Timber Harvest

[Bowsnbucks]

I'm not in your region of the country, but Omicron's post #2 on here has some good pointers. Our camp's had 3 loggings done in the last 25 / 26 years. Put exactly what you want your roads and woods to look like in writing in the contract. Don't assume the loggers will grade your roads - even new ones needed to get timber out - to a usable, well-drained end product. Put in the contract whether you want the tops & brush left for brush piles / browse - or cleaned out. Any ruts from log skidders need to be filled - in writing. Talk to them about where you want the log landings to be - and how you want those areas to be restored after the logs are out. Put that in the contract too. They will take the easy stuff like Omicron said. Logging companies want the easiest, most profitable trees, so you must tell them exactly what you want, or don't want, in the contract. Not as much of a hassle as it may sound.

Before our loggings, we talked to several state & private foresters to get input. We wanted a combination of better wildlife habitat & future timber value. We pre-marked most of the big oaks, some hickories, black cherry, tulip poplar, red and sugar maple with surveyor's tape tied around them as "stay / keep" trees for mast / seed production. Foresters here told us that for best seed gemination in our woods, clearing some leaf duff around some of the best seed producing trees would get seed-to-soil contact = better seedling sprouting. Some loggers will drag spiked drags or use hooks to scarify the soil after logging to stir up the seed bank, so you may want to ask about that. Sunlight on bare soil makes things pop.

Consider planting some spruce seedlings or young trees to provide thermal / security / bedding cover. We've found that our deer utilized the clusters & lines of spruce we planted for all those 3 reasons. FWIW. Good luck with your project!!

 

[omicron1792]

I'm not in your region of the country, but Omicron's post #2 on here has some good pointers. Our camp's had 3 loggings done in the last 25 / 26 years. Put exactly what you want your roads and woods to look like in writing in the contract. Don't assume the loggers will grade your roads - even new ones needed to get timber out - to a usable, well-drained end product. Put in the contract whether you want the tops & brush left for brush piles / browse - or cleaned out. Any ruts from log skidders need to be filled - in writing. Talk to them about where you want the log landings to be - and how you want those areas to be restored after the logs are out. Put that in the contract too. They will take the easy stuff like Omicron said. Logging companies want the easiest, most profitable trees, so you must tell them exactly what you want, or don't want, in the contract. Not as much of a hassle as it may sound.

Before our loggings, we talked to several state & private foresters to get input. We wanted a combination of better wildlife habitat & future timber value. We pre-marked most of the big oaks, some hickories, black cherry, tulip poplar, red and sugar maple with surveyor's tape tied around them as "stay / keep" trees for mast / seed production. Foresters here told us that for best seed gemination in our woods, clearing some leaf duff around some of the best seed producing trees would get seed-to-soil contact = better seedling sprouting. Some loggers will drag spiked drags or use hooks to scarify the soil after logging to stir up the seed bank, so you may want to ask about that. Sunlight on bare soil makes things pop.

Consider planting some spruce seedlings or young trees to provide thermal / security / bedding cover. We've found that our deer utilized the clusters & lines of spruce we planted for all those 3 reasons. FWIW. Good luck with your project!!

Great advice my man.

The forester thAt comes and talks to you will be a nice gentleman. Every one I have ever dealt with felt like an old friend walking the property.

But, they are salesmen. That’s how they earn their living. The guys that come and cut the timber will not be like that guy. They are manual workers whose want to do the easiest work and don’t care at all about your property. That’s not being mean, they just don’t care about your deer or land.

If it’s not in contract it will not be done. You’ll hear stories about how higher prices are, how hard to get gravel delivered, how hard it is to get good help. The loggers don’t even work for the guy that came and walked your property most of the time.

Whatever you want has to be in the contract. Even then it doesn’t always get done and you have to force the issue.

 

[ruskbucks]

Your property sounds alot like mine. Mostly maple, few bigger oaks. I had mine logged 7 years ago couldn't be happier. The number one best thing I did was hire a private forester that will manage for wildlife and timber production . I know you mentioned leaving the crooked oaks and taking the bigger ones. My forester did just the opposite. He made the loggers take all the crooked/poor quality trees out this cutting. That allows the best nicest timber to thrive and be larger and bring in alot more money in the future. I had around 50 acres of my 80 select cut with any areas that had aspen clear cut, which ended up being 5 spots the largest being 3 acres. These spots have been the best spots to hunt over . Doe bedding areas that bucks constantly check out. I see you have some marked out, I highly recommend those clear cuts. Those maple stumps will provide alot of feed for many years. They make some quick cover too. Your plan looks good, I think you will be happy with it as long as you get a decent logger.

