Tolerating weeds

[Mortenson]

JFK52's case is very cut and dried. He wants the most bean pods possible to help his animals get through winter. Weeds are a detriment to that plan. I don't really think he needs any evolution. Just my opinion.

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

JFK52's case is very cut and dried. He wants the most bean pods possible to help his animals get through winter. Weeds are a detriment to that plan. I don't really think he needs any evolution. Just my opinion.

Not pointing fingers just want this to be taken with a grain of salt.

And his deer don’t need plots to get through winter.


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[yoderjac]

JFK52's case is very cut and dried. He wants the most bean pods possible to help his animals get through winter. Weeds are a detriment to that plan. I don't really think he needs any evolution. Just my opinion.

Not specifically to JFK52's case, but it is the point I was making in post #12: Regional differences and objectives are a factor in determining when weeds are best controlled and when they are best tolerated. Keep in mind, you don't need the "most" bean pods to help animals get through the winter, you just need enough so that there are some left until spring. There is also something to be said for food distribution. Two acres that contain as much planted food as a single acre can also be an advantage. Higher concentrations of attractive food also tend to concentrate deer. This can make hunting by predators easier as well. One study showed that poor fawning habitat had better fawning success than poor fawning habitat with long narrow strips of good fawning habitat. It turned out hat all the does were predisposed to fawning in the good habitat which made predation by coyotes on fawn much more successful. In the poor fawning habitat without the long narrow strips of good fawning habitat, fawns were much more distributed and harder to hunt. I'm not suggesting what JFK should do, but simply providing considerations.

My thinking has evolved from a very simple "more is better" to beginning to understand that there are many factors at play including sustainability, distribution, scale, and complex interrelationships.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[JFK52]

I have deer from all around that yard on or near my land. I have counted 40+ deer on my food plots during the winter. My 14 acres of corn and soy bean food plots were totally gone by the end of January two years ago.

I have to deal with a Wisconsin winter that has sub zero temperatures and feet of snow cover. My objective is to get the deer through these conditions in the best possible shape. This requires the greatest amount of food that my plots can produce.

This year there were four major snow events in APRIL. All the surrounding ag farm fields are picked by the beginning of winter. No one else in the square mile surrounding my land does anything food plot wise to help the deer overwinter. The Wisconsin DNR has rules forbidding feeding deer year round. Natural food is all but non existent. If the deer are browsing my white pines, they are in starvation mode.

So my perspective is different than land owners that do not have to face these harsh weather conditions during winter.

 

[SwampCat]

I agree - it is all about your specific area and what your goals are. I live in the south and my deer will not perish without my food plots. However, if I dont have food plots - I would have 20% of the deer on my place. Our deer season runs until the end of Feb. The more easy food we have available - the more deer we have to hunt - it is as simple as that. It is much easier for me to plant 20 acres and keep it halfway clean and produce a lot of food than pay to clean off 20 more acres, plant forty, and let the weeds have there way is not something that fits with my time and finances. I have an acquaintance who plants twenty acres and will have food left over next spring. His land does not have a high deer density. He could let weeds have his planting and it wouldnt make a difference. He could plant half his plots and maintain some weed control and be ahead. We all have different dynamics affecting our properties and most have different goals. If I had a single one acre food plot - I wouldnt want a weed in my plot. If I had a lot of food plot acreage or had a higher deer density and had deer pretty much anyway - I wouldnt care about the weeds so much.

 

[yoderjac]

I agree - it is all about your specific area and what your goals are. I live in the south and my deer will not perish without my food plots. However, if I dont have food plots - I would have 20% of the deer on my place. Our deer season runs until the end of Feb. The more easy food we have available - the more deer we have to hunt - it is as simple as that. It is much easier for me to plant 20 acres and keep it halfway clean and produce a lot of food than pay to clean off 20 more acres, plant forty, and let the weeds have there way is not something that fits with my time and finances. I have an acquaintance who plants twenty acres and will have food left over next spring. His land does not have a high deer density. He could let weeds have his planting and it wouldnt make a difference. He could plant half his plots and maintain some weed control and be ahead. We all have different dynamics affecting our properties and most have different goals. If I had a single one acre food plot - I wouldnt want a weed in my plot. If I had a lot of food plot acreage or had a higher deer density and had deer pretty much anyway - I wouldnt care about the weeds so much.

Yep, it is all about the particulars of the situation. More deer isn't always better. I've operated in areas where deer were so overpopulated that necropsy studies showed significant health issues. In the area where our pine farm is located we had too many deer given the habitat when we started. We had almost an emergency response with a significant food plot program and we shot every antlerless we saw unless we were certain it was a button. Over time we began slower but larger scale habitat improvement primarily timber management. We had to bring the population in line with the carrying capacity and then begin to increase the carrying capacity. We did end up with one population crash when a confluence of negative events hit our herd, but they have bounced back to a healthy level and it gave our habitat time to heal.

