Thermal Drone Deer Recovery

[PrairieShadow]

Illegal in SD.

 

[PrairieShadow]

If I know exactly where my target buck is, I will 100% kill that deer within a few days assuming I have access to him. It's not rocket science to figure out how to get in front of him when I know exactly where he is. I don't need to stalk up to him or poach him after dark, his behavior will be plenty predictable.

Absolutely agree with this. If I know where a deer is bedded, I'm fairly confident I'll get him killed.

 

[Natty Bumppo]

Additionally, on the subject of deer recovery, how do you feel if your neighbor or neighbor 3 properties over hires a drone for a hit deer and they fly over your property searching? They now have access to all your information from landscape to habitat to a census of deer in real time on your place. The drone can’t distinguish between dead or wounded deer and living deer so mr drone operator is going to check every heat register he gets. (If you own a small property I could check the entire thing in a couple minutes). Now your neighbor and his buddy know everything you may be wanting to keep close to the vest. Next thing you know they mention it to a buddy “hey we saw a hammer in mr bills food plot on the powerline the other day with that drone”.
Not saying anything comes of it but there’s also no reason someone should have legal access to do that. I don’t care if you looking for a deer or not. You should have to get the landowners permission to snoop around their property.

Agree.

Like most technologies, the possibilities for GOOD are endless.
- recovery of deer
- sex ratio analysis
- DPSM calculations
- habitat and food plot usage studies
- migration habits
- daily/seasonal/yearly deer behavior studies
- recruitment estimates
- deer predator studies

But as always, with the good comes the bad.

 

[PrairieShadow]

With an IR equipped drone, you are likely to see less than 1% of the deer on my property during shooting hours. Here, and in many places where pines are dominate, you will see nothing under a pine canopy. The are effective in open country and in hardwoods, perhaps, when leaves are on the ground.

It is funny how our perceptions vary from reality. In are state, it is legal to hunt deer with dogs. If you ask non-dog hunters they will tell you it give hunters an unfair advantage in hunting deer. If you look at the statistics, dog hunters have a very slight statistical advantage of shooting a deer over non-dog hunters in my state.

Keep in mind that you can't legally operate a drone outside line of sight without a license (which is a big deal to get). Perhaps in flat open country that has more range, but around here, that is not a large area.

On the upside of this technology, law enforcement has less restrictions on drone operation. I can see this being a great tool to allow game wardens expand their range.

This, like all of the technology that has come before it, will eventually find an equilibrium in the hunting community. Folks will form a consensus regarding legitimate and illegitimate uses. Some will be codified into law and regulation. Others will be individual ethical choices.

Thanks,

Jack

And at my place you would see the other 99% laying out in the grass with zero overhead cover. Especially if there is snow cover like there is now.

 

[H20fwler]

Additionally, on the subject of deer recovery, how do you feel if your neighbor or neighbor 3 properties over hires a drone for a hit deer and they fly over your property searching? They now have access to all your information from landscape to habitat to a census of deer in real time on your place. The drone can’t distinguish between dead or wounded deer and living deer so mr drone operator is going to check every heat register he gets. (If you own a small property I could check the entire thing in a couple minutes). Now your neighbor and his buddy know everything you may be wanting to keep close to the vest. Next thing you know they mention it to a buddy “hey we saw a hammer in mr bills food plot on the powerline the other day with that drone”.
Not saying anything comes of it but there’s also no reason someone should have legal access to do that. I don’t care if you looking for a deer or not. You should have to get the landowners permission to snoop around their property.

Pretty sure Ohio has passed laws against flying drones over private property below certain levels, and the higher levels are governed by Fed laws.
Nothing some 4buck and a tight choke can’t fix quick.

 

[Spike_Horn_Shooter]

Additionally, on the subject of deer recovery, how do you feel if your neighbor or neighbor 3 properties over hires a drone for a hit deer and they fly over your property searching? They now have access to all your information from landscape to habitat to a census of deer in real time on your place. The drone can’t distinguish between dead or wounded deer and living deer so mr drone operator is going to check every heat register he gets. (If you own a small property I could check the entire thing in a couple minutes). Now your neighbor and his buddy know everything you may be wanting to keep close to the vest. Next thing you know they mention it to a buddy “hey we saw a hammer in mr bills food plot on the powerline the other day with that drone”.
Not saying anything comes of it but there’s also no reason someone should have legal access to do that. I don’t care if you looking for a deer or not. You should have to get the landowners permission to snoop around their property.

