Smokeless Powder Muzzleloader

[yoderjac]

I'd like to get some opinions from folks who have used a smokeless powder muzzleloader. They are legal in my state. I currently have a TC Encore Pro Hunter Muzzleloader. I recently bought a .300 Win Mag barrel for it. http://habitat-talk.com/index.php?threads/tc-encore-pro-hunter-300-win-mag-thoughts.11663/ I decided I didn't want to swap barrels back and forth, so I just bought another stock/receiver/forearm so now I have two independent guns. While I was at my buddy's picking up the new stock/receiver/forearm (he had the FFL), he told me there are 3rd parties making smokeless powder barrels for it.

Here are my questions:

1) Without respect to the specific firearm, how do you like a smokeless powder firearm compared to a black powder equivalent muzzleloader?

2) Does anyone have any experience with the TC Encore Pro Hunter with an Arrowhead smokeless barrel? Pros and Cons?

In general, I realize smokeless powder and a custom barrel increase the range and accuracy, but in my hunting situation, a shot beyond 100-150 yards would be rare during our muzzleloader season. While that would be a benefit, it would be fairly minor for me. I have had a number of situations where the smoke cloud has occluded the deer's escape route. Tracking can be difficult without a good direction to begin looking for blood. Beyond the impact sight, it is not uncommon for the first blood to be 50 yards or more away. If I seed the deer's escape route, I have a few degrees of angle to search for blood. If there is no breeze when I shoot, I can be searching 360 degrees. In fact last year, I almost lost a deer. Two deer came into the field and I shot at one. I did see the deer leave the field on the edge of the smoke cloud. After a long hard search, I finally realized it was the wrong deer that I saw run and the deer I shot ran in a completely different direction. For me, I think this might be the biggest benefit, but I'd like to hear what others have to say on range, accuracy, and anything else as well.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[hillrunner]

I use a savage smokeless. The consistency and accuracy of that gun is light years ahead of the black powder guns I've used in the past. It hits the same spot every time, you could probably go years between cleanings if you wanted to without losing accuracy or any danger of a misfire.

 

[yoderjac]

I use a savage smokeless. The consistency and accuracy of that gun is light years ahead of the black powder guns I've used in the past. It hits the same spot every time, you could probably go years between cleanings if you wanted to without losing accuracy or any danger of a misfire.

Good to hear. I can't find the savage any more on their website. For some reason, it looks like they discontinued it. When I searched for it I found a few references to loads for it, but that was it. Cleaning my old muzzleloader was a PITA but with the hand removable breach plug it isn't too bad. Still much worse than a modern firearm.

What did the savage cost you?

Thanks,

Jack

 

[hillrunner]

Good to hear. I can't find the savage any more on their website. For some reason, it looks like they discontinued it. When I searched for it I found a few references to loads for it, but that was it. Cleaning my old muzzleloader was a PITA but with the hand removable breach plug it isn't too bad. Still much worse than a modern firearm.

What did the savage cost you?

Thanks,

Jack

I bought mine several years ago. I think I paid around $800. Savage discontinued the gun. If I remember correctly, I think it was fear of liability. The problem was that occasionally people would try to load it with the same amount of smokeless powder as they would black powder. The result is a blown up barrel.

 

[elknturkey]

They would actually double load, (powder, bullet, powder, bullet) and buldge/split the barrel. Lot of good options out just depends on what you wanna pay and what specs you're wanting. I got a new ultra light before Melvin Forbes quit making them. Weighs next to nothing and stupid accurate. Weight was my biggest thing as we backpack in a lot 6-8 miles

 

[Booner21]

Not sure how far you want to shoot but a cva 45/70 can be converted for under 800 about the cost of a tc barrel. It will get you to 300 easy if you want to go further a bolt gun is needed. 4 builders come to mine as who I would look at to build one Jeff Hankins, bestill cresting Jeff Fisk, Hollis Webber centerpunch, or Luke at asg.

I have a savage 50 cal and 200 yards isn’t much effort I bought it right before I quit gun hunting. I would like to say I have killed a bunch of deer with it but I haven’t. It spent a lot of time in the safe, my boy started hunting with it last year and shot 2 deer brought the fun back to gun hunting again for me.

I am having a 45 built by Hollis as we speak. Hope it will be done by this deer season. We are in IL and are a shotgun or ml state only.


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[yoderjac]

Interesting. Having more distance is nice, but It is not a must. I would say 95% of my shot opportunities are under 100 yards and 98% are under 200 yards. 300 yards would be as much as I would ever need unless I decide to travel to hunt during retirement. I have not had any bug to travel to hunt so far. Where have you seen TC barrels for around $800. I've just done a casual scan and saw that Arrowhead wants $1,100 - $1,200 for a TC barrel.