Recently we have changed focus to a longer-term sustainability approach. In our case, the underlying soil fertility is probably the long-term limiting factor. In other cases, weather may be a bigger factor. In all cases, you've got to figure out what you have to work with and what approaches will have the most positive long-term effect. Approaches change and evolve over time as we impact the habitat and herd.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Boll Weevil]

If I had a lot of food plot acreage or had a higher deer density and had deer pretty much anyway - I wouldnt care about the weeds so much.

This ^

I've become MUCH more tolerant of weeds in plots as I've added acreage, opened up new/additional commercial rowcrop ground, and balanced sex ratio/reduced the number of mouths to feed. Input management (time, fuel, chemical, seed) vs. output/value has become a focus for me.

As well, manipulation of native foods has been a huge focus. If I can lightly strip disk a 1/2 mile long field edge in April to encourage pokeweed and other "junk" (that deer in my neighborhood absolutely pound) rather than work to establish a clover edge (that gets damaged or terminated by herbicide drift during burndown)...no brainer for me.

If they'd rather eat free ragweed than $5 a pound clover or chicory...let''em.

 

[SwampCat]

Yep, it is all about the particulars of the situation. More deer isn't always better. I've operated in areas where deer were so overpopulated that necropsy studies showed significant health issues. In the area where our pine farm is located we had too many deer given the habitat when we started. We had almost an emergency response with a significant food plot program and we shot every antlerless we saw unless we were certain it was a button. Over time we began slower but larger scale habitat improvement primarily timber management. We had to bring the population in line with the carrying capacity and then begin to increase the carrying capacity. We did end up with one population crash when a confluence of negative events hit our herd, but they have bounced back to a healthy level and it gave our habitat time to heal.

Recently we have changed focus to a longer-term sustainability approach. In our case, the underlying soil fertility is probably the long-term limiting factor. In other cases, weather may be a bigger factor. In all cases, you've got to figure out what you have to work with and what approaches will have the most positive long-term effect. Approaches change and evolve over time as we impact the habitat and herd.

Thanks,

Jack

No doubt, an extreme overpopulation can be much worse - especially health wise. But not talking extremes here - even with realistic numbers for your environment, hunters have differing opinions. My group of hunters likes to see a good many deer with at least a chance of a 125” deer in the neighborhood. I know other folks who care nothing about seeing numbers of deer - they are all about that one in hundred big buck - and would reduce their herd down intentionally to theoretically allow more food for the few remaining deer to grow larger.

I think my area could - and has - safely supported at least 40 deer per square mile - but we are probably at 20. From my experience, as an individual landowner, it is much easier to reduce the herd in situations like this than grow it.

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

I have deer from all around that yard on or near my land. I have counted 40+ deer on my food plots during the winter. My 14 acres of corn and soy bean food plots were totally gone by the end of January two years ago.

I have to deal with a Wisconsin winter that has sub zero temperatures and feet of snow cover. My objective is to get the deer through these conditions in the best possible shape. This requires the greatest amount of food that my plots can produce.

This year there were four major snow events in APRIL. All the surrounding ag farm fields are picked by the beginning of winter. No one else in the square mile surrounding my land does anything food plot wise to help the deer overwinter. The Wisconsin DNR has rules forbidding feeding deer year round. Natural food is all but non existent. If the deer are browsing my white pines, they are in starvation mode.

So my perspective is different than land owners that do not have to face these harsh weather conditions during winter.

To each their own but.....

If you are seeing over 40 deer in your plots you have way to many deer.

If you cant get 14 acres of corn and soybeans left standing to make it to spring let alone February, you either have pathetic soil or way to many deer.

If the deer are browsing your white pines even when you are planting that kind of acreage, you either have poor habitat or, you guessed it way to many deer.

I am not try to say everyone should have weedy food plots. I just wanted to tell you about an observation on the ground I manage. From what I can tell the kinds of weeds that are in my beans are having little effect on yield. And did I mention zero input.

I could care less how many weeds are in anybodys plots. Just trying to spark and outside the box dialog, which I think has gone fairly well.

 

[yoderjac]

To each their own but.....

If you are seeing over 40 deer in your plots you have way to many deer.

If you cant get 14 acres of corn and soybeans left standing to make it to spring let alone February, you either have pathetic soil or way to many deer.

If the deer are browsing your white pines even when you are planting that kind of acreage, you either have poor habitat or, you guessed it way to many deer.

I am not try to say everyone should have weedy food plots. I just wanted to tell you about an observation on the ground I manage. From what I can tell the kinds of weeds that are in my beans are having little effect on yield. And did I mention zero input.