That we can agree on!

 

[Spike_Horn_Shooter]

What if we only allowed drone usage at night. Opposite of hunting hours. 1 hour after sunset and 1 hour before. Don’t bump migratory birds. Can’t set up on neighbors deer. Can’t flush animals to shoot. Can’t have your hint interrupted by a bzzzzz of a drone. Keep the low level riff raff without the ability to spend big $$ on thermals out of the game.

 

[yoderjac]

And at my place you would see the other 99% laying out in the grass with zero overhead cover. Especially if there is snow cover like there is now.

Like all things habitat. Location is a key factor.

 

[roymunson]

If thermal drones were legal, and I had to choose, I'd go with my cuddelink system 100%. For the average person, too expensive and too difficult to use to try and harvest a deer, especially at night. I don't feel concerned this is going to catch on and be a big deal in regards to poaching deer. Thermal scopes, on the other hand...

poor choice... As a man with a cudde network, they've been very frustrating this year.

 

[yoderjac]

poor choice... As a man with a cudde network, they've been very frustrating this year.

I've got the older but much higher end BEC wireless network that I've bene running for around 15 years. It has been great for collecting data for trending deer year over year for management decisions. From a hunting perspective it has added zero to my success rates. It has helped me put kids in stands to see deer on our youth day before the season begins.

I find, that with a wireless camera network, you really need reliability when used for collecting management data. Missing data, from cams that are down, or missed triggers, can significantly bias data. Sex data can be significantly biased by camera avoidance as well with visible flash or the noise related to mechanical filters.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Mtyhunter]

poor choice... As a man with a cudde network, they've been very frustrating this year.

i initially went with cuddelink so i wouldn't have to walk thru stinking up my hunting areas checking cameras, and, to get a heads up when big boy was on his feet in my area. Been doing all that for 5 years now with minimal issues and great success. will purchase 4 more when the new models come out. Sorry to hear you've had difficulties. I know they're not perfect, but, when i compare the advantage this system gives me, (for legal deer hunting) over what I've experienced with a thermal cam drone hunting hogs, i believe this camera system has offered me way more intel than the drone could. If i was poaching deer at night, maybe not i guess. I think the thermal drone issue is overrated, except in regards to privacy!
May be a little off topic, but, the livescope for fishing is technology that needs to be reckoned with. I got to experience some of it last fall, and I was amazed. I felt like there's no way for me to outfish a guy who has livescope and knows how to use it. It's a true game changer that can be used legally.

 

[yoderjac]

i initially went with cuddelink so i wouldn't have to walk thru stinking up my hunting areas checking cameras, and, to get a heads up when big boy was on his feet in my area. Been doing all that for 5 years now with minimal issues and great success. will purchase 4 more when the new models come out. Sorry to hear you've had difficulties. I know they're not perfect, but, when i compare the advantage this system gives me, (for legal deer hunting) over what I've experienced with a thermal cam drone hunting hogs, i believe this camera system has offered me way more intel than the drone could. If i was poaching deer at night, maybe not i guess. I think the thermal drone issue is overrated, except in regards to privacy!
May be a little off topic, but, the livescope for fishing is technology that needs to be reckoned with. I got to experience some of it last fall, and I was amazed. I felt like there's no way for me to outfish a guy who has livescope and knows how to use it. It's a true game changer that can be used legally.

If you have a benign RF environment and don't need longer transmission distance and can live with thumbnail pics, the cuddelink system may be a good fit. It would not do for my pine farm, but I did consider it for my little retirement property where I'm not doing deer management, just want to see what's out there.

