I understand big bucks can consistently be grown on small acreage - but it has to be the right small acreage. But, the north side of my acreage is bordered by multiple small acreage - 10/20 acre - properties. Most have a corn feeder set up within 25 yards of my property line. Historically, over 80% of the 4.5 yr old bucks are killed that I have pictures of. While the hunters on my place pass a lot of legal deer - we have no real expectation that they will make it another year. Deer densities in my area are about 20 deer psm on average. I have found I will have a much greater density of bucks and larger bucks in direct relationship to how many deer I can attract as opposed to raise and produce them on my own land. I have about a deer per ten acres that use my land - sixty deer - with 1/3 of them bucks. No way could my land produce 20 bucks. It is a rare buck that I have a year to year picture history. Of the four bucks I have on camera that I consider mature “Shooter” bucks - I cant match any of them with last years pictures. Two of the bucks have been killed that I know of - one has been a no show after the first week of gun season, and the one I know is left is a wall mount waiting to happen. I know for a fact he is ranging over three miles. I know four other hunters who have him on camera. It would surprise me if he is still alive by the end of gun season. My 3.5 year old bucks have been thinned as well. I will recruit a new crop next year.
Food plots for feeding deer
- Thread starter Baker
- Start date
I understand big bucks can consistently be grown on small acreage - but it has to be the right small acreage. But, the north side of my acreage is bordered by multiple small acreage - 10/20 acre - properties. Most have a corn feeder set up within 25 yards of my property line. Historically, over 80% of the 4.5 yr old bucks are killed that I have pictures of. While the hunters on my place pass a lot of legal deer - we have no real expectation that they will make it another year. Deer densities in my area are about 20 deer psm on average. I have found I will have a much greater density of bucks and larger bucks in direct relationship to how many deer I can attract as opposed to raise and produce them on my own land. I have about a deer per ten acres that use my land - sixty deer - with 1/3 of them bucks. No way could my land produce 20 bucks. It is a rare buck that I have a year to year picture history. Of the four bucks I have on camera that I consider mature “Shooter” bucks - I cant match any of them with last years pictures. Two of the bucks have been killed that I know of - one has been a no show after the first week of gun season, and the one I know is left is a wall mount waiting to happen. I know for a fact he is ranging over three miles. I know four other hunters who have him on camera. It would surprise me if he is still alive by the end of gun season. My 3.5 year old bucks have been thinned as well. I will recruit a new crop next year.
in my mind, that is the number one reason why we are seeing an increase in numbers of larger bucks
Catscratch
5 year old buck +
And the advent of social media/horn porn. It's very easy now to display your trophy for the world to see in a matter of seconds. Wasn't to long ago that a trophy was seen by friends and family only, unless it made a magazine. Along with the ease of announcing trophies comes the urge to produce trophies for recognition. I say this in recognition that where I live it's generally recognized that our "good old day" are long gone. The mature buck population in KS is a shell of what it used to be. But someone from the outside watching media might not think so.
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SD51555
5 year old buck +
Most important ingredient is "live." I lived in Duluth for 5 years, and that is some of the most awful geologic matter on earth in terms of growing anything or calling it soil. It's all rock. Not even sand or gravel. R-O-K, rock.
Also home to some of the biggest damn deer in MN. Ask the cab and school bus drivers. Maybe MN is different. The deer can get big bodied up here, and where they're protected from hunting, whether by regulation or isolation, they can get damn damn big!
Great posts folks. I will always agree that age is your best friend . The number of 3 yr old and younger bucks that have made it into the B&C record books is very very small. And without argument a fully mature buck is mighty impressive on the hoof irrespective of antler size. Trophy buck becomes a relative term for most people and most places around the country. When I think of trophy I tend to think of 200" or bigger. And people all over the country are growing that size deer....especially if ag is present and the circumstances allow full maturity.