I could care less how many weeds are in anybodys plots. Just trying to spark and outside the box dialog, which I think has gone fairly well.

Once again, I'd say that really depends. Here in my area, 40 deer on one of my plots would certainly represent too many deer. However, in other regions where deer tend to herd and even yard, that may not be the case. During heavy stress periods, deer that are distributed over a much wider area can concentrate on the best available food sources for miles. Again, I don't know the specifics of JFK's situation, but I do know that the number of deer on a plot in the winter is only one measure of deer population.

Another thing to consider is that most of us don't control sufficient acreage to really do QDM. A deer's home range varies with habitat type, but 1,000 acres is not a bad ball park number. If one doesn't control that much, your local deer herd will be spending a significant portion of their lives off your property. Many folks are constrained by limitations of habitat well outside their control. Understanding the big picture view of what is available to deer in the general area, where their stress periods are, and what we can do on property we control to achieve a positive impact at a manageable cost is not easy. Most of us are compromising somewhere.

Having said that, this is a great thread that is causing many to think in much different way. Thanks for starting it!

Thanks,

Jack

 

[H20fwler]

As I've said I'm in a very high ag area where farmers plant from border to border, bulldoze fence rows and plant right up against the woods, also spray like crazy to get every penny they can out of their crops so most places aren't to "weedy". So the deer passing through or staying at our place can get cover and food and I am always trying to think of what the cover and food will be like for deer and all wildlife in Jan-Feb, I don't worry as much about the summer months because there is plenty of both then. I also don't have what I would call a high deer population but it's getting better and our winters aren't usually real deep snow.

 

[Nova]

I am just going to say one thing. I don't have a big issue with weeds in my plots, but if you let pigweed, giant ragweed, or waterhemp go for even one year you will be sorry. I know from experience.

 

[yoderjac]

I am just going to say one thing. I don't have a big issue with weeds in my plots, but if you let pigweed, giant ragweed, or waterhemp go for even one year you will be sorry. I know from experience.

You can add marestail to that list.

This brings us to a point someone made on another tread (Tap perhaps?). We throw the term "weed" around pretty generally. Most use is the same way that farmers do. I'm going to use the word "plant" in the following to be clear:

There are a huge number of plants that grow in the habitat space of a deer. Some are native, some are naturalized, and some are cultivated. For food plots we tend to select plants the we believe benefit deer and will perform in our area. We often forget the timing factor in determining if deer really benefit any more from our cultivate plants than non-cultivated plants. There are certain times of the year, based on location, where certain cultivated plants can clearly benefit deer when non-cultivated plants are not.

Of the non-cultivated plants, many of them benefit deer directly. Others benefit deer indirectly. They may contribute something to the soil that benefits another plant or animal that benefit deer. Yet others may have no benefit to deer and may have a negative impact by competing with plants that do benefit deer or other wildlife. A small subset of plants like those in you list (the list may differ by area), have negative impact on the cultivated plants that we put in our food plots reducing their benefit to deer during the stress period we are trying to cover. To the deer manager, this small subset of plants are truly weeds and probably require control methods.

These are not the "weeds" that this thread is referring to tolerating in the title. The other subset of weeds that we may want to consider controlling are those that have no significant wildlife benefit and are out-competing native (and sometimes naturalized) plants. Many invasive species fit this category. While we will likely never eliminate them once introduced, we can slow their invasion. This slowing allows the local ecosystem to absorb them with a less traumatic effect.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Crimson n' Camo]

I am just going to say one thing. I don't have a big issue with weeds in my plots, but if you let pigweed, giant ragweed, or waterhemp go for even one year you will be sorry. I know from experience.

If that's true then what keeps them from taking over the entire landscape and smothering out all other native understory plants?

I tend to believe that in most situations it's us humans who set the stage for these plants to thrive through our management practices.

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

Many "weeds" are a direct result of soil deficiencies and excesses of some nature or another. I"m not referring to the seed bank either.

 

[yoderjac]

If that's true then what keeps them from taking over the entire landscape and smothering out all other native understory plants?

I tend to believe that in most situations it's us humans who set the stage for these plants to thrive through our management practices.

In general, it is competition that keeps them from taking over the entire landscape. You are absolutely correct that it is our management techniques in many cases. Here is a great example. I had been planting RR forage soybeans with a light mix of corn each spring to sustain our deer during the summer stress period followed by surface broadcasting a WR/CC/PTT in the fall. It had been working great. Over time, we were able to get our deer numbers in balance enough to use less expensive ag beans.