I can't imagine buying one for this season with everything else I've got going on, but I'm starting to look into smokeless options for a possible post season buy. I haven't seen much in stock guns like the Savage was. Most of what I'm seeing is conversions or custom builds.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[DavidHunter2001]

I Had my TC Encore converted by Hankins Custom rifles. He replaced the barrel and put a nice primer module system which uses standard rifle primers in a brass case for ignition. It works well. Just make sure you mark your ramrod and check it EVERY time. Its really nice to not have to clean it every time you shoot it.

 

[yoderjac]

I Had my TC Encore converted by Hankins Custom rifles. He replaced the barrel and put a nice primer module system which uses standard rifle primers in a brass case for ignition. It works well. Just make sure you mark your ramrod and check it EVERY time. Its really nice to not have to clean it every time you shoot it.

Thanks! Tell me some more about it. What did it cost you? Did it come with a brake? Did he make any other mods to the TC (forearm, etc)? Does it use 209 primers or are you describing something similar to the Arrowhead LRM (Large Rifle Modules). One thing that concerned me about the Arrow head system is that they said the modules only give you about 20 shots before they need to be replaced. My concern with a custom system like this that uses expendable modules to hold the primer is that if the company goes out of business, there may no longer be a source for them. I guess one could always change out the breach plug. How is yours for accuracy?

You are definitely correct about a reference mark on the rod. I had another issue with a misfire with my old Omega that scared the daylights out of me. I loaded it using pellets and hunted. I planned to hunt the next day so I just pulled the primer and left it on my ATV in the shed. The next day, I pulled the trigger on a fat doe and the primer went off but the pellets did not ignite. I had always been taught (and taught in my Hunter Ed classes) to simply put another primer in and try again. DON'T DO THAT WHEN USING PELLETS! I was able to put another primer in and fired again. Again, the pellets did not ignite (AND I"M GLAD THEY DIDN'T). That night I removed the breach plug to unload and clean it. The pellets had picked up moisture overnight and that is why the did not ignite. Pellets have a hole down the middle. The 209 primer had enough energy to go through the hole and push the bullet half way down the barrel. If the pellets had ignited on the second try, the air gap would have likely caused the gun to blow up in my face!

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Booner21]

Interesting. Having more distance is nice, but It is not a must. I would say 95% of my shot opportunities are under 100 yards and 98% are under 200 yards. 300 yards would be as much as I would ever need unless I decide to travel to hunt during retirement. I have not had any bug to travel to hunt so far. Where have you seen TC barrels for around $800. I've just done a casual scan and saw that Arrowhead wants $1,100 - $1,200 for a TC barrel.

I can't imagine buying one for this season with everything else I've got going on, but I'm starting to look into smokeless options for a possible post season buy. I haven't seen much in stock guns like the Savage was. Most of what I'm seeing is conversions or custom builds.

Thanks,

Jack

I may be off on the price I was thinking Jeff had them in stock at one time. I haven’t looked in about 12 months. There isn’t a stock weapon that will shoot smokeless still in production. Savage would be your route but for the price they are getting would be better off to have one converted for less than that and take advantage of not needing a sabot also a good percentage of savages didn’t shoot like they claimed and required sent back for barrels.


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[DavidHunter2001]

I believe it was around $800 which included a new barrel and 50 primer modules (they don't wear out) , which can be reloaded with a Large rifle primer many times. I would bet there are long waits now no matter where you go so I wouldn't count on a quick delivery.

 

[swat1018]

I've shot smokeless for a long time. Since the advent of the Savage. All of my buddies have or had them, and I set them all up. They are a great system, obvious advantage is little cleaning or corrosion, no smoke cloud, can taylor a load for youth with little kick, or a "magnum" style load. It does come with a price, it isn't like shooting a ML with pellets. Super-accuracy isn't achieved without plenty of testing, usually. There are a lot of components and combinations of components. What one rifle likes, another may not. In general, each charge is best of weighed out, not just dipped with a powder dipper. There is more work up front to develop a load your rifle likes, and if you usually shoot pellets, more work measuring out charges as you go.

The Savage ML went out of business through lack of marketing. The rifle was always like the forgotten step-child, they never did TRY to sell it, it just sold with no advertising or marketing. At some point, it wasn't worth their effort anymore. If you are stupid enough, you can blow up any rifle, black powder or other wise.