 

[J B]

I agree with a statement above about both clear cuts being on the property line. I would leave a decent buffer and allow yourself a spot for a rut stand with a different wind direction overlooking the new bedding area. Will any of it be flat enough for a small kill plot or orchard (both will need good sunlight)? I’d also lean hard against cutting oaks very hard if they are not common already. I’d release almost all of them. Try to get a good access road around the property lines if you can. Your hunt sounds similar to many in WI this year. How about the other years since buying it? Good luck!

 

[westonwhitetail]

I've said this on here before but my place was predominantly dying hemlock. I had all of them removed about 5 years ago now. Mostly what is left is oak and beech but it has grown back almost all black birch which I don't consider a good tree for deer anyway. It does grow fast and come in thick. I was looking around during rifle season and some of it is 15-20 feet tall already. There is some really nice cover now and while I don't hold many deer, I do hold a few and the amount of deer seen has been night and day from when it was hemlocks. The weird part is my neighbor had his timbered the same way at the same time and his didn't grow up very much at all. Not sure if he had more oaks that kept everything shaded or what.

It was interesting talking with the forester about how you have to log your property to get desired results. Oaks prefer full sun, so that is why he is focusing on cutting the tops of ridges and south faceing slopes more aggressively to allow enough sun for oak regeneration. He also mentioned scarifying the soil and adding acorns or seedlings to help. Other species like I have like maple and basswoods can grow well in semi-shaded conditions. This is why the existing stands are dominated by maple on my north and east facing slopes because its harder to get enough sunlight to have the oak out complete the other more shade tolerant species. So like you said, maybe the shade affect is why you see a difference in your and your neighbors properties.

 

[westonwhitetail]

I would likely leave the majority of the oaks since there are not a lot of them clown releasing the younger nicer trees perhaps taking some of the largest saw log trees just for a bit of profit but don’t get carried away taking all the best oaks. Hard maple is a good timber tree but rather a poor deer tree so even a bit of clear cutting of the maple wouldn’t be a bad thing. That property seem to be quite steep in areas if you have a natural high point overlooking a lower area the lower area clear cut would likely make for a fantastic kill box. I have one of those situations on a couple properties I do a major crown release or clear cut the lower area below the nature high point that I can easily access that overlooks the kill box this has been a particularly effective approach for me over the years for rifle hunting.

I likes the sounds of this. I need cover during gun season, because when the pressure is on I currently don't have the cover for deer to come to and feel safe. This is exactly the types of stands I would like to have for gun season.

 

[westonwhitetail]

I'm not in your region of the country, but Omicron's post #2 on here has some good pointers. Our camp's had 3 loggings done in the last 25 / 26 years. Put exactly what you want your roads and woods to look like in writing in the contract. Don't assume the loggers will grade your roads - even new ones needed to get timber out - to a usable, well-drained end product. Put in the contract whether you want the tops & brush left for brush piles / browse - or cleaned out. Any ruts from log skidders need to be filled - in writing. Talk to them about where you want the log landings to be - and how you want those areas to be restored after the logs are out. Put that in the contract too. They will take the easy stuff like Omicron said. Logging companies want the easiest, most profitable trees, so you must tell them exactly what you want, or don't want, in the contract. Not as much of a hassle as it may sound.

Before our loggings, we talked to several state & private foresters to get input. We wanted a combination of better wildlife habitat & future timber value. We pre-marked most of the big oaks, some hickories, black cherry, tulip poplar, red and sugar maple with surveyor's tape tied around them as "stay / keep" trees for mast / seed production. Foresters here told us that for best seed gemination in our woods, clearing some leaf duff around some of the best seed producing trees would get seed-to-soil contact = better seedling sprouting. Some loggers will drag spiked drags or use hooks to scarify the soil after logging to stir up the seed bank, so you may want to ask about that. Sunlight on bare soil makes things pop.

Consider planting some spruce seedlings or young trees to provide thermal / security / bedding cover. We've found that our deer utilized the clusters & lines of spruce we planted for all those 3 reasons. FWIW. Good luck with your project!!

I like the idea of adding some spruce and white pine in areas. There is not much for thermal cover around. As its been talked about on here before, areas that have a few young pines or spruce always feel like great deer cover.

