Soil fundamentals library

[SD51555]

Is it possible that certain microbes become extinct from a localized area due to poor management practices and a lack of suitable habitat?? Meaning that they may need to be reintroduced through an inoculant even once the soil habitat is restored??

On our scale, I don't think so. I don't think we can get a 100% kill on bacterial or fungal, but we can seriously knock it back and keep it knocked back with repeated efforts. I think once we change tactics, things will find their way back by creeping in from the edge of the work area, on the hooves and feet of critters, blowing debris, droppings, etc. When we're talking billions of organisms in a spec of dirt under a single fingernail, it doesn't take much stuff moving around to re-populate an area.

 

[SD51555]

Fall/Winter: WR, WW, CC, AWP, PTT, Radish
Spring/Summer: Milo, Cowpeas, BW (BW has been a bust for my area, cannot withstand the heat and drought for my area)

Main challenge for summer plots is finding something that can withstand the heat and drought for my area. Also something to keep in mind, I am trying to find all seed locally. Some things recommended from here, I am not able to find locally.

Here's a long shot idea, and I can't say I've thought this all the way through in terms of durability, risk of it becoming weedy, and ability to terminate and transition, but --- yellow sweet clover. You can order that in, because you don't need very many pounds. That seems to grow gangbusters in arid regions, but it isn't drought proof. Another one would be the vetch family. I'm not up on dry tolerant vetch varieties though.

I've been trying to get yellow sweet clover going on my place a few different times and never could. I think I've got it now, and I'm excited to see how it goes. This is what I want in my nursery plot.

 

[BrushyPines]

Here's a long shot idea, and I can't say I've thought this all the way through in terms of durability, risk of it becoming weedy, and ability to terminate and transition, but --- yellow sweet clover. You can order that in, because you don't need very many pounds. That seems to grow gangbusters in arid regions, but it isn't drought proof. Another one would be the vetch family. I'm not up on dry tolerant vetch varieties though.

I've been trying to get yellow sweet clover going on my place a few different times and never could. I think I've got it now, and I'm excited to see how it goes. This is what I want in my nursery plot.

Thanks SD! Read up on that and it says yellow sweet clover will not tolerate acidic soils. I have sandy soil, PH ranging from 5.0-5.5. You think it would grow well in my soil?

 

[SD51555]

Thanks SD! Read up on that and it says yellow sweet clover will not tolerate acidic soils. I have sandy soil, PH ranging from 5.0-5.5. You think it would grow well in my soil?

I'd certainly try it, and I'd try it yet this fall if you've got room in the blend or haven't put in your fall plots yet. You might have some luck broadcasting now that the blast furnace days of summer are past their peak. That's an interesting note on the acidic soils. That would explain why it does so well out west.

5 lb bag is $30 + shipping @ Green Cover: https://store.greencover.com/produc...clover-omri-nitro-coat?variant=42918506299608

I also wouldn't rule out trying some white clover and chicory. It may still go dormant in summer, but it might go quite a ways into summer with the rye to help protect it. Those deep chicory roots might help your other stuff get down deeper as well.

 

[SD51555]

Thanks SD! Read up on that and it says yellow sweet clover will not tolerate acidic soils. I have sandy soil, PH ranging from 5.0-5.5. You think it would grow well in my

As far as pH goes, can you get some lime spread yet? When you need to lime, having sandy soil is a huge advantage. 2000-3000 lbs/ac of dolomitic pell lime will bring that up quite a bit

 

[omicron1792]

Fall/Winter: WR, WW, CC, AWP, PTT, Radish
Spring/Summer: Milo, Cowpeas, BW (BW has been a bust for my area, cannot withstand the heat and drought for my area)

Main challenge for summer plots is finding something that can withstand the heat and drought for my area. Also something to keep in mind, I am trying to find all seed locally. Some things recommended from here, I am not able to find locally.

Buckwheat by itself or with sun hemp was a bust for me too. Adding it to a mix has been great.

Sorghum x Sudan has grown like gangbusters for me. I also mix regular sorghum, millet, sunn hemp and cow peas. Haven’t had much luck with soybeans in my mixture.



