Food plots for feeding deer

Jack, in the spirit of full disclosure my experience and strategies are very similar. Summer plantings of sunn hemp, cow peas, soy beans, along with other things I'm always experimenting with receive heavy pressure from the time they are planted till terminated. The vertical component provides several values including concealment as well as trellises for the peas to climb. Deer are in the fields all day and night and are less wary than in the fall. I tend to think that is more hormonal but the outcome is the same. When we plant fall plots it is just about the time acorns start to fall. Early utilization is light and intermittent. Does and fawns are always present and during the rut bucks pass thru for obvious reasons. We shoot almost all of our bucks in the fields.Once the rut is over hardly anything is seen in the fields other than a few does and fawns. The fawns are there constantly which I think is a good thing. However later in the winter when the acorns diminish and hard weather arrives, deer start coming back to the fields. They pour out late and stay all night. Exclosures show heavy grazing. Crimson clover especially will be grazed heavily till April green up . Shortly thereafter we begin the summer plantings and the cycle repeats. All this adds up to significant utilization throughout much of the year.

I won't argue at all that food plot use is not significant. It is here too. However, I still see it as a supplement to native foods. One indicator of that here is fawn buck weights and the strong correlation with mast crop from the previous year. Acorns are only one of the many native foods utilized here, but their availability is a strong leading indicator of our next seasons average fawn weights.

Thanks,

Jack
 
Any correlation between buck fawn wts and mature (5yr old) buck wts? ie - if the get a good start will they always have an advantage over the bucks born on years with low mast? Or can a couple of weak mast yrs equalize everything?
 
Any correlation between buck fawn wts and mature (5yr old) buck wts? ie - if the get a good start will they always have an advantage over the bucks born on years with low mast? Or can a couple of weak mast yrs equalize everything?

I don't have enough data to say. We don't kill many older bucks. Our target is 3 1/2+ in our situation for experienced hunters. We have only killed a few 3 1/2 year old deer. I would presume that any correlation with fawns and mature bucks, if there is one, is more evident in the north where under weight deer have a harsh winter to deal with.

This year, I have a couple pictures of spotted fawns in November. Do bucks that get a poor start catch up? I would guess probably not completely, but that is just a guess.

Thanks,

Jack
 
Off topic, but since young bucks have come up - does anyone have knowledge or pics of how big yearling bucks can get in the wild? Talking weights and antler size. It's something I'm a little sketchy on. Always just assumed the good yearling bucks are the tiny, slender little 8 or 10 point racks, that just look like an obvious yearling. What I haven't figured out yet, is if there are a handful getting bigger than that. Baker, you surely must have some good insight into this.
 
I don't have enough data to say. We don't kill many older bucks. Our target is 3 1/2+ in our situation for experienced hunters. We have only killed a few 3 1/2 year old deer. I would presume that any correlation with fawns and mature bucks, if there is one, is more evident in the north where under weight deer have a harsh winter to deal with.

This year, I have a couple pictures of spotted fawns in November. Do bucks that get a poor start catch up? I would guess probably not completely, but that is just a guess.

Thanks,

Jack
Thanks for the input. That kind of data is hard to come by due to the nature of the situation and the TONs of variables involved.
 
Thanks for the input. That kind of data is hard to come by due to the nature of the situation and the TONs of variables involved.

It would require a large management area and a lot of longitudinal data. I first learned about the fawn/acorn correlation from a military base that conduced acorn surveys and collected weights from deer taken over about 65,000 acres. That is a sizeable hunting program that collects a lot of data. Fawns are obvious so whomever was checking-in deer on base could easily collect the weight data. I'm a conservation volunteer. I've participated in lots of different projects on base. One of the projects they have is the acorn survey. They have specific oak trees identified distributed over the base. Each year, they sent out volunteers with binoculars to actually count a sampling of acorns from these trees year after year to approximate the mast crop average across the base for each year. While I don't do the formal mast crop counts on my place, because it is much smaller, I can much more easily get a feel for the mast crop each year. I typically use a broad scale of Failure, Poor, Typical, High, and Record.