To deviate from the question of how much a deers diet is consumed from ag crops where available I thought it might be interesting to explore age a bit. Heres my experience. We all know that a buck generally reaches skeletal maturity at 4 and that antler growth is somewhat linear till that age. Most frequently the first big jump in antler size is seen between 3 and 4. From there though lots of things happen.In a healthy well balanced herd the 3 and 4 year olds are fighting their way into the breeding pool. This can have a significant effect on the following years antlers as injury or post rut recovery become an issue.....especially if there aren't easily obtained nutrition sources to help recovery [ read food plots ] . This can compromise the quality of the next years antlers. Lots of bucks go up or down or stay the same during the 'mid years 4-6.
Lots of times tine length is longest at 4 and bucks tend to be more symmetrical and clean. After 4 mass starts increasing, more kickers, drop tines ,forks etc start to express, some times for one year only. The frame tends to get bigger also. Around 6 though the bucks have become very efficient at the rut, perhaps even slowing down some and this trend carries on the rest of their life. Predictably, the following year antler growth can start to show a second significant jump. In many locales especially in the south a bucks best antlers occur at 6+ { I have a buck that at 4 was ~170" . He never got much bigger but last year was 16 and still had a giant frame with 28"+ main beams and a drop though only a 5 point...but a giant 5 pt ]
We frequently see bucks make a very large jump in antler size late in life, even at 10 yrs old or more. This results from the buck not as actively involved in the rut, thus never getting run down, so post rut recovery isn't an issue. We have watched this for years in the brush country and I am now starting to get enough statistical sampling to believe it true in the south as well. On my farm I think the sweet spot is 6-7 though I am just now starting to get enough bucks much older. The 170 " 6 pt with drop I posted a picture of in my property thread was at least 10 in La. { The discussion of aging patterns in bucks and antler growth is highly compromised because so few places anywhere have native herds where full life cycles are observed }
Now all this said these are trends. And if I have learned anything its that there are only trends and each buck can be unpredictable. Some stall at 4 and never get bigger. Some have the genetics to get giant late in life. I have seen bucks that would be culled as inferior make gigantic leaps in the following year. One thing seems consistent though. Age is your friend and intense nutrition is required to fully realize the genetic potential.
I could write more but its Friday night and my wife wants attention . Adios
To deviate from the question of how much a deers diet is consumed from ag crops where available I thought it might be interesting to explore age a bit. Heres my experience. We all know that a buck generally reaches skeletal maturity at 4 and that antler growth is somewhat linear till that age. Most frequently the first big jump in antler size is seen between 3 and 4. From there though lots of things happen.In a healthy well balanced herd the 3 and 4 year olds are fighting their way into the breeding pool. This can have a significant effect on the following years antlers as injury or post rut recovery become an issue.....especially if there aren't easily obtained nutrition sources to help recovery [ read food plots ] . This can compromise the quality of the next years antlers. Lots of bucks go up or down or stay the same during the 'mid years 4-6.
Lots of times tine length is longest at 4 and bucks tend to be more symmetrical and clean. After 4 mass starts increasing, more kickers, drop tines ,forks etc start to express, some times for one year only. The frame tends to get bigger also. Around 6 though the bucks have become very efficient at the rut, perhaps even slowing down some and this trend carries on the rest of their life. Predictably, the following year antler growth can start to show a second significant jump. In many locales especially in the south a bucks best antlers occur at 6+ { I have a buck that at 4 was ~170" . He never got much bigger but last year was 16 and still had a giant frame with 28"+ main beams and a drop though only a 5 point...but a giant 5 pt ]
We frequently see bucks make a very large jump in antler size late in life, even at 10 yrs old or more. This results from the buck not as actively involved in the rut, thus never getting run down, so post rut recovery isn't an issue. We have watched this for years in the brush country and I am now starting to get enough statistical sampling to believe it true in the south as well. On my farm I think the sweet spot is 6-7 though I am just now starting to get enough bucks much older. The 170 " 6 pt with drop I posted a picture of in my property thread was at least 10 in La. { The discussion of aging patterns in bucks and antler growth is highly compromised because so few places anywhere have native herds where full life cycles are observed }
Now all this said these are trends. And if I have learned anything its that there are only trends and each buck can be unpredictable. Some stall at 4 and never get bigger. Some have the genetics to get giant late in life. I have seen bucks that would be culled as inferior make gigantic leaps in the following year. One thing seems consistent though. Age is your friend and intense nutrition is required to fully realize the genetic potential.