Gonna experiment with deer vetch and alyceclover next summer.

 

[omicron1792]

This was actually birdseed with some sorghum x Sudan mixed.

 

[Crimson n' Camo]

On our scale, I don't think so. I don't think we can get a 100% kill on bacterial or fungal, but we can seriously knock it back and keep it knocked back with repeated efforts. I think once we change tactics, things will find their way back by creeping in from the edge of the work area, on the hooves and feet of critters, blowing debris, droppings, etc. When we're talking billions of organisms in a spec of dirt under a single fingernail, it doesn't take much stuff moving around to re-populate an area.

Are there some plant and microbial species that only exist in "climax prairies" I guess you would call it??

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

Fall/Winter: WR, WW, CC, AWP, PTT, Radish
Spring/Summer: Milo, Cowpeas, BW (BW has been a bust for my area, cannot withstand the heat and drought for my area)

Main challenge for summer plots is finding something that can withstand the heat and drought for my area. Also something to keep in mind, I am trying to find all seed locally. Some things recommended from here, I am not able to find locally.

Sanfoin and chicory sound like just the ticket to me.


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[TreeDaddy]

Fall/Winter: WR, WW, CC, AWP, PTT, Radish
Spring/Summer: Milo, Cowpeas, BW (BW has been a bust for my area, cannot withstand the heat and drought for my area)

Main challenge for summer plots is finding something that can withstand the heat and drought for my area. Also something to keep in mind, I am trying to find all seed locally. Some things recommended from here, I am not able to find locally.

This is where the local co op shines

They will tell you what Legumes, grains,"greens","browns",etc will grow in your area

I cant grow buckwheat(or red clover,any perennial clover) either

i can grow WR,oats,arrowleaf,crimson clover with the best of them!

bill

 

[TreeDaddy]

Thanks SD! Read up on that and it says yellow sweet clover will not tolerate acidic soils. I have sandy soil, PH ranging from 5.0-5.5. You think it would grow well in my soil?

Lime,lime,lime........and in 2 years lime some more

bill

 

[omicron1792]

Are there some plant and microbial species that only exist in "climax prairies" I guess you would call it??

What’s the harm of throwing some inoculant in every time you plant?

 

[omicron1792]

Lime,lime,lime........and in 2 years lime some more

bill

The more I go I think this is less and less the answer for food plotters.

Adding lime is trying to make the soil something it is not to grow things not built to grow well in that area. Adding some early to jump start process is ok to me but adding lime all the time to make field something it’s not doesn’t seem to fit the regenerative ag model imo.

Finding plants that flourish in the local environment and letting soil heal and balance itself feels like a better plan. Again just way I think of it.

 

[SD51555]

Are there some plant and microbial species that only exist in "climax prairies" I guess you would call it??

I would think so. One of the genius things in nature are things ability to go dormant and hang on for years and years for conditions to change for that certain thing to re-emerge. Greg Judy on Youtube has brought back warm season grass species he's not seen in his neighborhood for many years. He'll do some liming from time to time on new pastures and then get to mob grazing them like they used to be before man. Those seeds had to be lying there dormant for a very long time. I would image when it comes to microbes, their populations would drop down to very low levels, but they'd find a way to hang on or move in from elsewhere.

 

[SD51555]

The more I go I think this is less and less the answer for food plotters.

Adding lime is trying to make the soil something it is not to grow things not built to grow well in that area. Adding some early to jump start process is ok to me but adding lime all the time to make field something it’s not doesn’t seem to fit the regenerative ag model imo.

Finding plants that flourish in the local environment and letting soil heal and balance itself feels like a better plan. Again just way I think of it.

That's where I'm at. I can't stand lime work. That's one of the big reasons I went down this do-less path. I didn't want to spread lime in the hottest months of the year only to turn right around and pour acidifying amendments right back on it. I haven't seen it yet, but I'd love to see some data from these long term no-fertilizer guys on how their pH has held up over a number of years. I bet it's fairly well if not completely stable.