There are some areas on that base closer to populated areas that are designated as Archery-only. These comprise only a few thousand acres and have lower per/acre harvest because of the equipment restriction, but they are part of the state DMAP program. That means jaw bones are pulled and aged from every deer harvested in these areas. One could probably compare the weights of mature bucks to the mast crop numbers their fawn year to look for a correlation, but I'm not sure if a high enough percentage of mature bucks are harvested from these smaller areas to have statistical significance.

Thanks,

Jack
 
Off topic, but since young bucks have come up - does anyone have knowledge or pics of how big yearling bucks can get in the wild? Talking weights and antler size. It's something I'm a little sketchy on. Always just assumed the good yearling bucks are the tiny, slender little 8 or 10 point racks, that just look like an obvious yearling. What I haven't figured out yet, is if there are a handful getting bigger than that. Baker, you surely must have some good insight into this.

Your description is pretty good for yearling bucks in my area. They can vary from small spikes to 10-point basket racks. Bodies are as you describe as well. I find it much more challenging field judge a 2 1/2 year old from a 3 1/2 or older buck in our area. Spreads can be similar. The main difference I tend to see is antler girth. Body differences are more subtle. Trying to make a judgment under field conditions often results in a 2 1/2 year old being shot by mistake.

Thanks,

Jack
 
Morning all, I'm about to leave for the beautiful Hebron valley in Va. to visit my sister/bil at their farm for Thanksgiving. And may we all give thanks for the countless blessings we have.

Seems the conversation has shifted to fawn weights and antler size. Dr. Harry Jacobson did landmark studies while at Ms. State on yearling spikes and their future potential debunking the idea that yearling spikes were genetically inferior. I'lll ask him if he also compared weights from yearling to maturity. I don't know.

What he found was there are many reasons a yearling may have spike antlers but that they generally catch up with their multi pointed cohorts by age 3. From there the antler potential evened out. I'll make a wild speculation I cant support that body weights may even out as well. Why?

One big factor in why some yearlings are spikes rather than multi pointed is when they are born. Deer here are my farm start hitting the ground in April while Jack is seeing spotted fawns in Nov. This can be resultant from poor b/d ratios, yearling fawns being bred, or other anomalies. Clearly a fawn born in April has a better start at yearling antlers and body weight than one born in Oct or later, but at least with antler growth they catch up years down the road. Of course if bucks are getting shot at 3 or younger they will be smaller than their yearling cohorts born with branched antlers.

I will also speculate that late born fawns have a poorer chance of survival especially in the north where extreme weather increases mortality Its interesting to think about food supply available for fawns born April vs late summer as well. April hits full spring green up followed by beans peas and summer crops where available. Great for mothers, easy meals and as the fawns are weaned good groceries. Late born fawns have to deal with the transition period between summer fall when things can be a bit weak. If no ag is available tougher sledding for mothers and when weaning for the fawns. Have a mast failure and problem is exasperated. However where small grains are available fawns are typically the first deer in the fields and stay the longest. Very valuable for their start in life.

My experience with body weights in all age classes is that we have shifted the entire bell curve producing heavier deer resultant from enhanced nutrition . Both the deer here on my farm as well as ranch are measurably heavier than the surrounding neighborhood. Regarding the correlation between acorns/fawn weight I wonder if those studies were done in areas where no ag was available? That correlation would make perfect sense if the primary fall food supply was acorns along with no ag during the summer or fall. Just curious.
 
Off topic, but since young bucks have come up - does anyone have knowledge or pics of how big yearling bucks can get in the wild? Talking weights and antler size. It's something I'm a little sketchy on. Always just assumed the good yearling bucks are the tiny, slender little 8 or 10 point racks, that just look like an obvious yearling. What I haven't figured out yet, is if there are a handful getting bigger than that. Baker, you surely must have some good insight into this.
I guess I didn't specifically address your question.I candidly pay little attention to yearling buck racks. Most of the deer on the farm have multiple points but the bandwidth of total inches is narrow irrespective of points. I start paying attention to bucks racks at about 3 when they may just start showing their potential . But even at 3 they could still be suppressed by numerous factors that start to disappear with maturity.