I could write more but its Friday night and my wife wants attention . Adios
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
The worst of all fears is to humans.
Thanks for your fears Jack, I'm trying to shift CWD conversations over to the CWD thread.
ksgobbler
5 year old buck +
Nuke plant i worl at has zones and employees can get drawn for
Truth
Last edited:
Bill
Administrator
I agree. Let’s keep an interesting thread on track. Put the CWD stuff on the C W D thread.
I want in on this discussion but I’m going to bed at 8:00 to 10:00 and making coffee at 4:30 and like 25 days in....
Telemark
5 year old buck +
My experience with whitetails is that the majority of them will eat whatever you provide. If you have corn, they will eat your corn. If you have clover, they will eat your clover. But they eat other things too, no matter what is available. I have a habit of checking stomach contents, and in Holmes county, the deer I shoot seem to have on average about 50% corn and 50% green stuff, including a lot of fallen leaves. This experience is limited to October - January. No idea what they eat the rest of the year.
Red deer are a different story. They will spend all night in a hay field eating grass. They like apples and browse, but they can always be found out in the fields eating grass.
Red deer are a different story. They will spend all night in a hay field eating grass. They like apples and browse, but they can always be found out in the fields eating grass.
I notice my deer more frequently in my summer protein plots than my fall and winter plots. That is probably because they are less pressured that time of year and feel more comfortable out in the day time. I think deer are basically lazy, and foraging in a high protein food plot during dry times in the summer is easy pickings.
Catscratch
5 year old buck +
So give me feedback guys. Assuming mild winters and very little ag (80 acres of beans and 80 acres of corn in a several mile chunk of ground), what gets planted in plots to provide protein? How do you fill the gaps? I'm assuming the biggest gap is from late winter until beans emerge. This will be the recovery from winter stage and the start of antler growth.
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Have you ever used exclusion cages to measure utilization? Id be curious what you find if you looked at your small grain fields in late Feb or march after all acorns are gone and freezes have killed everything
Like many I plant small grains, radishes, clover---especially crimson or beseem for late winter--- and chicory. This fills the late winter gap here on my farm. Once acorns play out and temps get cold utilization increases significantly. Carbohydrates for energy may be more important at this time of year than protein
BenAllgood
5 year old buck +
I believe deer are going to go for the highest preferred food that requires the least expenditure of energy coupled with the least stress (social or predatory). If those factors can be made to favor ag or foodplots, that is where they'll receive the bulk of their nutrition.
Catscratch
5 year old buck +
Check... I plant chicory and clovers, never crimson or berseem though. Ill have to research those varieties. I left radishes out this yr as deer never eat the tubers on my place (but they do love the tops early fall). Acorns are always gone before winter even gets cold. I'm going to have to put some serious thought into researching my gaps and planning some intervention. I've always been big on a healthy and diverse population of native plants providing the nutrition that the deer need. I feel foolish trying to outthink mother nature and her adaptations. But... our neighbors have been hitting all of their pasture the last couple of years ariely with cropduster killing anything that isn't grass. My fear now is that without native forbs the local deer are going to suffer.
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SD51555
5 year old buck +
Think:
Starts early: rye/wheat/native browse
Regenerates itself: clover/chicory
Stands late: Oats/barley/brassicas/native browse
If you don't get deep snow and you have enough forest to do it, I'd just feed tree tops once your fall forage is gone. Drop "x" number of trees, see how long they last, keep dropping until spring happens. I might even try a BMR grazing sorghum if they're blowing up your WGF early.
