New Property Layout Suggestions

[phil@thesidehill]

One of my best friends and a long time hunting buddy purchased 21.4 acres here in NE PA back in July. He still lives in suburban NY, but plans on eventually retiring to this property in about 10-12 yrs. the property has a great home on it. He was looking for a balance of property and good solid home. So he knew going into it that he wasn't going to end up with a large tract with no dwelling, but he really tried to find a compromise of some land to hunt on, and a place to live that would not require alot of repair, maintenance, etc. This property fit the bill perfectly.

My friend is not a die hard habitat guy like those of us here on the forum. that said, he has hunted my property, and a mutual friend's farm in NY that i help manage. So he has seen habitat management and deer management in action...and he is all about doing whatever is possible to improve the 21 acres. Of course 21 acres is not alot to work with...but I hell..i do it on 10 acres! He has asked me to take up the lead on getting a plan together. I like to hunt a property for a season or two just to get a feel for what the deer are already doing...are there natural patterns in place that should be preserved, could be enhanced, or need further modification from a huntability standpoint. what is the surrounding hunting pressure like? what does the place look like after leaves are all down? what is the wind actually like versus forecast? best access points? Basically, the nuts and bolts stuff.

This property will NOT be managed extensively for mature buck hunting. This property will be managed for overall deer huntability. My friend simply has not harvested many bucks and really does not have an interest in holding out for a mature buck. His property, his call and I am perfectly cool with that. When I hunt the property, i will be hunting with my own personal goals in mind, and I will be holding out for a deer of at least 3 yrs or older.

He has 3 friends that will come up and hunt periodically. each of them prefer different implements, muzzle loader, flint lock, rifle, etc. With that in mind, there really won't be 4 or more people hunting the 21 acres at a time...thankfully...the property borders a small (65 acres) chunk of state game lands. This small chunk of game lands, believe it or not does not have any public access points! it is completely land locked by private property. I do believe this land was most likely given to the game commission as a part of an estate. Someone my have deeded all their property to the Game Commission when they passed away....and it wasn't all contiguous. I have heard of this in another area of the state. This small piece of game lands is considered a part of about 10,000 acres of game lands that are within a 3 to 10 minute drive depending on what part you go to. Basically what im saying is that there is room to spread out and roam and hunting options very close by that can keep pressure of the 21 acres.

This property is in a "big woods" mountainous setting. there are other cabins and dwellings around, but there definitely isn't any agriculture to speak of. I am confident that this area has a fairly low deer density. It has a pretty high bear density though...lol. It is fairly remote, the road in requires 4 wheel drive for portions of the year and is a private road...so it doesnt get plowed by a township or the state or anything.

I did look at the soil survey maps and most of the property has soils that should be decent for eventual food plots. The majority of the property is canopied timber. the previous owner did some very light selective cutting about 8 years ago. There are beech, hard maple, black cherry, hemlock, yellow birch. there are lot of ferns, and high bush blueberries in the understory. there is currently an old logging trail that runs basically up the center of the property.

We aren't doing anything other than hanging a couple stands this year. But I think i want to make a perimeter trail, just wide enough for a quad along the entire property line first thing. I think it will aid in establishing a well marked boundary, it will make keeping posters up and visible easier, and once it is established it will provide a way to very easily identify points of entry in terms of trespassers...leaving boot prints in the dirt/mud etc. the previous owner indicated that he only had one problem with a tresspasser and it was back in 1991....I happen to know the guy personally so i know he's not bs'ing. It will also lay the groundwork for hunting access around the margins instead of going up through the middle. in the attached aerial is from May 10 2014. the yellow line is the the property boundary. the property leg to the left is the owned right of way where the driveway is. the yellow leg to the right is a deeded 20 ft wide right away. I think that deeded right of way may come in handy for stand access toward the back of the property. the green rectangle is the 65 acres of game lands. I can provide some different zooms if requested.

The overall goal is NOT making a mature buck factory. We want to increase overall deer usage of the property in general and specifically during legal shooting hours with huntability. I already have some ideas running around my skull...but i'd like to hear some of your thoughts. Please bear in mind the limitations

 

[phil@thesidehill]

 

[phil@thesidehill]

basic idea of the topography of the area.

