on ground. Cameras are telling me the sandhill cranes, turkeys and blackbirds are eating most of the seed. We did not have much rain in that time period.
Sept. 11, during the light rain I broadcasted another 224# W/R over the same area. We got heavy rain the next day, close to an inch, so I thougt that would be perfect. Went up their Sept. 14 for opening of our bow season and much of the seed was gone again by our birds. Of the seed that I could find most of it was sprouting on top of the ground, not yet into the soil (very sandy soil). We did not cultipack because I thought it would kill our brassicas.
We will have access to a disc next year and was pleasantly surprised to hear you say that it doesen't seem to affect your clover. We would like to continue throw and roll to help our soil health but some how we have to get that seed more covered. We are leaning to just do W/R and Red Clover in the future and maybe adding some Chicory. It's hard to get much to grow in this sand without alot of rain.
Would like any other thoughts about lightly discing in existing clover or any other ideas. Thankig you in advance for a reply.

The real benefit to T&M is lack of tillage. This is especially important in poor soils like sandy or heavy clay. It takes years of mixing and rotating legumes and grasses to build the OM that was lost through tillage and is necessary for good nutrient cycling. Limited success is to be expected in the first few years. It is too tempting for many to backslide into tillage to get the short term gains at a long-term cost.

My general advice would be this. Forget about providing deer food. Focus on good soil building mixes and rotations. They will provide good deer food as a byproduct. T&M with little OM in sandy soil and trying to focus on deer is probably biting off too much. For example, the early turnips or radish followed by WR is a great technique when you soil can support it. Planting them together before a rain (rather than focusing on deer) and cultipacking would have served you better.

As soil improve, you can move your focus to deer first. As OM builds top down over time, and the sandy soil begins to retain more moisture, planting right before a rain becomes less critical than it is right now. I would forget crops like brassica when first starting. I'd focus on WR with an annual clover for starters in the fall. Spring might include something like sunn hemp and buckwheat. Adding a little GHR to the fall mix would give you some brassica component with organic tillage driving OM a little deeper, but I'd keep this component light. Notice that while the focus of this approach is soil health (do no harm with tillage and slowly build OM), this kind of crop mix will feed deer pretty well.

I too have done the two stage brassica and WR/CC planting. It worked much better after my soil started improving.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[jsasker007]

I'm saying to disc very lightly(maybe the top inch) to expose some dirt for better seed to soil contact. Or throw the seed(broadcast), then mow if that's possible. Cultipacker will push seeds into soil and pack them in place better. Some throw the seeds and just run the seeds over will a 4 wheeler or tractor to pack. If you can mow after seeding you'll be covering/hiding the seeds from the birds giving you more seeds left to grow when they do germinate.

 

[Joe Buck]

I'm saying to disc very lightly(maybe the top inch) to expose some dirt for better seed to soil contact. Or throw the seed(broadcast), then mow if that's possible. Cultipacker will push seeds into soil and pack them in place better. Some throw the seeds and just run the seeds over will a 4 wheeler or tractor to pack. If you can mow after seeding you'll be covering/hiding the seeds from the birds giving you more seeds left to grow when they do germinate.

You would use the cultipacker in either case i'm assuming.

 

[jsasker007]

I would use the cultipacker unless it would harm other things already growing and starting to get more brittle on the stem like beans,corn,milo and even brassicas will get too brittle to take being rolled over. If you can step on a plant with your foot and it doesn't break the stem it can be rolled/cultipacked. Try to time it just before a rain is best for overseeding and getting the quickest germination.

 

[jsasker007]

Rolling over things like clover and chicory is no problem at all.

 

[Peplin Creek]

I think rye will germinate on a damp side-walk. I too have had it grow in a pile of wood bark and just crud (not actual soil) in the bed of my truck before.

If I put a layer of dirt in the bed of my truck and plant the rye, because I know it will grow...and the deer get into the bed of the truck to eat it....is it still poaching if you are shooting deer that are already in your truck????

Not if you’re standing outside the truck when you shoot... might be the easiest deer you’ll ever have to load up.

 

[Peplin Creek]

I seriously broadcast into standing plots all the time before rain. Works awesome. I don’t have that kinda luck with oats though.

 

[cavey]

You can get bin run winter rye or winter wheat from a farm for next to nothing too. I got a pickup bed filled for 25 bucks and some beer.

 

[j-bird]

Not if you’re standing outside the truck when you shoot... might be the easiest deer you’ll ever have to load up.

That's what I was thinking..... Be my luck the arrow or bullet would be a complete pass thru and I end up shooting my truck!

 

[Joe Buck]

The real benefit to T&M is lack of tillage. This is especially important in poor soils like sandy or heavy clay. It takes years of mixing and rotating legumes and grasses to build the OM that was lost through tillage and is necessary for good nutrient cycling. Limited success is to be expected in the first few years. It is too tempting for many to backslide into tillage to get the short term gains at a long-term cost.