Weights on the hoof are something I pay little attention to at all age classes, certainly younger deer. The only thing we have noticed is some deer have long ' limousine ' bodies while some deer have short stocky bodies. The short one frequently fool us having smaller antlers than expected relative to anticipated size and body weights are way less than predicted. Lastly and this probably isn't relavent to most but curiously we find bucks 7 or older to frequently weigh much less than anticipated. Their body frame looks big but upon examination they have loose skin, less muscle mass yet usually good body fat, { kinda like older people } A buck we would guesstimate to be 250 lbs+ may only weigh 200 lbs.
 
Last edited:
Morning all, I'm about to leave for the beautiful Hebron valley in Va. to visit my sister/bil at their farm for Thanksgiving. And may we all give thanks for the countless blessings we have.

Seems the conversation has shifted to fawn weights and antler size. Dr. Harry Jacobson did landmark studies while at Ms. State on yearling spikes and their future potential debunking the idea that yearling spikes were genetically inferior. I'lll ask him if he also compared weights from yearling to maturity. I don't know.

What he found was there are many reasons a yearling may have spike antlers but that they generally catch up with their multi pointed cohorts by age 3. From there the antler potential evened out. I'll make a wild speculation I cant support that body weights may even out as well. Why?

One big factor in why some yearlings are spikes rather than multi pointed is when they are born. Deer here are my farm start hitting the ground in April while Jack is seeing spotted fawns in Nov. This can be resultant from poor b/d ratios, yearling fawns being bred, or other anomalies. Clearly a fawn born in April has a better start at yearling antlers and body weight than one born in Oct or later, but at least with antler growth they catch up years down the road. Of course if bucks are getting shot at 3 or younger they will be smaller than their yearling cohorts born with branched antlers.

I will also speculate that late born fawns have a poorer chance of survival especially in the north where extreme weather increases mortality Its interesting to think about food supply available for fawns born April vs late summer as well. April hits full spring green up followed by beans peas and summer crops where available. Great for mothers, easy meals and as the fawns are weaned good groceries. Late born fawns have to deal with the transition period between summer fall when things can be a bit weak. If no ag is available tougher sledding for mothers and when weaning for the fawns. Have a mast failure and problem is exasperated. However where small grains are available fawns are typically the first deer in the fields and stay the longest. Very valuable for their start in life.

My experience with body weights in all age classes is that we have shifted the entire bell curve producing heavier deer resultant from enhanced nutrition . Both the deer here on my farm as well as ranch are measurably heavier than the surrounding neighborhood. Regarding the correlation between acorns/fawn weight I wonder if those studies were done in areas where no ag was available? That correlation would make perfect sense if the primary fall food supply was acorns along with no ag during the summer or fall. Just curious.

The data from that military base had no commercial agriculture. There was an agronomy program specifically for wildlife during that time. Many of the landing zones were maintained in clover across the base in addition to acreage planted for wildlife specifically. Poor soils on most of the base. Regular controlled burns are conducted. The agronomist on base once described the base to me as having the capacity to support high numbers of small deer but not low numbers of larger deer. Some parts of the base do have better (Triassic) soils that support higher quality food. Deer in these training areas do have higher body weights than the base overall.

The same acorn correlation holds on my place which is much smaller scale. Again, there is limited if any row-crop commercial ag within about 3 miles of me. Most open land is pasture. My food plot program was in place for about 10 years. There was no statically significant increase in body weights. After some intense timber management (20 acres total of low quality hardwood clear-cuts and 100+ acres of commercial pine thinning both with controlled burns), we began to see small but clear upward trends in weights. There is still a significant year to year correlation between fawn weights and mast crops.

I've been thinking about all of this since you started the thread. Here are some current thoughts: If nutrition is the limiting factor for your deer (which may or may not be the case depending on location), increasing the quantity of quality food over a larger are will benefit deer herds to a measureable extent. I believe the conventional wisdom that a 3% acreage increase in quality foods will have a measureable impact and at 5% it will become significant and at some point beyond that one hits the law of diminishing returns.