 

[westonwhitetail]

Great advice my man.

The forester thAt comes and talks to you will be a nice gentleman. Every one I have ever dealt with felt like an old friend walking the property.

But, they are salesmen. That’s how they earn their living. The guys that come and cut the timber will not be like that guy. They are manual workers whose want to do the easiest work and don’t care at all about your property. That’s not being mean, they just don’t care about your deer or land.

If it’s not in contract it will not be done. You’ll hear stories about how higher prices are, how hard to get gravel delivered, how hard it is to get good help. The loggers don’t even work for the guy that came and walked your property most of the time.

Whatever you want has to be in the contract. Even then it doesn’t always get done and you have to force the issue.

Yeah I think the contract I was given (not signed yet), needs some work. I almost would like to attach my "plan" and add more details that you've mentioned

 

[westonwhitetail]

I agree with a statement above about both clear cuts being on the property line. I would leave a decent buffer and allow yourself a spot for a rut stand with a different wind direction overlooking the new bedding area. Will any of it be flat enough for a small kill plot or orchard (both will need good sunlight)? I’d also lean hard against cutting oaks very hard if they are not common already. I’d release almost all of them. Try to get a good access road around the property lines if you can. Your hunt sounds similar to many in WI this year. How about the other years since buying it? Good luck!

Thanks. I have an orchard started in the SW corner of the square forty and a food plot there. Did not think of adding some smaller plots in the wooded cover though. It is flat enough on the north end of both clear cuts for something.

I have had good luck bowhunting my property the last 2 seasons. There are some dandy bucks around so I was happily surprised at that when I bought the place. I did get a decent 8 and decent 9 the first two seasons. I haven't gotten a chance at the biggest bucks in the neighborhood yet though. It seems like those big ones use my property less come when the woods gets so open and park like. I should bow hunt early season because they are on it more frequently in the summer and first half of the season.

 

[Turkish]

A landowner should not deal directly with a logger. A consulting forester should be the intermediary. A good forester will provide an initial basis as part of the deal, though, the basis needs to be done when the timber is acquired, not immediately before harvest.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

Your property sounds alot like mine. Mostly maple, few bigger oaks. I had mine logged 7 years ago couldn't be happier. The number one best thing I did was hire a private forester that will manage for wildlife and timber production . I know you mentioned leaving the crooked oaks and taking the bigger ones. My forester did just the opposite. He made the loggers take all the crooked/poor quality trees out this cutting. That allows the best nicest timber to thrive and be larger and bring in alot more money in the future. I had around 50 acres of my 80 select cut with any areas that had aspen clear cut, which ended up being 5 spots the largest being 3 acres. These spots have been the best spots to hunt over . Doe bedding areas that bucks constantly check out. I see you have some marked out, I highly recommend those clear cuts. Those maple stumps will provide alot of feed for many years. They make some quick cover too. Your plan looks good, I think you will be happy with it as long as you get a decent logger.

I hunted some aspen clear cuts on state land here some years ago. Bigger aspen, when cut, will send up loads of new shoots from the root system. It'll get very thick for a number of years before the aspen thin themselves out naturally. Deer love thick aspen areas. When young, deer browse aspen like mad here, and like you said, they become hotspots for doe & fawn bedding. I've never seen so many rubs as in those aspen clear cuts. Bucks would travel from one to another looking for does, and the trails were insane. I've watched nice bucks laying right with a number of does in those aspen clusters around the end of October. Grouse love aspen buds - one of their favorite foods. Another plus.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

I like the idea of adding some spruce and white pine in areas. There is not much for thermal cover around. As its been talked about on here before, areas that have a few young pines or spruce always feel like great deer cover.

We have loads of white pine here, so we get 'em free naturally. The only problem with WP is after they grow to roughly 15 ft. tall, the lower limbs start to thin out. We love having the WP, but spruce keep limbs low to the ground and make a better windbreak / thermal / security cover. From our experience, if you want to keep your WP thicker near ground level, cut the tops off (the single leaders that head for the sky). They'll push more new limbs lower on the trunk. Gives you a few more years of WP cover. We learned from foresters!

We also found that clusters of spruce with space in between them - 20 ft. or so, that has grass & weeds growing between the trees is super deer bedding area. FWIW.

Keep us posted with what you do there. That kind of work (play) is fun.

 

[Ben.MN/WI]

I like the idea of adding some spruce and white pine in areas. There is not much for thermal cover around. As its been talked about on here before, areas that have a few young pines or spruce always feel like great deer cover.

