Spraying clethodim on frost seeded clover

[cspot]

First, I'm an advocate of weed tolerance. Frost seeding lends itself to more weeds than does fall planting of perennial clover with a WR nurse crop. Many broadleaf weeds are better deer food than the crops we plant. A weed is simply a plant growing where you don't want it. Anything growing other than what a farmer planted in the field is a weed to a farmer as it reduces his yield and profit. That is not tree to folks planting for deer. Having said that, some weeds are problematic and need to be addressed.

So, next time, start your plot in the fall with a nurse crop and save frost seeding clover to hit any bare spots in your fall plant. The combination of WR and timely spring mowing to release the clover will let you start with a cleaner plot.

But, you are where you are. So, my advice would be to use Cleth to address the foxtail and not try to kill other broadleaf plants unless you have a specific one that is problematic. The younger the foxtail the more susceptible to Cleth it will be. I've tried the general herbicide approach on clover and found that it was costly and did not improve things from a deer perspective at all. Depending on location, weeds can also have a protective effect on clover during the hot summer months. My fields now look so bad in the summer that from a distance you would not even suspect there was clover in them. Come fall, just before our season, I'll mow them. The rain and cool nights favor the clover and it bounces back strong. Deer use my "dirty" plots just as much as when I had a monoculture of clover.

Thanks,

Jack

I agree that frost seeding isn't the best way to start a new plot. However if you can't get the equipment or don't have the equipment then I think you have to do the best you can. Another example beyond equipment is at our camp we have a field right by the cabin. The ground has a pretty good slope and drains right to my driveway and cabin. If I tilled or even sprayed to kill everything, I would have a mud issue to deal with when it rained. I frost seeded this past winter. Mowed it off a week ago for the 2nd time and will hit with imox this weekend. In addition I will overseed it this weekend as well. Not the best, but this is the best way I know to keep from having an issue. I have done this before in a couple of plots that I couldn't till and while it isn't the cheapest way to start a plot it will work. I end up putting on a lot more seed than I would if I could till. More than likely I will frost seed again this winter in any weak spots.

 

[yoderjac]

I agree that frost seeding isn't the best way to start a new plot. However if you can't get the equipment or don't have the equipment then I think you have to do the best you can. Another example beyond equipment is at our camp we have a field right by the cabin. The ground has a pretty good slope and drains right to my driveway and cabin. If I tilled or even sprayed to kill everything, I would have a mud issue to deal with when it rained. I frost seeded this past winter. Mowed it off a week ago for the 2nd time and will hit with imox this weekend. In addition I will overseed it this weekend as well. Not the best, but this is the best way I know to keep from having an issue. I have done this before in a couple of plots that I couldn't till and while it isn't the cheapest way to start a plot it will work. I end up putting on a lot more seed than I would if I could till. More than likely I will frost seed again this winter in any weak spots.

Equipment should not be an issue when planting clover. It does great with T&M techniques. You can plant perennial clover with a winter rye cover crop with the same equipment you use to frost seed. A sprayer and a broadcast spreader. Some way to cultipack or roll enhances germination but is not required. The difference is timing. Perennial clover spends most of its energy putting down a root system at first. Once that root system is established, it puts more energy into top growth. When you plant clover in the fall with a WR nurse crop, the clover does little more than germinate that fall. The WR is the attractant in that fall plot for deer and hunting. The key is that much of the clover seed germinates in the fall. So, the following spring, the clover gets a jump on annual weed seed because it is already germinated. Also, WR has an chemical effect on the germination of many weed seeds. It also takes up space and resources in the field that help suppress weeds while the clover is putting down the root system that first spring.

Depending on the rate you used for WR and the fertility of your soil, you will want to mow back the WR that first spring each time it hits a foot or so. This will keep the WR alive and suppressing weeds, but allow sunlight to get to the clover releasing it. The WR will die on its own during the summer but by then the clover should be established pretty well.

If you feel your fall planted germination rates are not as good as you would like, there is nothing wrong with Frost seeding over top of the fall planted field. Frost seeding (I'm sure you know this... but for new folks) depends on the freeze/thaw cycle which causes micro-fissures in the soil and sucks the clover to the germination level.

One final consideration:

There are regional factors involved. Some folks have much less issue with summer weeds than others. So, if weeds are less of an issue for you, then fall planting of perennial clover may be less important. But when folks talk about using herbicides to kill weeds in clover, the first thought that comes to mind is to use planting techniques that reduce weed competition to start with. The second thought is to make sure what is commonly called a "weed" to a farmer, is really a "weed" from a deer perspective.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[cspot]

Equipment should not be an issue when planting clover. It does great with T&M techniques. You can plant perennial clover with a winter rye cover crop with the same equipment you use to frost seed. A sprayer and a broadcast spreader. Some way to cultipack or roll enhances germination but is not required. The difference is timing. Perennial clover spends most of its energy putting down a root system at first. Once that root system is established, it puts more energy into top growth. When you plant clover in the fall with a WR nurse crop, the clover does little more than germinate that fall. The WR is the attractant in that fall plot for deer and hunting. The key is that much of the clover seed germinates in the fall. So, the following spring, the clover gets a jump on annual weed seed because it is already germinated. Also, WR has an chemical effect on the germination of many weed seeds. It also takes up space and resources in the field that help suppress weeds while the clover is putting down the root system that first spring.

