Food plots for feeding deer

Feeders that broadcast have to be much better than one community pile. Looks like maybe they should ban all types of mineral sources also---that is like a room full of people taking a lick off a lolly pop and passing it around. Our dnr is a very political group that isn't doing a good job now and hasn't for a very long time. Don't put too much stock in following or believing what they tell the public. SD said it correctly above.

I don't have any insight into your DNR. Our game department is very good, but politics are involve to some degree in most all public policy. Rather that saying broadcast feeders are better, I'd put it more in terms of point source food piles or mineral licks are worse since they are both present significant risk, one possibly more than the other.
 
How long in an adequately stocked food plot does a deer have to feed to be completely full? And how many times a day does a deer fill its belly. Right now, I notice at my place that the deer I see in morning or mid day will come into a food plot and feed across it and may exit out the other side. The deer that arrive in the evening - often the same deer I saw early in the day, commonly stay and feed for 45 min or an hour. Surely they get full in that amount of time. I have cleaned deer this year that were killed in a food plot in the morning with all matter of material in their stomach. I have cleaned deer killed in a food plot that had a stomach about to bust with nothing but clover from the food plot. I think the deer in my area do a lot of wandering around, nibbling on a variety of food sources - but I also think they commonly hit a food plot for at least one big binge feeding at sometime during the day or night

I can only offer a "for instance." I've read that a deer can fill its stomach in one to two hours of continuous feeding. Seems to me that's plenty of time for a grazing ruminant! Here's the thing. Being a ruminant, a deer doesn't need to do much chewing. Rip it and down it goes. The objective is to fill the first compartment of four-part stomach. Being full, a deer will then go find a place to hide where they can chew their cud and finish the digestion process.

How much food? Ruminants will need dry matter in the amount of 2% to 5% of their body weight daily. Lactating does and rut recovering bucks are at the upper end. But, if we stick at the low end, a 100 lb deer needs 2 pounds of dry matter. Clover growing in a field is about 85% water. So, in round numbers, that deer standing out there is going to need around 15 lbs of your clover as consumed.

Can that happen in one feeding? That I'm not sure about, but I doubt it. I keep changing my examples, but I don't know how else to get there. Let's assume (until we find out different) that there's space in the first compartment for 10 lbs. That's about one cubic foot of space. It's a good start, but it probably doesn't fulfill the daily requirement. At the other end it would seem multiple daily feeding - or continuous feeding - is necessary.
 
Just back from the ranch where we celebrated a birthday party for my sister, cousin , and Aunt...70-80-and 90 respectively. Big fun spending time in some of the most wildlife rich country in North America. Can we all agree that spending time with family and friends together in nature is good stuff?

I started this thread to propose the idea that where available planted crops can provide a material portion of a deers diet on an annualized basis. Is it 30%? 40% 50% More? I don't know. But I believe there is abundant evidence that planted crops provide far more than a fraction of a deers diet and have a material impact on the nutritional plane and carrying capacity of the habitat. We , in our unique situations, have to decide if its worth it.

From this central intention, considerations pro and con have been explored with one idea that seems to me worth examining a bit more. Jack [ I promise I'm not picking on you but you have worked your positions harder than anyone else ] has proposed that scale and cost are major impediments to crops achieving any meaningful impact dietarily.

His quote:

I completely agree, that if one has an unlimited budget and sufficient land for scale, we can do a lot of manipulation to benefit deer whether it is food plots or native habitat management. My contention that an unlimited budget is a rare exception not the rule. Given that, food plot scale is limited and they represent a small fraction of a deer's diet. So, for most of us, food plots will be a strategic tool applied in the 10's of acres at most. Timber management on the other hand can commonly be done on the 100's acres scale providing profit and the necessary resources for food plots while positively impacting the quantity of quality native foods via sunlight.

I would rephrase you statement a bit. I'd say that food plots can only provide a LARGE fraction of a deer's diet if a huge budget is available and they are planted on a very large scale like agriculture.

I have a couple of thoughts. First scale for managing a herd of deer is a different subject than scale for effectively feeding deer. I completely agree it takes AT LEAST 1000 acres to manage a deer herd and in most cases much more. However it doesn't take a lot of food plot acreage to feed a reasonable number of deer. Most biologist I know suggest that an acre of food plot can feed about 5 deer while it takes about 20-30 acres of well managed woodland to support 1 deer. Arguable ratios but a starting point. Lets look at a hypothetical 1000 acres as well as the costs involved in planting year round food plots.