Then, we did a timber harvest including a thinning and controlled burn of our pines. Marestail was in the native seed bank. It is naturally resistant to glyphosate. It popped up everywhere in the thinned pines. The next spring, I planted soybeans as usual and the fields were inundated by Marestail. Why? It was just as resistant to glyphosate as the soybeans but not attractive to deer like the beans. The marestail was advantaged over beans, there was no other serious competition because of the use of gly in the field, so it actually "canopied" and I ended up with a field of marestail with a few beans.

Over the next few years, natural competition from a variety of other plants as well as pines beginning to close the canopy and dropping needles, eliminated most of the actively growing marestail from the pines. My soybean fields and a couple other new fields that were being created from logging decks where gly was used continued to be inundated with marestail. My clover fields, where incidentally tolerate most "weeds" had a little marestail in it but not enough to be a problem. Fall mowing was enough to keep them in under control.

The soybean fields and new logging decks were another story. I had to stop planting beans. Instead, this year, I sprayed the young marestail with 24D. Because of the soil residual effect, I chose buckwheat for my summer plant. It's large planting window in my area allowed the residual effect of the 24D to dissipate. A thick buckwheat crop is also aggressive enough to smother a lot of competition. I'm making no attempt to control any weeds in this buckwheat. I am hesitant to use gly when I plant the cover crop this fall. Marestail can grow from see or root systems and I don't want to advantage it over other weeds. I would rather have my fall crop compete with a variety of weeds many of which benefit deer and other wildlife much more than marestail.

So, in this example, it was my management techniques that led to the marestail infestation. The use of gly (or any broad spectrum herbicide) in an integral part of most no-till operations. While there are huge long-term benefits to no-till, the use of herbicides can have effects we don't intend and cause their own issues.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Crimson n' Camo]

Mowing….the timing of the mowing….and the frequency of the mowing also heavily favors some plants over others.

Tillage definitely sets the stage to favor some plants over others……

Reduction in organic matter in the soil favors some plants over others….

Destruction of soil structure favors some plants over others…….

Moisture availability favors some plants over others……….

Bacterial versus fungally dominated microbial communities favors some plants over others……..

You could list a bunch if we thought about it for a while...…...

 

[yoderjac]

Mowing….the timing of the mowing….and the frequency of the mowing also heavily favors some plants over others.

Tillage definitely sets the stage to favor some plants over others……

Reduction in organic matter in the soil favors some plants over others….

Destruction of soil structure favors some plants over others…….

Moisture availability favors some plants over others……….

Bacterial versus fungally dominated microbial communities favors some plants over others……..

You could list a bunch if we thought about it for a while...…...

Completely agree and the timing of spraying the same herbicide can make a big difference in which plants are favored. The list goes on....

 

[SwampCat]

I am only speaking for myself - in the south - where we dont have harsh winters. To be honest - I dont feel my deer “need” my food plots - I am the one that needs them. Maybe the high protien bean and clover plantings really help the does and fawns - but my deer are not going to die if I quit planting my food plots - but a lot of them quit using my land if I dont have food plots. So yes, they can well subsist off native vegetation - what a lot of us food plotters refer to as weeds if they grow in our plots. In my area - deer use food plots because it is easy pickings - and I guess it tastes better to them than native vegetation. Deer use will decline during heavy acorn drop - but the rest of the year - I dont notice a decline in use of the food plots. When my grandkids come - I will often put out corn in front of a ground blind along the edge of a food plot - and many times, actually more often than not - the deer will not even go to the corn. I differentiate between food plotting and habitat management. I am first and foremost a food plotter. On my ground, I have found that the quickest way to increase my deer population - which is of prime importance to me - is through food plots. And I have even noticed in my food plots, all things are not created equal. My deer much prefer wheat over rye. But maybe if I quit planting wheat and only planted rye - they would use the rye just like they do the wheat. Deer did not use my brassica plantings - but maybe if I planted for several years, they would - but I dont consider that the best use of my time and money. Deer come to my property for my food plots - not for my native vegetation. On my 300 acres, there are about thirty acres of my plantings and 270 acres of native species. I have two or three times the surrounding deer density on my place because of my food plots - not because of my weeds. And deer density is what is most important - to me.

 

[Mortenson]

Lotta different scenarios. This summer I was lucky to be able to come up with close to another acre that got put into purple top turnips. I want it for an excellent winter food source and nothing else. Not going to hunt over it. IL's fine govt has decided to set up shop sniping our herd a half mile away, on the adjoining property. It's hard to compete with their corn pile in February, but I'm going to try. I want nothing but turnips growing in the plot. No grass and no weeds. Whatever weeds come now I'm stuck with. But I do plan to spray the grass this week. So yeah, while this isn't one of my kill plots, it is a case where I don't want the weed competition. Nothing to do with peace and harmony in nature, no synergism, just me trying to lure deer away from govt snipers. Right or wrong.