Depending on the rate you used for WR and the fertility of your soil, you will want to mow back the WR that first spring each time it hits a foot or so. This will keep the WR alive and suppressing weeds, but allow sunlight to get to the clover releasing it. The WR will die on its own during the summer but by then the clover should be established pretty well.

If you feel your fall planted germination rates are not as good as you would like, there is nothing wrong with Frost seeding over top of the fall planted field. Frost seeding (I'm sure you know this... but for new folks) depends on the freeze/thaw cycle which causes micro-fissures in the soil and sucks the clover to the germination level.

One final consideration:

There are regional factors involved. Some folks have much less issue with summer weeds than others. So, if weeds are less of an issue for you, then fall planting of perennial clover may be less important. But when folks talk about using herbicides to kill weeds in clover, the first thought that comes to mind is to use planting techniques that reduce weed competition to start with. The second thought is to make sure what is commonly called a "weed" to a farmer, is really a "weed" from a deer perspective.

Thanks,

Jack

Fall plots without tilling have been hit and miss in my opinion and mostly not the best in my experience. Likely do the difficulty in getting good soil contact and often not getting enough rainfall to get it going quickly. This can result in alot of weeds too. Fall plots with tilling I have had much better luck with and I agree in that case you usually have less weeds than a Spring planting. Still with clover plots you are going to have to battle weeds within a couple of years no matter how you plant it. That either leaves spraying or replanting every 4-6 years.

 

[yoderjac]

Fall plots without tilling have been hit and miss in my opinion and mostly not the best in my experience. Likely do the difficulty in getting good soil contact and often not getting enough rainfall to get it going quickly. This can result in alot of weeds too. Fall plots with tilling I have had much better luck with and I agree in that case you usually have less weeds than a Spring planting. Still with clover plots you are going to have to battle weeds within a couple of years no matter how you plant it. That either leaves spraying or replanting every 4-6 years.

I fall plant my clover with a WR nurse crop. I use Durana in my area which is very slow to establish. With my heavy clay soil, I sometimes have to do min-tillage because the soils crusts. I use a tiller on my tractor and lift it so high the tines barely touch the top inch. As my soil health is improving from reduced tillage, crusting is becoming less of an issue. In my area cool season weeds are not an issue. Clover and WR compete very well with them. Every place is a little different and you are right that seed/soil contact can be an issue with no till. A cultipacker can resolve that if you have one. A lawn roller will work too. It is always best to plant before a good rain regardless of the technique, but no-till has the advantage here. When you till, you lose soil moisture as well as destroying the tilth of the soil as well as disrupting the microbiology and burning OM adn a higher rate. Less tillage in depth and frequency is better for soil health and nutrient cycling.

I mow my WR in the spring each time it begins to shade out the clover. That establishes a pretty lean plot. It is a better approach than frost seeding because you can always frost seed on top of it. At least some of the fall planted clover will have the advantage over summer weeds and the WR really helps control weeds.

I don't use any herbicides after the initial burn-down with gly. I tolerate weeds in clover and after establishment, I just mow before the season. By year 3 or 4 you can't tell there is clover in the plot from afar because of the summer weeds. Yet when I mow just before the season the clover bounces back strong. The clover is there, just shaded from the worst of the summer sun by weeds. Deer use my weedy plots just as much as they used to use my clean ones when I was fighting weeds with herbicides.

Durana is drought resistant and persistent. In my area it does not go dormant in the summer on normal years. In dry years it goes dormant for a short time. When I get to year 6 or 7, weeds are dominating the field. At that point, I cycle to an N-seeking crop for a year if I have time. If not, I spray the field with gly at 1 qt/ac. It is enough to kill the grasses and top kill the clover. I then drill radish and WR into the clover. I have a small no-till drill I use for this, but other folks report success surface broadcasting. I do this in the fall when we have a good rain in the forecast.

The drilled seeds germinate and get started before the clover bounces back from the root system. I just posted these on another thread but they are relevant here:

You can see the clover bounce back from the root system and fill in around the radish. The following spring the radish is gone and the clover is fairly clean again. Clover, like all legumes, fix nitrogen from the air back into the soil. Grasses seek nitrogen so the older a clover field gets the more attractive it is to grasses. Nature abhors a monoculture. I typically get another 3 to 5 years out of the field but eventually I have to find time to cycle the field into a non-legume to use up some of the N before I can replant clover again.

Thanks,

Jack