However, I think food distribution is important as well. A deer will, by nature, have a significant home range. They will eat where they are. Granted, concentrated quality food (food plots) will cause deer to spend more time near them and to some extent reduce home range, but only to an extent. The traditional way to produce a food plot is high input (Seed, Lime, Fertilizer, Herbicide, Labor, Fuel, ...). The cost is relatively high and the food is concentrated. Once can distribute the food with small plots at a cost. One can also produce quality native food by timber management, controlled burns, etc... Typically this distributes the quantity of quality food over a larger area.

To my way of thinking, traditional food plots are a temporary high intensity way of introducing quality food and are not sustainable in the long run without some external source of funding. As you increase the acreage under production you increase the cost. To me using food plots in a strategic way to supplement an overall management plan and fill gaps, keep the costs down to a level that many folks can sustain, especially if offset by rotating timber sales. Using less intense non-traditional food plots (T&M, No-till, Min-till, weed tolerance, reduced herbicide, permaculture, ...) tip the scales further in the favor of sustainability. Lower input cost, including time, allow of increase acreage and contribute to quality food distribution over a larger area. Better nutrient cycling improves the soils to the "best they can be" for what they are in a long-term way.

Whether increasing the quantity of quality food is done through food plots, native foods, or a combination, if food is the limiting factor for your herd, it comes down to what methods work best in one's specific situation for the long haul.

Thanks,

Jack
 
What time period does acorn drop cover for you guys that have evidence that it can be correlated to body wts? Are you talking 1 month with acorns on the ground, 6wks, 2 months?
 
What time period does acorn drop cover for you guys that have evidence that it can be correlated to body wts? Are you talking 1 month with acorns on the ground, 6wks, 2 months?

In my area, it really depends on how heavy the mast crops is. We have a wide variety of oaks in our area. Our first drop usually occurs in September before acorns are ripe and falling on their own. I think in heavy mast crop years some trees shed acorns early but the primary cause is storms with high winds knocking them down. Acorns normally start falling on a regular basis in October during our archery season. It is not uncommon to sit in the stand and here one hit the ground every few seconds. Some trees might hold well into November or even longer depending on conditions. One of the largest and least preferred acorns here is the chestnut oak (not to be confused with swamp chestnut oak which are immediately sucked up by deer). On good acorn crops years you can find plenty of these rotting on the ground in the spring. On poor acorn crop years, they won't last long. In bountiful years, we can acorns on the ground for 6 months. It is a very important resource here. I'd say our average is probably 2 1/2 to 3 months. Deer densities come into play as to how long they are available as well.

There are a lot of factors that influence acorn production. I think most of our failure years occur when spring weather events preclude a lot of pollination.

Thanks,

Jack
 
In my area, it really depends on how heavy the mast crops is. We have a wide variety of oaks in our area. Our first drop usually occurs in September before acorns are ripe and falling on their own. I think in heavy mast crop years some trees shed acorns early but the primary cause is storms with high winds knocking them down. Acorns normally start falling on a regular basis in October during our archery season. It is not uncommon to sit in the stand and here one hit the ground every few seconds. Some trees might hold well into November or even longer depending on conditions. One of the largest and least preferred acorns here is the chestnut oak (not to be confused with swamp chestnut oak which are immediately sucked up by deer). On good acorn crops years you can find plenty of these rotting on the ground in the spring. On poor acorn crop years, they won't last long. In bountiful years, we can acorns on the ground for 6 months. It is a very important resource here. I'd say our average is probably 2 1/2 to 3 months. Deer densities come into play as to how long they are available as well.

There are a lot of factors that influence acorn production. I think most of our failure years occur when spring weather events preclude a lot of pollination.