If we plant 5% in plots thats 50 acres which could support about 250 deer. The remaining 950 acres beyond cover and security would provide food for about 48 deer. manipulate that back and forth as you like but 1000 acres with modest acreage in year round food plots will support a lot more deer than without food plots. But what about cost?

I went to Hancock Seed Company and looked at cost for 4 cultivars that can create year round forage in the south {There are similar strategies for the north } : wheat- I used my own source and can get 50lbs for under $20, radishes- $96 per 50 lbs, crimson clover- $72 per 50 lbs, and soybeans- $31 per 50 lbs. Personally I can get all these seeds cheaper but this is a starting point. So to plant 1 acre of year round food plot the cost and process looks like this:

wheat; 50 lbs/acre costing $20, radishes [ unnecessary but relished ] 3 lbs acre costing ~$6 crimson @ 15 lbs acre costing $21 . Thus a fall acre of food plot ~ $47. Appreciate the crimson will re seed itself for years thus that cost can be amortized over multiple years but I will stay with upfront cost. The crimson is done late April as a food source and that is when you can begin to plant the soybeans directly into the same field. Multiple ways to do that. One acre of soybeans @ 35 lbs/acre cost ~$ 21 acre for seed and will be available from May till August as a plant and the seed as forage longer. Around Sept-October you plant the same small grains and radishes back to the soybeans [ Crimson unnecessary cause it re seeds ] and the process repeats itself . There are multiple other ways to accomplish the same approach-----small grain, radish, clover rotations for example that may even cost less. Nonetheless that combo provides high quality forage almost all year!

Total seed cost of that one acre-$68. Add fuel, herbicide and fertilizer { I no longer use fertilizer and herbicides only sparingly } as necessary as a variable cost and round up from there. I'm not adding time as candidly there are few things I would rather do ....this is a forum for folks that like habitat work right? So what is a realistic cost? $75/acre ? A bit more? All for a year round food source that could feed 5/deer acre. Multiply that time 10 acres---$750 to feed 50 deer vs one deer per 20 acres. Or $3750 to plant the hypothetical 50 acres in the hypothetical 1000 acre management unit.

I appreciate different folks have different approaches. My only point is to show realistic costs and scale to provide food sources that can become have a material impact....I'm getting the popcorn to see where the show goes from here.
 
Just back from the ranch where we celebrated a birthday party for my sister, cousin , and Aunt...70-80-and 90 respectively. Big fun spending time in some of the most wildlife rich country in North America. Can we all agree that spending time with family and friends together in nature is good stuff?

I started this thread to propose the idea that where available planted crops can provide a material portion of a deers diet on an annualized basis. Is it 30%? 40% 50% More? I don't know. But I believe there is abundant evidence that planted crops provide far more than a fraction of a deers diet and have a material impact on the nutritional plane and carrying capacity of the habitat. We , in our unique situations, have to decide if its worth it.

From this central intention, considerations pro and con have been explored with one idea that seems to me worth examining a bit more. Jack [ I promise I'm not picking on you but you have worked your positions harder than anyone else ] has proposed that scale and cost are major impediments to crops achieving any meaningful impact dietarily.

His quote:



I have a couple of thoughts. First scale for managing a herd of deer is a different subject than scale for effectively feeding deer. I completely agree it takes AT LEAST 1000 acres to manage a deer herd and in most cases much more. However it doesn't take a lot of food plot acreage to feed a reasonable number of deer. Most biologist I know suggest that an acre of food plot can feed about 5 deer while it takes about 20-30 acres of well managed woodland to support 1 deer. Arguable ratios but a starting point. Lets look at a hypothetical 1000 acres as well as the costs involved in planting year round food plots.

If we plant 5% in plots thats 50 acres which could support about 250 deer. The remaining 950 acres beyond cover and security would provide food for about 48 deer. manipulate that back and forth as you like but 1000 acres with modest acreage in year round food plots will support a lot more deer than without food plots. But what about cost?