My general advice would be this. Forget about providing deer food. Focus on good soil building mixes and rotations. They will provide good deer food as a byproduct. T&M with little OM in sandy soil and trying to focus on deer is probably biting off too much. For example, the early turnips or radish followed by WR is a great technique when you soil can support it. Planting them together before a rain (rather than focusing on deer) and cultipacking would have served you better.

As soil improve, you can move your focus to deer first. As OM builds top down over time, and the sandy soil begins to retain more moisture, planting right before a rain becomes less critical than it is right now. I would forget crops like brassica when first starting. I'd focus on WR with an annual clover for starters in the fall. Spring might include something like sunn hemp and buckwheat. Adding a little GHR to the fall mix would give you some brassica component with organic tillage driving OM a little deeper, but I'd keep this component light. Notice that while the focus of this approach is soil health (do no harm with tillage and slowly build OM), this kind of crop mix will feed deer pretty well.

I too have done the two stage brassica and WR/CC planting. It worked much better after my soil started improving.

Thanks,

Jack

Thanks for your thoughts. Are you saying that just scratching the very top inch or so to bury some seed so the birds are not eating everything like jasker007 is suggesting is not going to work in T&MOW or am I misunderstanding?

 

[yoderjac]

Thanks for your thoughts. Are you saying that just scratching the very top inch or so to bury some seed so the birds are not eating everything like jasker007 is suggesting is not going to work in T&MOW or am I misunderstanding?

You are misunderstanding. What he is suggesting is called min-till and I had to do it with my heavy clay when I first started because the OM was so low and the clay content so high, it would crust. I had to break that crust to get germination. As I've built OM over time, there is less need to min till. I do it with a tiller on my tractor but using the 3pt hitch to lift the tiller so high that it is hardy hits the top inch.

That approach would not be my first choice with sandy soil. The issue with sand is that water and nutrients infiltrate it very fast. Minimum tillage is better than traditional tillage for the long-run, but no-tillage is even better with sand. The point I was trying to make is that rather than trying to plant what you want for deer. Choose crops that germinate well when surface broadcast. Plant right before a rain regardless if it is too early or too late for the crop to peak when you want it to for deer. Lower your expectation for the first few years of T&M. Tolerate most weeds. Take a long view. If birds eating seed is an issue, increase the seeding rate to compensate and plant a quick germinating crop like WR right before a rain so the seed is on the ground less time before germination.

I realize that we all work within constraints. Yours may not allow you to do this and you may have to make a compromise like min-till. I'm trying to get you think longer term, and my response is also aimed at the many other who read these threads but don't post.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Joe Buck]

You are misunderstanding. What he is suggesting is called min-till and I had to do it with my heavy clay when I first started because the OM was so low and the clay content so high, it would crust. I had to break that crust to get germination. As I've built OM over time, there is less need to min till. I do it with a tiller on my tractor but using the 3pt hitch to lift the tiller so high that it is hardy hits the top inch.

That approach would not be my first choice with sandy soil. The issue with sand is that water and nutrients infiltrate it very fast. Minimum tillage is better than traditional tillage for the long-run, but no-tillage is even better with sand. The point I was trying to make is that rather than trying to plant what you want for deer. Choose crops that germinate well when surface broadcast. Plant right before a rain regardless if it is too early or too late for the crop to peak when you want it to for deer. Lower your expectation for the first few years of T&M. Tolerate most weeds. Take a long view. If birds eating seed is an issue, increase the seeding rate to compensate and plant a quick germinating crop like WR right before a rain so the seed is on the ground less time before germination.

I realize that we all work within constraints. Yours may not allow you to do this and you may have to make a compromise like min-till. I'm trying to get you think longer term, and my response is also aimed at the many other who read these threads but don't post.

Thanks,

Jack

Thanks Jack and Jasker you guys have been a big help. I failed to mention in my first post that we do not own this property and only lease it for hunting. Our farmer has let us foodplot in 2 acres of his 30 acre cornfield. It is about 2 hours away. My goal is 3 fold. 1) To improve the soil in this part of the field which is the worst and most sandy. 2) To provide a good food source for our deer after the rut and before our severe winters. 3) To have a good food source immediately in the spring coming out of our tough winters for fawn and antler developement. Thanks Again for all your advice !

 

[hilltopper]

Joe, did you put up any exclosures? Without exclosures it's often difficult to tell what is due to poor growing conditions and what's due to deer and bird foraging. Their value is immense. I have amazing deer pressure and used to think all my food plot problems were due to poor soil, poor seeding, etc. Here's the exclosure on my brassica plot. My deer start on brassicas as soon as they germinate