 

[yoderjac]

I've shot smokeless for a long time. Since the advent of the Savage. All of my buddies have or had them, and I set them all up. They are a great system, obvious advantage is little cleaning or corrosion, no smoke cloud, can taylor a load for youth with little kick, or a "magnum" style load. It does come with a price, it isn't like shooting a ML with pellets. Super-accuracy isn't achieved without plenty of testing, usually. There are a lot of components and combinations of components. What one rifle likes, another may not. In general, each charge is best of weighed out, not just dipped with a powder dipper. There is more work up front to develop a load your rifle likes, and if you usually shoot pellets, more work measuring out charges as you go.

The Savage ML went out of business through lack of marketing. The rifle was always like the forgotten step-child, they never did TRY to sell it, it just sold with no advertising or marketing. At some point, it wasn't worth their effort anymore. If you are stupid enough, you can blow up any rifle, black powder or other wise.

Thanks! I appreciate the insight. I presume that if I get a custom smokeless barrel for my TC, whomever makes it will have some suggested loads to get me started. I ended up moving to pellets for my current muzzleloader because they were so convenient and at the distances I was shooting for hunting did not degrade the accuracy significantly. Do you pre-measure charges and put them in tubes for hunting?

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

I believe it was around $800 which included a new barrel and 50 primer modules (they don't wear out) , which can be reloaded with a Large rifle primer many times. I would bet there are long waits now no matter where you go so I wouldn't count on a quick delivery.

Interesting. The guy from arrowhead says he gets about 20 shots out of his modules before they begin to leak a bit. Here is the video where he mentions it near the end:

I wonder if Hankins modules are different.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[swat1018]

I have about 12 of the plastic "speed loaders" I keep measured out and ready. Also, I suppose if paper plate size groups are good enough, you may be able to take short cuts. I'm an accuracy freak and am always looking for one-hole groups. There are tons of load recipes out there, and I'm sure every manufacturer has starting points. You can still find savages out there, but there are probably better rifles. I'm not a "gun nut" and at the time I bought mine, Savage was the easy choice. The savage vent liner is a small screw that screws into the bolt and is meant to be replaceable. It is the only part that "wears," and there are still aftermarket sources. You can still buy Savages on gunbroker, etc, but they are getting more expensive. Of all of my friends' rifles, someone may want to sell one even.

 

[yoderjac]

I'm not good with plate sized groups but I'm not an accuracy freak. I won't shoot past the capability of the firearm. With my current muzzleloader 125 yards is about my limit. I'm getting about 3" groups with white hot pellets and that is good enough for my hunting. Reducing that to an inch groups using loose powder doesn't buy me much for hunting and isn't worth the trouble. If I'm using smokeless, I'm getting longer range, more accuracy, less cleaning, no smoke to occlude deer after the shot....now that would be worth using loose powder.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Booner21]

I would think a cva conversion would fit your needs nicely. Not having a whiteout after the shot was a big reason I bought mine in the beginning. Smokeless Ml has definitely came a long long way in the last 15 years.


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[yoderjac]

Based on recommendations from that thread, I'm converging on a barrel from Jeff Hankins. I had an email conversation with him. He is out of .45 cal barrels for this calendar year, so if I do this it will be next year. He had .40 cal but they are not legal for hunting deer in my area. I had a hunt tonight where I might have taken a shot with a longer range smokeless muzzleloader, but it was out of range for my current gun. I shot a doe the other day. Once again, smoke was an issue. I was fortunate that she ran 70 yards directly back at me and then turn and ran another 40 yards and collapsed in sight. Had she run another direction, it would have taken me a while to get on the blood trail.

I have an old Leupold VX-6 CDS on the current muzzleloader. Given the short range, I never ordered the dial. So, once I convert to smokeless next year, I should be able to chronograph it and order a dial.

I'll post back here when I hear from Jeff next year.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[roymunson]

id like to make it known on here, if anyone has a smokeless muzzleloader they want to move on from, you know where my PM box is.

 

[yoderjac]

Well, I just pulled the trigger on an encore .45 cal smokeless barrel from Jeff Hankins along with some ancillary supplies. Right now, I'm having trouble finding large rifle primers and powder. Jeff is recommending IMR 4198 and it, like many powders is out of stock everywhere these days. Here is the barrel I ordered: https://hanksprecisiongunparts.com/...rrel-complete-with-muzzle-brake-and-stock-set Sounds like it comes with a picatinny rail mount, so I'll need to get different rings for the scope.

Hopefully reloading supplies will become more available in time to get ready for the season.

Thanks,

Jack