I've tried planting spruce in logged out areas, but they struggle competing with faster growing regrowth unless you are able to spray or cut around each tree. But if there is no competition around the tree, you'll need a tree cage to preven the bucks from rubbing on the tree.

Have your logger leave the tree tops where they land and you will have the best bedding in the area.

 

[PatinPA]

It was interesting talking with the forester about how you have to log your property to get desired results. Oaks prefer full sun, so that is why he is focusing on cutting the tops of ridges and south faceing slopes more aggressively to allow enough sun for oak regeneration. He also mentioned scarifying the soil and adding acorns or seedlings to help. Other species like I have like maple and basswoods can grow well in semi-shaded conditions. This is why the existing stands are dominated by maple on my north and east facing slopes because its harder to get enough sunlight to have the oak out complete the other more shade tolerant species. So like you said, maybe the shade affect is why you see a difference in your and your neighbors properties.

That could be. We're both on the north facing slope. Mine is a little more steeply sloped than his but his sits a little lower than mine. As fast growing as the birch is I can see why it's a monoculture. At least it shades out the stilt grass and keeps it from spreading.

 

[westonwhitetail]

We have loads of white pine here, so we get 'em free naturally. The only problem with WP is after they grow to roughly 15 ft. tall, the lower limbs start to thin out. We love having the WP, but spruce keep limbs low to the ground and make a better windbreak / thermal / security cover. From our experience, if you want to keep your WP thicker near ground level, cut the tops off (the single leaders that head for the sky). They'll push more new limbs lower on the trunk. Gives you a few more years of WP cover. We learned from foresters!

We also found that clusters of spruce with space in between them - 20 ft. or so, that has grass & weeds growing between the trees is super deer bedding area. FWIW.

Keep us posted with what you do there. That kind of work (play) is fun.

I'd probably do both pine and spruce then for variety. In the future I want to convert a chunk of my ag field to Native grasses with pines mixed in for more cover. I love areas like those, they just feel like deer should be behind every corner!

 

[westonwhitetail]

I walked the property today with a logger. He seems fairly willing to work with me and understands my goals. He wasn't pushing to take all the oaks and leave the rest. He was open to doing some pockets of clear cutting. He prioritized taking all the ash and most red (soft) maple first, then thin out the hard maple and take oaks as I want. He had some good pointers on which oaks he would take and which to leave for acorn production. For example, there was a group of 6 oaks in one area, he recommended taking one that had some dead branches at the top and one crooked one and leaving the larger and healthy trees for future harvest and seed. That gave me some confidence in him that he wasn't trying to take all the easy high dollar stuff. We also discuss reestablishing some old logging roads for my use later on, restoration, and landing areas. He is going to take a better inventory and give me an estimate now that he knows my goals better.

I have another logging company with an industrial forester coming out next week. I'm hoping to get his recommendations, estimate, and see what kind of impression I get from him as well.

Thanks for all the input on here so far, it was helpful for my walk today.

 

[Hoytvectrix]

How easy has it been to make appointments with foresters/loggers?

 

[omicron1792]

Yeah I think the contract I was given (not signed yet), needs some work. I almost would like to attach my "plan" and add more details that you've mentioned

Happy to help with that on here or in private. Just like passing on the lessons I’ve learned, most the hard way!

 

[RGrizzzz]

That could be. We're both on the north facing slope. Mine is a little more steeply sloped than his but his sits a little lower than mine. As fast growing as the birch is I can see why it's a monoculture. At least it shades out the stilt grass and keeps it from spreading.

Did they do any spraying before the cut? We're working towards having our place in PA cut, but the Forester strongly suggests spraying first to keep the ferns and low grade species back. He specifically mentioned black birch.

 

[omicron1792]

How easy has it been to make appointments with foresters/loggers?

Depends on timber prices and If mills are running. Most have quotas. The better/bigger loggers will often be front of the line which helps with prices and keeping things moving.

You hit on another point I meant to add. Most will have a dozer and excavator on site. Pick where you want your access roads for the logging and that should be free.

It’s also a great time to pay them a couple of grand for a couple of days of dozer/excavator work. But in a new plot. Dig a water hole. Put in a drainage pipe. Get some loads of gravel. Can use profits to pay for it and it doesn’t cost you anything out of pocket. Can also ease in capital gains from harvest. Cash is king with loggers. Try to get a set price for the work and not per hour.