 

[j-bird]

just some thoughts - I like the idea of a perimeter access to maximize access and reserve the most area for security cover. It looks like you have some pines and that the center of this area has a crest to it, so you should have some bedding to work with as long as the cover is there. Hinging and releasing some/if any oaks will help as well. Not sure if you have the room to screen the access on the inside or not. I would keep plots small/tactical type plots of LC mix and be done with it (perennials and annual fall plots - simple and effective). I would also install small water holes at each plot and you should be good to go. Plan plot locations based on major wind directions and be done. Maybe toss in a few crab apples and again keep it simple. You may be able to achieve this by putting plot areas on opposite corners of the property. Just some thoughts.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

Hey Phil,
The one thing I know has helped to keep deer on our property at camp is spruce plantings. Our Norway & white spruces are planted in groups and sprinkled in more random plantings. They provided thermal cover and security for the deer in daylight hours. Since we planted them ( starting 19 yrs. ago, & continuing today ) we see more deer during hunting hours whether driving or sitting in stands. Excellent windbreak. When planted on a S or SE facing area, it becomes a good bedding area in colder weather. If you can incorporate some spruce plantings, I think you'll see increased use by deer and all kinds of birds, grouse. My camp's in Lyco. Good luck & have fun w/ it.

 

[phil@thesidehill]

just some thoughts - I like the idea of a perimeter access to maximize access and reserve the most area for security cover. It looks like you have some pines and that the center of this area has a crest to it, so you should have some bedding to work with as long as the cover is there. Hinging and releasing some/if any oaks will help as well. Not sure if you have the room to screen the access on the inside or not. I would keep plots small/tactical type plots of LC mix and be done with it (perennials and annual fall plots - simple and effective). I would also install small water holes at each plot and you should be good to go. Plan plot locations based on major wind directions and be done. Maybe toss in a few crab apples and again keep it simple. You may be able to achieve this by putting plot areas on opposite corners of the property. Just some thoughts.

Thanks j-bird!
I think perimeter access is going to be key. I also think that the deeded right of way on the north end is going to be key. Prevailing fall/winter winds are westerly in this area. There is a bit of a southeastern aspect to the slope of most of the property. I'll be curious to see if/how much the thermals play in.
The "pines" are hemlock. they are absolutely key thermal cover my neck of the woods...espcially those little islands. I have found a lot of sheds under hemlocks! When the snow flies....they are magnets for deer...the snow is so much less deep under a good stand as well. however they are generally wide open under canopy. I was thinking about hinging the beech regrowth around that patch...kind of feather the edges around the hemlocks to thicken things up a little.

We have NO oaks in this area....in fact a large portion of this county does not have any oaks! The years that Beech mast is on...it can be incredible tho...however the beech nut crop is not really consistent...at least not in a lot of the surrounding area that i have been in...I have no reason to think otherwise for this property.

I'm really not sure on the screening inside of the perimeter access trail, i think thats what you're referring to. May not be enough room, it may end up bedding deer too claose? Really haven't come to a conclusion on that.

As far as plots go I was really considering using the existing logging trail as a "spine" of the plots...may plant the entire trail with small openings where possible making a line of inter connected micro plots? Not sure yet. Waterholes and strategic licking branches are also great considerations for the margins of the "plot trail".

Soft mast trees would certainly fill a void on the property and the surrounding area as far as i can tell there aren't any apples of any sort...and definitely not in any concentration.

Thanks for the ideas! Lots of things to consider!

 

[phil@thesidehill]

Hey Phil,
The one thing I know has helped to keep deer on our property at camp is spruce plantings. Our Norway & white spruces are planted in groups and sprinkled in more random plantings. They provided thermal cover and security for the deer in daylight hours. Since we planted them ( starting 19 yrs. ago, & continuing today ) we see more deer during hunting hours whether driving or sitting in stands. Excellent windbreak. When planted on a S or SE facing area, it becomes a good bedding area in colder weather. If you can incorporate some spruce plantings, I think you'll see increased use by deer and all kinds of birds, grouse. My camp's in Lyco. Good luck & have fun w/ it.

Thanks BnB! I certainly like the idea of some spruce plantings....especially since the property has a mostly SE exposure. We have kicked up a few grouse already on the few walkabouts we have done so far.

 

[Buckly]

I also like putting access road around the perimeter. I would put up 4 stands. One on each side and keep the middle as sanctuary however you see fit. Using spruce and hinge cutting is a good idea. I would also plant apple trees around the stands. There's only so much you can do so build around what is there.