I went to Hancock Seed Company and looked at cost for 4 cultivars that can create year round forage in the south {There are similar strategies for the north } : wheat- I used my own source and can get 50lbs for under $20, radishes- $96 per 50 lbs, crimson clover- $72 per 50 lbs, and soybeans- $31 per 50 lbs. Personally I can get all these seeds cheaper but this is a starting point. So to plant 1 acre of year round food plot the cost and process looks like this:

wheat; 50 lbs/acre costing $20, radishes [ unnecessary but relished ] 3 lbs acre costing ~$6 crimson @ 15 lbs acre costing $21 . Thus a fall acre of food plot ~ $47. Appreciate the crimson will re seed itself for years thus that cost can be amortized over multiple years but I will stay with upfront cost. The crimson is done late April as a food source and that is when you can begin to plant the soybeans directly into the same field. Multiple ways to do that. One acre of soybeans @ 35 lbs/acre cost ~$ 21 acre for seed and will be available from May till August as a plant and the seed as forage longer. Around Sept-October you plant the same small grains and radishes back to the soybeans [ Crimson unnecessary cause it re seeds ] and the process repeats itself . There are multiple other ways to accomplish the same approach-----small grain, radish, clover rotations for example that may even cost less. Nonetheless that combo provides high quality forage almost all year!

Total seed cost of that one acre-$68. Add fuel, herbicide and fertilizer { I no longer use fertilizer and herbicides only sparingly } as necessary as a variable cost and round up from there. I'm not adding time as candidly there are few things I would rather do ....this is a forum for folks that like habitat work right? So what is a realistic cost? $75/acre ? A bit more? All for a year round food source that could feed 5/deer acre. Multiply that time 10 acres---$750 to feed 50 deer vs one deer per 20 acres. Or $3750 to plant the hypothetical 50 acres in the hypothetical 1000 acre management unit.

I appreciate different folks have different approaches. My only point is to show realistic costs and scale to provide food sources that can become have a material impact....I'm getting the popcorn to see where the show goes from here.

Yes, I think if you convert 3% to quality foods, you can see a measurable impact on the herd as defined by weight and antler measurements. At 5%, that impact becomes significant. Beyond 5%, you begin to hit the law of diminishing returns.

No argument here on that. However, how many deer is that acreage supporting? That really depends on your area and overall habitat management. I would contend that in my area, even at 3% I have plenty of food left in the fields after the stress period is over. If the food does not end up in the belly of a deer, it is not contributing. Now here is the real question? Does the food that is eaten comprise a high percentage of a small number of deer's diet or does it comprise a smaller percentage of the diet of a larger number of deer?

Also, the 3% or 5% presume you are moving from low quality food to high quality food. So, if I convert low quality hardwood browse to a food plot, I'm doing just that. On the other hand, if I clear-cut and burn, I'm also converting from low quality food to high quality food without a food plot.

A food plot concentrates high quality food. How many deer use the plot will be limited by social structure and other habitat considerations.

As for your estimates, they are probably low end for supplies, and completely ignore labor. We probably spend about that with about 20 acres of total food plots. I still contend that my deer eat significantly more native foods in the course of a year than they eat from my food plots. That does not mean I don't believe my food plots are making a significant contribution.

All of our strategies will be different depending on our situation.

Thanks,

Jack
 
Now here is the real question? Does the food that is eaten comprise a high percentage of a small number of deer's diet or does it comprise a smaller percentage of the diet of a larger number of deer?
Is there a third option? Does that food comprise a material percentage of the diet of all the deer in the area?
 
Is there a third option? Does that food comprise a material percentage of the diet of all the deer in the area?

And I think that requires the food to be more distributed which gets us back to managing a large area. I think the food can supplement the diet of deer in the area making the limiting nutrition factor being the underlying fertility of the soils in the area. In other words, we can make the deer the best that can be for our area. I can improve the weights and antler size to the best they can be in my area, but my deer will never be the size of deer in the farming belt of the mid-west. We can certainly improve the health of our deer and food plots can be a part of that. We all have to figure out what the most efficient and effective solution is for our situations. Here, I get much more bang for the buck out of larger scale timber management where the impact is measured in hundreds of acres of quality food availability and generate income. Food plots are still important here to fill the temporal gaps nature leaves, but the impact is measured in 10s of acres at a significant cost. In other area, say where timber is not available, other strategies may be more effective.

Thanks,

Jack
 
Only slightly better. Not the same as a corn field. Deer are distributed over a much wider area than a feeder. CWD is not a nose-to-nose specific transfer vector like some diseases. We don't have a full understanding of the vectors but clearly concentrations of deer increase transfer possibilities. I'd avoid it all together as a best practice. Supplemental feeding is completely outlawed in CWD areas in our state all year long.

The MN strain is vastly different from the strains found around the rest of the deer range. The MN604 strain (along with MN645 and MN655) can cross the species barrier, leach into groundwater and infect humans, infect sanitation workers directly, be taken up and transported in hay and grains, pass through livestock and on to humans, persist in blood/urine/saliva/feces/fur/hooves/bones/teeth, risks meat processing workers, and cross contaminates other meats in that shop. MN is quickly shutting down due to MN604. Soon as the Chinese catch up to this news, there won't be a bale of hay or bushel of grain moved outside MN.