I have used exclusion cages in winter and typically my food plots are eaten to the ground - but, typically my winter plots dont produce nearly the same amount of biomass as my summer plots
Catscratch
5 year old buck +
Wheat, rye, clovers, chicory, and a major effort to provide native browse is being done. Not enough trees to top them willy nelly, but I do have a rotation of Osage Orange that I coppice. OO is a great tree for deer and no matter how many times I cut it down it always springs back up from root. I like to keep it at deer level. The grazing sorghum is on my list, you've seen what they do to your WGF!
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
I notice the same thing. I chalk it up to several factors. First, summer is the stress period here, so there is a much larger differential between the availability of quality native foods and what my plots offer. Second, I've always used vertical cover in my summer plots. When I planted soybeans, I always included a small amount of corn with them; just enough to provide that vertical cover. Lately I've been using sunn hemp as a component. Often mixes will include milo or sunflowers which all help. In addition to that, does are recovering from fawning and bucks are growing antlers both of which place higher nutrition demands on them tipping the balance between food and security a bit more toward food. At the same time, that vertical cover is improving their feeling of security. Of course, there is no hunting pressure during the summer. Deer seem to react much differently to me working in the field around equipment than they do when hunting. I think it is the same way prey can sense when a predator is loafing verses hunting. When a predator makes his presence known through noise, sweat, or visually like we do when working in the field, deer know where we are and are not surprised by sudden noise, scent, or movement. They keep their distance to some extent, but seem to be quite comfortable. I don't find the same when I concealing myself while hunting and get detected by deer. So, less pressure is a factor here too.
In the fall, my cover crops typically don't contain a vertical component. It depends from year to year what I'm doing whether there will be vertical cover. This year, I mowed and planted entire fields with cover crop. A drought and mast crop failure led to heavy deer use so both cover crop and clover fields look like a golf course. I'm just learning how sunn hemp performs on my place. This year I left one field stand and it has held up well in the fall. Next year, I plan to bushhog strips through my sunn hemp similar to corn and beans (http://www.habitat-talk.com/index.p...d-corn-field-transfered-from-qdma-forum.5543/). This should give me the vertical cover in the fall.
However, even when I was doing the designer corn and beans fall plant, deer still used my summer plots more. This is largely because native foods are king here in the fall. When we get a heavy acorn crop deer completely abandon food plots. They get near zero daytime use when acorns are abundant and much lighter night time use.
I find that in general quality food-in-cover gets the most use here. This can be native or planted. The problem with food-in-cover, is that deer can become very hard to hunt. They can bed where they eat and they react much more quickly to even light hunting pressure. To my way of thinking, having the right balance between quality native foods in cover and planted quality foods with enough cover to make deer feel comfortable but not so much as to make them completely disappear is a good target.
Thanks,
Jack
Jack, in the spirit of full disclosure my experience and strategies are very similar. Summer plantings of sunn hemp, cow peas, soy beans, along with other things I'm always experimenting with receive heavy pressure from the time they are planted till terminated. The vertical component provides several values including concealment as well as trellises for the peas to climb. Deer are in the fields all day and night and are less wary than in the fall. I tend to think that is more hormonal but the outcome is the same. When we plant fall plots it is just about the time acorns start to fall. Early utilization is light and intermittent. Does and fawns are always present and during the rut bucks pass thru for obvious reasons. We shoot almost all of our bucks in the fields.Once the rut is over hardly anything is seen in the fields other than a few does and fawns. The fawns are there constantly which I think is a good thing. However later in the winter when the acorns diminish and hard weather arrives, deer start coming back to the fields. They pour out late and stay all night. Exclosures show heavy grazing. Crimson clover especially will be grazed heavily till April green up . Shortly thereafter we begin the summer plantings and the cycle repeats. All this adds up to significant utilization throughout much of the year.
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