Thanks,

Jack
Very different here. I wouldn't find a single acorn here if I looked for an hour. They are always gone by this time of year. We do have several species that drop at different times and prolongs the total timeframe, but nothing stays on the ground long. DCO's drop first, then Chinkapin, Burr, then lastly the Red/Pin oaks. The Reds are the least preferred but they still get eaten quickly. I'm guessing I've never seen acorn drop last more than 6 weeks total. That is significantly different than your 6 month span. I can certainly see how a 6 month supply of acorns could affect body wts.
 
Very different here. I wouldn't find a single acorn here if I looked for an hour. They are always gone by this time of year. We do have several species that drop at different times and prolongs the total timeframe, but nothing stays on the ground long. DCO's drop first, then Chinkapin, Burr, then lastly the Red/Pin oaks. The Reds are the least preferred but they still get eaten quickly. I'm guessing I've never seen acorn drop last more than 6 weeks total. That is significantly different than your 6 month span. I can certainly see how a 6 month supply of acorns could affect body wts.

Keep in mind that 6 months only occurs in near-record mast crop years. As I said, our average is probably 2 1/2 to 3 months. If we don't keep the population in check by shooting does, that period shortens.
 
Off topic, but since young bucks have come up - does anyone have knowledge or pics of how big yearling bucks can get in the wild? Talking weights and antler size. It's something I'm a little sketchy on. Always just assumed the good yearling bucks are the tiny, slender little 8 or 10 point racks, that just look like an obvious yearling. What I haven't figured out yet, is if there are a handful getting bigger than that. Baker, you surely must have some good insight into this.
It's a sliding scale. X = inches of antler

X = wild land w/no improvements
X + 10% = wild land/perennial clover plots
X + 22% = wild land/perennial clover plots w/interseeded barley
X + 39% = wild land/perennial clover plots w/interseeded barley and annual gypsum applications
 
It's a sliding scale. X = inches of antler

X = wild land w/no improvements
X + 10% = wild land/perennial clover plots
X + 22% = wild land/perennial clover plots w/interseeded barley
X + 39% = wild land/perennial clover plots w/interseeded barley and annual gypsum applications

Haha. Yeah, I get that. Last possible chance for a bump is a sanctuary for stress-free good times and a daily peck of acorns (substitute Acorn Crush if you lack oak trees) = X + 50%

I don't even know why I care. Just wonder if an exceptionally large yearling, like a an 8 point with a 13" spread, has a much greater chance of becoming a large framed deer than a 5" wide fork horn who has the same birthday and weighs the same. Or if by year 2 or 3, as Baker suggests, things get equalized.
 
It's a sliding scale. X = inches of antler

X = wild land w/no improvements
X + 10% = wild land/perennial clover plots
X + 22% = wild land/perennial clover plots w/interseeded barley
X + 39% = wild land/perennial clover plots w/interseeded barley and annual gypsum applications

175 posts into thread and finally the gratuitous gypsum reference........

bill
 
Just wonder if an exceptionally large yearling, like a an 8 point with a 13" spread, has a much greater chance of becoming a large framed deer than a 5" wide fork horn who has the same birthday and weighs the same.

It stands to reason that, all else being equal, a deer that is a few months older will produce slightly larger antlers than his younger counterpart, until they reach peak maturity.
 
Haha. Yeah, I get that. Last possible chance for a bump is a sanctuary for stress-free good times and a daily peck of acorns (substitute Acorn Crush if you lack oak trees) = X + 50%

I don't even know why I care. Just wonder if an exceptionally large yearling, like a an 8 point with a 13" spread, has a much greater chance of becoming a large framed deer than a 5" wide fork horn who has the same birthday and weighs the same. Or if by year 2 or 3, as Baker suggests, things get equalized.

I would say no. I think there are studies that demonstrate that first year rack is not a predictor of potential rack size.
 
Every deer has two parents that are passing on genetics bbut you never hear of anyone trying to improve the quality of the does. There has to be certain does that have better genes than others. Guy i talked to from mathews told me that he manages 9,000 acres for quality deer and they try to leave the biggest bodied does because they have bigger fawns and when those fawns are bucks they are always on the upper end of the trophy deer spectrum. They also have an extensive feeding program so the nutrition is as good as can be.
 
Top