Topworking Late

[deepsleep]

After reading about topworking here and elsewhere, I was worried I might be missing the boat as I can't get up to my place until this weekend. I have quite a few CSF seedling crabs that I will graft over to better (larger than a pea) selections with scions I harvested up there in mid-late March. I am in 5b and it sounds like half of the apples are either full bloom or well on the way. Trying to make myself feel better, I ran into this article from Cornell that basically implies most people top-work trees to early and that the optimum time may be later than conventional wisdom (leaves as big as squirrels' ears). I was wondering if anyone else had read this and what they thought. Makes me feel like I may have a fighting chance. Hopefully the link works.

http://blogs.cornell.edu/plantpathhvl/files/2015/02/12-3-Hoying-NYFQ-grafting-28tz2tf.pdf

 

[leexrayshady]

Yep just mine on Monday

 

[leexrayshady]

One of the several I did

 

[Criggster]

I know I am much further south than you are but I did my top working two weeks ago and the tree had just finished blooming. The problem I had this year was the scions started breaking bud in the fridge. I will not know the results till next weekend.

 

[Dan Wombles]

Two years ago (in western IL), I top worked 2 trees late spring after trees were fully leafed out. Both grew like weeds. Seems like the bark slips better at thhat time.

 

[Dan Wombles]

Once I had a ornamental pear get a severe case of fireblight, and it spred to one apple tree. Cut the pear down and burned it, and cut out and burned the infected apple limbs. That was the end of it, so far.

 

[Rally1148]

I've been in contact with a member of the Michigan Fruit and Nut Growers Assoc. and he said that he's had success anywhere from late feb-June. He said the biggest things are:
1. the bark is slipping.
2. the scions are dormant.

From what I've gathered online "researching", members here, and this individual, you 100% need the bark slipping. Other than that, as long as your scions aren't budding, you've got a great chance. From what I've read, the biggest problem with the scions budding is that they have a greater chance of running out of stored energy before they establish their connection with the tree itself.

I'd say you've got a good shot, and you'll know in a few weeks. Worst case scenario you tried, failed, and learned something. With the amount of potential scionwood and help on this site, I think that saying you have ample opportunities in the future would be an understatement.

 

[Rally1148]

That's good news Dan. I'm going to give it a try this weekend.

Do you ever have any fire blight issues there? I'm wondering if that plays into the grafting times? I know it likes to attack wounds , blossoms , and new young growth. I lost one old tree to it before I knew what it was.

I've heard that one of the biggest things with fireblight, and a lot of other problems, is air flow and sunlight. I've been doing pruning of my trees in the spring and summer for the last few years, and haven't noticed any significant increases in fireblight occurrence. I know it's not the ideal time, but it's either December, or mid-late spring or summer. Perhaps I'm naive, but at this point I'm much more worried about damage from cold than I am diseases.

 

[Rally1148]

In zone 5a/5b cold damage should be pretty low on your list of concerns. I never had (or heard from others) any significant winter damage when I lived on the border of 4b/5a... Diseases on the other hand were every year occurrences.

I figured you could get it anywhere!

 

[deepsleep]

Thanks for all of the info, gentlemen. I found the article interesting as it was the only source I've ever seen state the best time to graft is the 30 days POST blossom. Most of the stuff I've read says to do it much earlier. I actually live in Florida and haven't been to my place since the scion harvest in March. I left the heat on in my house so I could store my scions in the fridge, so I hope they stayed dormant and alive. I have a huge amount of topworking to get done over the next couple of years. I also grew 3x18 Dunstans that need to be planted out and I'm planting 25 B118s to graft at a later date. Should be a fun week as usual!

 

[deepsleep]

Two years ago (in western IL), I top worked 2 trees late spring after trees were fully leafed out. Both grew like weeds. Seems like the bark slips better at thhat time.

How did you manage the branches on the "rootstock"? Had you pruned most of it back when dormant? That is what that paper I linked says to do and then freshen up the cuts right before grafting. I did not do that so I have 5 or 6 foot tall crabs with lots of branches on them. Should I take off everything other than one nurse branch, or leave several as the trees will be fairly well leafed out already? Any input would be appreciated.

 

[Dan Wombles]

Deepsleep, I left two low nurse branches the first year, then cut them off late the next winter. You do not have to use dormant scion for top working. Just cut some good young branches that are already leafed out. Do a search on you tube, as their are some good videos on there showing how to top graft with bark grafts.

 

[deepsleep]

Deepsleep, I left two low nurse branches the first year, then cut them off late the next winter. You do not have to use dormant scion for top working. Just cut some good young branches that are already leafed out. Do a search on you tube, as their are some good videos on there showing how to top graft with bark grafts.

Yes of course that makes sense--I'll just cut the central leader off a couple inches above the lowest branches. I've been going over this stuff in my head so much without actually looking at it I confused myself. I didn't realize you could have very good success rates with non-dormant scion with apple. I may give it a try as I have a swamp crab on my other property that I didn't manage to get to in March. I may have t-buds from that last fall but if they didn't take I may try to graft a leafed out branch on. Thanks for all the tips and wish me luck.

 

[deepsleep]

Well, I'm up here now, and so far so good. The bark is slipping very easily and my scionwood looks great so I am optimistic. It is strange cutting the whole tops off the crabs I'm working as most are loaded with blossoms. I also found that many of the t-buds I thought were dead are very much alive including 2 from a tasty crab I found on another property. That had me really pumped. I did about 10 trees yesterday, planning on 40 or 50 today-just wish it would hurry up and get light out.

 

[deepsleep]

One other question...is treekote okay to fill in gaps around the scions that have been bark grafted? I ordered wax but it is not here yet. I have found that with larger scions there may be some tiny gaps after wrapping that treekote may ooze into. On some i tried wrapping parafilm around the base of the scion and then put treekote over the top. Ideally, I had planed to put gasheel's around the base then treekote over that. Anyone have any insight? Nothing like waking up at 3 AM because of grafting excitement.

 

[Rally1148]

One other question...is treekote okay to fill in gaps around the scions that have been bark grafted? I ordered wax but it is not here yet. I have found that with larger scions there may be some tiny gaps after wrapping that treekote may ooze into. On some i tried wrapping parafilm around the base of the scion and then put treekote over the top. Ideally, I had planed to put gasheel's around the base then treekote over that. Anyone have any insight? Nothing like waking up at 3 AM because of grafting excitement.

I was under the impression that it's ok to put it in the little gap, as long as you don't really really force it in there so that it goes between the scion and the tree (where it would be preventing contact... not just where there is the air gap)

 

[Dan Wombles]

You can use toilet wax rings for covering the top cut

 

[deepsleep]

Thanks guys. The sap is flowing like crazy today to the point of washing the treekote off. I'm going to get some toilet rings and try both. Sure is great to be outside here at this time of year!

 

[Rally1148]

Thanks guys. The sap is flowing like crazy today to the point of washing the treekote off. I'm going to get some toilet rings and try both. Sure is great to be outside here at this time of year!

Maybe that's why "they" (quotes because it's been said on the site, as well as on other sites) to do it earlier. It might just be because it's more of a pain in the backside rather than it not working.

 

[greyphase]

I used the toilet ring wax this year for my limb grafting and was very pleased with the results. Easier and a lot less messy than the Treekote.