 

[Mtyhunter]

I'm just a run of the mill hunter with 800 acres that i do most of my deer hunting on. Have 5 cams on the network, that helps me cover 3 different hunting areas. Thumbnails are ok for what I use it for. Do have the occasional issue w/ cell transmissions. Have 1 cam 1000 yds away over rolling hills that connects (distance connections are amazing) Had them for 5 years now. Not having to go into my areas to check cams was my #1 reason at first. A nice bonus that turned up is the ability to view all pics from all cameras at one sitting. That has allowed me to understand movements to further dial in the patterns. It's certainly not a pro level management tool, but it helps me connect the dots consistently. It felt like a natural next step to try a drone for even more stealthy recon, but in reality it really didn't offer me anything other than having to pack more crap out in the woods, and "picking the gnat crap out of the pepper" in regards to figuring out how to work everything. I truly understand the concern about thermal drones and their potential nefarious uses, but, I doubt if it'll ever turn into a serious issue. One can't just dip a big toe into this arena, you have to go all in with the money and the smarts to figure it all out. It would be alot easier just to use a thermal scope to poach, so that's a bigger concern imo.

 

[yoderjac]

I'm just a run of the mill hunter with 800 acres that i do most of my deer hunting on. Have 5 cams on the network, that helps me cover 3 different hunting areas. Thumbnails are ok for what I use it for. Do have the occasional issue w/ cell transmissions. Have 1 cam 1000 yds away over rolling hills that connects (distance connections are amazing) Had them for 5 years now. Not having to go into my areas to check cams was my #1 reason at first. A nice bonus that turned up is the ability to view all pics from all cameras at one sitting. That has allowed me to understand movements to further dial in the patterns. It's certainly not a pro level management tool, but it helps me connect the dots consistently. It felt like a natural next step to try a drone for even more stealthy recon, but in reality it really didn't offer me anything other than having to pack more crap out in the woods, and "picking the gnat crap out of the pepper" in regards to figuring out how to work everything. I truly understand the concern about thermal drones and their potential nefarious uses, but, I doubt if it'll ever turn into a serious issue. One can't just dip a big toe into this arena, you have to go all in with the money and the smarts to figure it all out. It would be alot easier just to use a thermal scope to poach, so that's a bigger concern imo.

Glad it works for you. I'm not using a cell based system so there is no recurring cost. I'm on a pine farm and pines are some of the biggest attenuators of signal. I'm running a dozen cams over about 400 acres. With my RF environment about 1/2 mile or so is my longest transmission leg. These cams use 5 mile radios, much longer range than the newer BEC X series which are longer distance than the cuddies. Keep in mind that a radio spec at 5 miles is under optimal conditions. Like if you were transmitting hilltop to hilltop with line-of-sight between the transmitters. And that would only be enough signal level to close the link. The lower the signal level, the more packets are lost and the more retransmission that is needed. That means more power consumption. For my application, I want to be able to inventory individual bucks based on antler configuration. Since I don't use bait, deer can be some distance from the camera. That means I want full resolution pictures so I can zoom in on antlers.

By the way, I think I've had my first true camera failure with the BEC Orion series in 15 years. This year, I had one of my antenna masts bend in a storm for one of my repeater cameras. My pines had grown up and my signal to the base from that repeater had gotten low enough that I decided to re-route and go around the pines through another repeater camera. That meant I did not need the tall mast on that router. Long story short, when I reconfigured that antenna, I lost connectivity to one of the terminal cameras. I tried all kinds of things. I finally took the camera 80 yards away where I had had line-of-sight and got a connection with a very low signal level. I took that terminal camera back to its home location and just used an SD card for the rest of the season. Well our season ended last week, so I had some time to work on it. I took another camera out and plugged it in to the same antenna and got a solid connection with a good signal level. Since I eliminated the cable and antenna, it must be the radio inside the camera that is the issue or it could be the internal cable. Either way, the radio in the camera is finally failing. It is past end-of-life support, but I'm sending it back today anyway. They are willing to evaluate it and see if they still have components for whatever is wrong. It still takes great pictures and is otherwise reliable.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Mtyhunter]

Jack, your info on this site is always interesting and in depth. You obviously understand minutiae of technology. Between your posts, Volkman, and several others, it's helped me understand. As an example, the packet loss and resulting transmssion/power/queue issues are real with Cuddelink. I was witnessing it from the start, but didn't exactly know what the root cause was. But, if I can get the goods on the root cause, I can make the necessary adjustments. The info I get from you all on this site has been worth the reads for sure!