I've said for a while that I think pH is often blamed for what is really misdiagnosed fallow syndrome.

 

[Foggy47]

Here's a long shot idea, and I can't say I've thought this all the way through in terms of durability, risk of it becoming weedy, and ability to terminate and transition, but --- yellow sweet clover. You can order that in, because you don't need very many pounds. That seems to grow gangbusters in arid regions, but it isn't drought proof. Another one would be the vetch family. I'm not up on dry tolerant vetch varieties though.

I've been trying to get yellow sweet clover going on my place a few different times and never could. I think I've got it now, and I'm excited to see how it goes. This is what I want in my nursery plot.

According to the Banjo music in that video.....you likely gotta be south of the Mason / Dixon to grow that sweet clover. Grin

 

[omicron1792]

That's where I'm at. I can't stand lime work. That's one of the big reasons I went down this do-less path. I didn't want to spread lime in the hottest months of the year only to turn right around and pour acidifying amendments right back on it. I haven't seen it yet, but I'd love to see some data from these long term no-fertilizer guys on how their pH has held up over a number of years. I bet it's fairly well if not completely stable.

I've said for a while that I think pH is often blamed for what is really misdiagnosed fallow syndrome.

Grant woods hasn’t used lime in years and his soil stays at 7 using multi species summer and fall plantings with no till.

He uses pellet lime on a new plot to get things growing.

 

[Foggy47]

Grant woods hasn’t used lime in years and his soil stays at 7 using multi species summer and fall plantings with no till.

Most of my better food plots were limed over 10 years ago. I used Dolomitic (quarry) lime. Those older plots look far better than my newer plot ground I added after logging about 5 years ago. My crops thrive in those areas that were limed. My PH remains nearly 7. I have added a bit of pell lime and fertilizers over the years when trying to grow corn.....but for the most part those lands still thrive from the one-time lime efforts . (I put down over 2 tons per acre back then.). I have my EZ Flow lime buggy yet......So I think I will plan for one more good application of lime to the newer areas and perhaps a few lbs to the existing plots too (as I will have a 23 ton load to apply).

 

[TreeDaddy]

That's where I'm at. I can't stand lime work. That's one of the big reasons I went down this do-less path. I didn't want to spread lime in the hottest months of the year only to turn right around and pour acidifying amendments right back on it. I haven't seen it yet, but I'd love to see some data from these long term no-fertilizer guys on how their pH has held up over a number of years. I bet it's fairly well if not completely stable.

I've said for a while that I think pH is often blamed for what is really misdiagnosed fallow syndrome.

What about lime to “ prime the pump” to get native/ multi species started?

Tell us more about misdiagnosed fallow syndrome?

Love learning about this stuff

bill

 

[SD51555]

What about lime to “ prime the pump” to get native/ multi species started?

Tell us more about misdiagnosed fallow syndrome?

Love learning about this stuff

bill

I’ve limed spots I’ve cleared with the saw for the purpose of releasing and regenerating browse and cover. I can’t say it’s made a huge difference because the plants that were there were already naturally best fit for that spot. It certainly hasn’t hurt though.

I still lime when I start a new plot. Every spot I’ve ever tested (that wasn’t wet) had a starting pH of 5.5-5.6. I also lime when I see an aggressive pocket of horsetail. Jury is still out on whether high rates of calcium can weaken sedge in aerobic soil.

If we plant something and it germinates and just doesn’t look good or come very fast, it’s easy to jump to the conclusion that the pH is too low. In really good soils it isn’t such a big issue because a person can get by on OM mineralization. In low OM, cold, or dry soils, it can leave ya scratching your head.

Fallow syndrome is diagnosed when we see purple plants after emergence. It’s an accurate diagnosis, but the impacts of fallow syndrome are far greater than a shortage of phosphorus. A large part of the biological nutrient cycle is currently off-line. The purple leaves are the one symptom we can see. This is why, coming off a fallow, starter fertilizer has to be placed so close that the seed root can reach it on the little fuel that came with the seed, but not so close that it burns the roots.


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