 

[chickenlittle]

For that size property, I would have to base much of what I do on the neighbors. If there is good bedding there, I'd focus on giving them food during hunting season. That would mean a few apples, crabapples, and persimmons. Maybe a few chestnuts. Some really thick bedding in the middle might be nice when deer a looking for a safe spot during rifle season.

With the way the hemlocks are going downhill, starting some spruce and pine would be a good idea for thermal cover in 10 years.

 

[phil@thesidehill]

For that size property, I would have to base much of what I do on the neighbors. If there is good bedding there, I'd focus on giving them food during hunting season. That would mean a few apples, crabapples, and persimmons. Maybe a few chestnuts. Some really thick bedding in the middle might be nice when deer a looking for a safe spot during rifle season.

With the way the hemlocks are going downhill, starting some spruce and pine would be a good idea for thermal cover in 10 years.

thanks Chickenlittle! Are those hops in your profile? I love hops! What part of columbia county are you in? I completely agree on the neighbors. Thats part of the reason I want to hunt at least one season before starting anything major....I want to witness the neighboring pressure.

 

[Ben.MN/WI]

I agree with chickenlittle. Since there appears to be a lot of cover in the area, I would concentrate on food. I would make a 1/2 to 1 acre food plot on the center of the property and then add some access trails that lead to the food source. Use some hinge cutting to funnel the deer through a few access points on these access trails for different wind directions. Since it sounds like he has a relatively long term plan, I would also add some apple trees. Perhaps add them along the perimeter of the main plot or along the access trails and remember to fence them off if you have a lot of bears. You can kill some deer off 20 acres, but you'll just need to look at what is lacking in the neighborhood. After looking at the aerial photos, I'd say that's food. Perhaps you can add some shrubs along the perimeter of the food plot - I like plums, red osier dogwood and maybe some crabapples. The shrubs will also help you out with grouse hunting. Perhaps add a few flowering crabapples around the perimeter of his yard since they are a good late season grouse food source. I'd also throw in a couple of random spruce patches near the shrubs for additional grouse hunting opportunities. I have land in northern WI and I try to kill two birds with one stone by trying to plant shrubs and trees that benefit both grouse and deer. Have fun and keep us posted.

 

[phil@thesidehill]

I also like putting access road around the perimeter. I would put up 4 stands. One on each side and keep the middle as sanctuary however you see fit. Using spruce and hinge cutting is a good idea. I would also plant apple trees around the stands. There's only so much you can do so build around what is there.

thanks buckly!

I think apples are definitely going to play into the plan.

 

[j-bird]

Looking at the posts (including my own) - I see we are missing something. WHAT DOES THE OWNER WANT? WHAT IS THE OWNER WILLING TO DO? We can plan all we want - it can be the best piece of deer habitat in the country - the owner could still be grossly disappointed and overwhelmed. Is the owner willing to maintain trails, trees or foodplots? Is he OK with cutting down trees, hinging or creatin trails? Building it and caring for it can be different things - especially as the owner gets older. I have seen it first hand how habitat improvement changes as we age. It's easy to do it when we are younger, but becomes increasingly more difficult with age. Sometimes getting help isn't that easy either.

How many people do you know that love the "idea" of a garden, but when it comes down to the "work" of the garden there is knowone to be found?

 

[phil@thesidehill]

Looking at the posts (including my own) - I see we are missing something. WHAT DOES THE OWNER WANT? WHAT IS THE OWNER WILLING TO DO? We can plan all we want - it can be the best piece of deer habitat in the country - the owner could still be grossly disappointed and overwhelmed. Is the owner willing to maintain trails, trees or foodplots? Is he OK with cutting down trees, hinging or creatin trails? Building it and caring for it can be different things - especially as the owner gets older. I have seen it first hand how habitat improvement changes as we age. It's easy to do it when we are younger, but becomes increasingly more difficult with age. Sometimes getting help isn't that easy either.

How many people do you know that love the "idea" of a garden, but when it comes down to the "work" of the garden there is knowone to be found?

Excellent observation j-bird....i love the garden analogy...my wife and I wanted a garden....I....built, planted, and cared for the garden..lol. Nothing against her...we have a now 10 month old at home so she (we) have our hands full.