Think about that for a minute. Every dairy product, pork product, beef product, poultry product. Everything fried in oil, potato chips, french fries, fish. Anything with HFC in it. Any Iowa grown seafood fed soybean meal from mankato. Every product that contains corn or wheat has it. That cat is outta the bag.
 
How long in an adequately stocked food plot does a deer have to feed to be completely full? And how many times a day does a deer fill its belly. Right now, I notice at my place that the deer I see in morning or mid day will come into a food plot and feed across it and may exit out the other side. The deer that arrive in the evening - often the same deer I saw early in the day, commonly stay and feed for 45 min or an hour. Surely they get full in that amount of time. I have cleaned deer this year that were killed in a food plot in the morning with all matter of material in their stomach. I have cleaned deer killed in a food plot that had a stomach about to bust with nothing but clover from the food plot. I think the deer in my area do a lot of wandering around, nibbling on a variety of food sources - but I also think they commonly hit a food plot for at least one big binge feeding at sometime during the day or night
Typically, a deer will feed 5 times within 24 hours. However, they feed on different things to satisfy their diet needs throughout that 24 hour period.
 
The MN strain is vastly different from the strains found around the rest of the deer range. The MN604 strain (along with MN645 and MN655) can cross the species barrier, leach into groundwater and infect humans, infect sanitation workers directly, be taken up and transported in hay and grains, pass through livestock and on to humans, persist in blood/urine/saliva/feces/fur/hooves/bones/teeth, risks meat processing workers, and cross contaminates other meats in that shop. MN is quickly shutting down due to MN604. Soon as the Chinese catch up to this news, there won't be a bale of hay or bushel of grain moved outside MN.

Can you post a link to where you found this? I haven't seen any proof of infecting humans so this is pretty scary.
 
The MN strain is vastly different from the strains found around the rest of the deer range. The MN604 strain (along with MN645 and MN655) can cross the species barrier, leach into groundwater and infect humans, infect sanitation workers directly, be taken up and transported in hay and grains, pass through livestock and on to humans, persist in blood/urine/saliva/feces/fur/hooves/bones/teeth, risks meat processing workers, and cross contaminates other meats in that shop. MN is quickly shutting down due to MN604. Soon as the Chinese catch up to this news, there won't be a bale of hay or bushel of grain moved outside MN.

Can you post a link to where you found this? I haven't seen any proof of infecting humans so this is pretty scary.

You bet. When the money starts fleeing, you know it’s the real deal.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.tw...over-deer-carcass-disposal-in-some-areas/amp/


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wa...ng-could-it-strike-people-too/?outputType=amp


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
The MN strain is vastly different from the strains found around the rest of the deer range. The MN604 strain (along with MN645 and MN655) can cross the species barrier, leach into groundwater and infect humans, infect sanitation workers directly, be taken up and transported in hay and grains, pass through livestock and on to humans, persist in blood/urine/saliva/feces/fur/hooves/bones/teeth, risks meat processing workers, and cross contaminates other meats in that shop. MN is quickly shutting down due to MN604. Soon as the Chinese catch up to this news, there won't be a bale of hay or bushel of grain moved outside MN.

Think about that for a minute. Every dairy product, pork product, beef product, poultry product. Everything fried in oil, potato chips, french fries, fish. Anything with HFC in it. Any Iowa grown seafood fed soybean meal from mankato. Every product that contains corn or wheat has it. That cat is outta the bag.

That is extremely scary. I had not heard there was any evidence showing it crossing the species barrier. That is the worst of all worlds! Can you point us to a reference?

P.S. - I did not see any thing in the links you posted above after wrote this that indicate any strain of CWD has been shown to jump the species barrier. That is what I'd like to see a study link to.

Thanks,

Jack
 
Feeders that broadcast have to be much better than one community pile. Looks like maybe they should ban all types of mineral sources also---that is like a room full of people taking a lick off a lolly pop and passing it around. Our dnr is a very political group that isn't doing a good job now and hasn't for a very long time. Don't put too much stock in following or believing what they tell the public. SD said it correctly above.
In the CWD zone that I am in it is illegal to feed, use mineral, and use any urine based scent.
 