 

[yoderjac]

Jack, your info on this site is always interesting and in depth. You obviously understand minutiae of technology. Between your posts, Volkman, and several others, it's helped me understand. As an example, the packet loss and resulting transmssion/power/queue issues are real with Cuddelink. I was witnessing it from the start, but didn't exactly know what the root cause was. But, if I can get the goods on the root cause, I can make the necessary adjustments. The info I get from you all on this site has been worth the reads for sure!

Those issues are related to 900 mhz packet radio transmission regardless of the camera they are attached to. The differences between systems related to transmission include reliability, radio power (which is limited by the FFC), and the specifics of the radio communication scheme (spread spectrum technique and such). There are a few key differences between cuddelink and the system I'm using. The cuddelink radios use a self-healing network topology. That means you don't specify the route as a user. Each camera finds "shortest" path to the base based on signal strength and number of hops. This is convenient for an inexperience user, but it has limitations. You never know what path signals are taking. That means it is hard to figure out where to put your battery power.

With the system I'm using the user specifies the route. You need to know more about your camera network, but the advantage is power management. I put large solar panels on my routing camera cause I know what they are. They have sufficient power and recharge capability to handle their own pictures and the pictures sent from other cameras. If you don't know the signal route you can't power balance the network.

One of the ways cuddielink avoids many issues is decimating pictures to small thumbnails for transmission. It requires less power to transmit less data.

Cuddelink has some advantages like initial cost and shields the user from complexity by limiting functionality. In some cases it is likely a good fit. Volkman oversells it, but has been a good resource helping folks solve the many issues they have with it. I'm not married to any one system. I did an engineering analysis many years ago, long before cuddelink was on the market. I knew the system I selected had a high upfront cost and required some expertise to setup, but with my first failure (which may or may not be fixable) about 15 years out and no recurring cost except batteries, it has had a lower lifespan cost when amortized.

Some folks get bored reading the long posts and others benefit from them. I'm just glad to help those who benefit.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[john volkman]

only Jack can take a thread on thermal drones and use it as another chance to bash myself and Cuddelink while spewing BS full of half truths while trying to sound like he invented the wheel.

 

[yoderjac]

only Jack can take a thread on thermal drones and use it as another chance to bash myself and Cuddelink while spewing BS full of half truths while trying to sound like he invented the wheel.

I thought I was complementing your on your contribution helping folks with Cuddelink. Just providing an honest assessment for the guy interested in the technology.

Just to be clear. There is NO perfect system. All have advantages and disadvantages. It is important to understand both so folks can make good decisions about what technology fits their applications. There is a different between bashing and comparing and contrasting strengths and weaknesses.

 

[john volkman]

I thought I was complementing your on your contribution helping folks with Cuddelink. Just providing an honest assessment for the guy interested in the technology.

Just to be clear. There is NO perfect system. All have advantages and disadvantages. It is important to understand both so folks can make good decisions about what technology fits their applications. There is a different between bashing and comparing and contrasting strengths and weaknesses.

"Volkman oversells it" I absolutely do not oversell it, i tell people exactly what it can and cant do. You have never used a cuddelink camera so im not sure how you would be able to make that statement, not to mention the many other statements you continue to make that are BS. I've used both systems you "compared" and have close friends and retailers that own and use both, i know the strengths and weaknesses of both systems and if anyone is overselling anything, its you, with BE.

 

[yoderjac]

"Volkman oversells it" I absolutely do not oversell it, i tell people exactly what it can and cant do. You have never used a cuddelink camera so im not sure how you would be able to make that statement, not to mention the many other statements you continue to make that are BS. I've used both systems you "compared" and have close friends and retailers that own and use both, i know the strengths and weaknesses of both systems and if anyone is overselling anything, its you, with BE.

An honest assessment on my part. Spinning positives and ignoring negatives is oversell in my book. You are entitled to your opinion as am I.