But I will cut and paste below from my original post and that may answer some of your questions, or at least allude to the overall attitude of my friend, the property owner. we have had many a long conversation about goals and objectives. I strongly believe that goals and objectives have to be firmly grounded in reality in order for success. This purchase was not a spur of the moment deal for him. He has been looking at properties with some measure of seriousness in this area for about 12 yrs. He ended up having a bit of a financial windfall about 3 yrs ago that put him in a much better cash position to pull the trigger on a purchase, so the property hunt became much more serious in the last 3 yrs. Over that time we spent alot of time discussing goals and objectives.....I believe we are on the same page. as far as the work goes...I will also probably be shouldering alot of that personally. As i said...he is currently an absentee landowner, so he can only do so much. He also knows and understands, that i have a young family and a demanding job, so my time is not abundant. he is aware that this is a long term effort. He has 3 other guys that will be a part of "deer camp". I have met them all, and they are all about pitching in any way they can. As far as the level of impact on the on the property, he understands and is approving of cutting trees, hingecutting, and other types of "shock and awe" methods that have significant aesthetic impact. But clear cutting the property is not a consideration.

"My friend is not a die hard habitat guy like those of us here on the forum. that said, he has hunted my property, and a mutual friend's farm in NY that i help manage. So he has seen habitat management and deer management in action...and he is all about doing whatever is possible to improve the 21 acres."

"This property will NOT be managed extensively for mature buck hunting. This property will be managed for overall deer huntability. My friend simply has not harvested many bucks and really does not have an interest in holding out for a mature buck. His property, his call and I am perfectly cool with that."

"The overall goal is NOT making a mature buck factory. We want to increase overall deer usage of the property in general and specifically during legal shooting hours with huntability. "

I think that the fact that we are not focused on making a mature buck "factory", and that buck harvest goals are going to be centered more on a "what makes you happy" type of philosophy also takes alot of the potential for pressure and complexity of the management plan. We just want to make the property more attractive to deer....any deer...and make it huntable. In conversations with the other guys, they will be tickled pink to sit in a stand or blind and see some deer...shooting or not shooting is secondary.

 

[j-bird]

That's cool Phil - I just noticed (even in my own post) that we tend to sort of loose control and things quickly snowball.

My wife wants a garden every year. Yap, yap, yap - "Oh the fresh veggies", "the wonderful learning experience for the kids", "the reduced grocery bill". Every year its the same thing. Every year we have this discussion, "I'll build it, and I'll plant it." "You have to care for it, water it and weed it." "If you don't, I'll bush-hog it." We have NEVER had a garden! Don't get me started about the pool!

 

[phil@thesidehill]

That's cool Phil - I just noticed (even in my own post) that we tend to sort of loose control and things quickly snowball.

My wife wants a garden every year. Yap, yap, yap - "Oh the fresh veggies", "the wonderful learning experience for the kids", "the reduced grocery bill". Every year its the same thing. Every year we have this discussion, "I'll build it, and I'll plant it." "You have to care for it, water it and weed it." "If you don't, I'll bush-hog it." We have NEVER had a garden! Don't get me started about the pool!

Haha..classic. The wife picked up one of the inflatable pools with the filter and the pump from a friend of hers that was giving it away....I knew instantly my workload just increased without any recourse..lol. I figure i'm just banking up hunting points right?!?!

 

[j-bird]

Yep - "building up points" - sure, you just keep telling yourself that! Maybe big-foot will come over and help you as well, maybe he will be riding a unicorn!

Add water to the pool, test the water in the pool, cover the pool, uncover the pool, clean the pool, clean/change the filter, buy filters, buy chemicals, add the chemicals - yep pools are fun for the whole family - except YOU!

I got your new call-sign!

Phil@THEPOOLBOY
status: SCREWED!

Might as well laugh -cause nobody like a cry-baby!

 

[phil@thesidehill]

Yep - "building up points" - sure, you just keep telling yourself that! Maybe big-foot will come over and help you as well, maybe he will be riding a unicorn!

Add water to the pool, test the water in the pool, cover the pool, uncover the pool, clean the pool, clean/change the filter, buy filters, buy chemicals, add the chemicals - yep pools are fun for the whole family - except YOU!

I got your new call-sign!

Phil@THEPOOLBOY
status: SCREWED!

Might as well laugh -cause nobody like a cry-baby!

lmfbo!!!

Hey Big Foot and a Unicorn have been on the hitlist for a long time! I'll get full body mounts on both....the wife will love to have them in the house...lol!

 

[wiscwhip]

phil, can you post an actual topographic map of the place?

 

[phil@thesidehill]

phil, can you post an actual topographic map of the place?

I'll see if i can get a topo to edit.