The MN strain is vastly different from the strains found around the rest of the deer range. The MN604 strain (along with MN645 and MN655) can cross the species barrier, leach into groundwater and infect humans, infect sanitation workers directly, be taken up and transported in hay and grains, pass through livestock and on to humans, persist in blood/urine/saliva/feces/fur/hooves/bones/teeth, risks meat processing workers, and cross contaminates other meats in that shop. MN is quickly shutting down due to MN604. Soon as the Chinese catch up to this news, there won't be a bale of hay or bushel of grain moved outside MN.

Think about that for a minute. Every dairy product, pork product, beef product, poultry product. Everything fried in oil, potato chips, french fries, fish. Anything with HFC in it. Any Iowa grown seafood fed soybean meal from mankato. Every product that contains corn or wheat has it. That cat is outta the bag.

That is extremely scary. I had not heard there was any evidence showing it crossing the species barrier. That is the worst of all worlds! Can you point us to a reference?

Thanks,

Jack

Here you go.

https://www.drovers.com/article/chronic-wasting-disease-time-bomb-agriculture

What happens when China starts crossing out states and counties that have CWD, effectively banning Ag exports from the whitetail range?


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My worst nightmare, a thread designed to discuss the impact of food plots has devolved into a discussion about CWD. Ugh!
 
I think the food can supplement the diet of deer in the area making the limiting nutrition factor being the underlying fertility of the soils in the area. In other words, we can make the deer the best that can be for our area. I can improve the weights and antler size to the best they can be in my area, but my deer will never be the size of deer in the farming belt of the mid-west.
I think this might be where our experiences conflict. Deer are being grown in poor soils competitive with the mid west. I, personally, on my own farm in crappy soils of central La. am growing native deer competitive with weights and antler quality of the mid west. There are properties all over the south with similar results. Does age matter? Of course. But enhanced nutrition raises the level of all age classes.
 
I think this might be where our experiences conflict. Deer are being grown in poor soils competitive with the mid west. I, personally, on my own farm in crappy soils of central La. am growing native deer competitive with weights and antler quality of the mid west. There are properties all over the south with similar results. Does age matter? Of course. But enhanced nutrition raises the level of all age classes.
That's what I believe too. If you raise the nutritional plane of deer, then let them get to the older age classes, anyone, anywhere can grow deer that will rival the Midwest. A few guys on this forum do it consistently. And, there's plenty more that do it who aren't on forums.
 
So with this train of thought... the deer living on good soils (midwest) have had many generations to turn on all their epigenetics and are privy to a very diverse and massive plant community for nutrition. Deer living on depleted soils have adapted to less nutrition, but those adaptations can be reverse with intensive plotting and age structure. So is it worthwhile for a midwestern to expect good results with plotting, or will his efforts seem insignificant while a person with low quality soils see's big jumps in wts and antlers? In my mind we are back to different regions having different expectations and results. I can almost guarantee that the deer on my place have a somewhat low carrying capacity due to lack of cover instead of lack of nutrition. There's plenty of acres but not a lot of acres that hold deer in close proximity to each other. They tend to spread apart naturally and keep numbers low on their own.
 
So with this train of thought... the deer living on good soils (midwest) have had many generations to turn on all their epigenetics and are privy to a very diverse and massive plant community for nutrition. Deer living on depleted soils have adapted to less nutrition, but those adaptations can be reverse with intensive plotting and age structure. So is it worthwhile for a midwestern to expect good results with plotting, or will his efforts seem insignificant while a person with low quality soils see's big jumps in wts and antlers? In my mind we are back to different regions having different expectations and results. I can almost guarantee that the deer on my place have a somewhat low carrying capacity due to lack of cover instead of lack of nutrition. There's plenty of acres but not a lot of acres that hold deer in close proximity to each other. They tend to spread apart naturally and keep numbers low on their own.

I wonder how many mid west trophy deer come from areas of ag or intensive food plotting? Most I would suspect. I also think the biggest jumps you are seeing in trophy deer from poor soils are happening in areas where folks have been growing crops for deer for decades now. Thus you are seeing the epigenetic response resulting from the enhanced nutrition over time. Then age allows the genetic response to be fully realized
 
I can tell you that 180-210 inch deer have been being harvested locally long before I knew of anyone planting a plot. You would have been crazy to plant land (land that could have been planted) into something that doesn't produce a cash crop. Of course farming was dirtier then. We called our old Allis-Chalmers combine the "silver seeder" as it seemed to dump as much seed back on the ground as it kept. The KS deer of the 80's were grown from ag and native vegetation. Even now, I hunt some spots that are miles from the nearest ag fields. Nothing but prairies and a few creek bottoms with some woody browse and an oak tree or two. There are some pretty nice deer in those spots...
 
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