Prune critique please

[j-bird]

I was out today and pruned my apples, but I am not very experienced in doing so. Can those of you more experienced give my your 2 cents worth please? These where box store specials (I know, I know) in 5 gallon containers - 3 years in the ground. I am basically pruning right now to promote vertical growth to get beyond the reach of the deer. I had a few apples form last year, but nothing to really speak of. My biggest concern is the long "whip" limbs. Reminds me of a good whip'n switch!

Tree #1 - this tree had tent worms last year and that part of the central leader died.


Tree #2 - poor form I know, but I am not sure what I can really do about it.


Tree #3



Tree #4

 

[Turkey Creek]

The main thing you need is to get a primary leaders started. In every picture you have limbs all competing for the dominant leader, thus the long whippy branches. Your side branches should not be allowed to be taller than the central leader. I have an old ipad so I cant draw colored lines where you need to cut. Somebody else will likely do that for you.

Kill off the vegetation around the bases of your trees it is all competing for moisture and nutrients.

 

[Maya]

J-Bird I'm not good w/ computers so I'm not going to draw lines, but I'll give you some links to look at and write a few random thoughts....

Pic 1 Stake that tree and tie that top branch so that it is going up and will be the new leader. I had to do this several years ago. After a few years you hardly notice it, except for a little jog in the leader. The tree on the right in this pic.

 

[Maya]

Pic 2 Since grafting season is right around the corner, I'd cut it off below those branches and start it over. Normally you should try to have a nurse branch to get them started, but I've had great luck w/o one. They grow like crazy, and I think it would be better in the long run. This grew 5-6' the first year. This was after 2 growing seasons.

 

[Maya]

Pic 3 Better, but think of these young trees like this. My goal is to have a good scaffold (tier) of 4-5 branches each year. Each branch going out at a different direction, so they get as much light as possible. If you look down from the top of the tree down toward the ground they form a star. Don't go nuts on young trees, I just normally take out suckers or real bad branches w/ bad crotch angels. I like to keep what looks like to many branches and slowly take them out as they crowd out each other.

You have a tier, then there is a gap going up the leader, then another tier so each one will get plenty of light. The top is thinned out of aggressive branches so the rest of the tree is not shaded out.

 

[Maya]

In pic 4, and all of them. I don't use little diameter fences. I like to use 20' pieces so that they end up like these. This way I can train those branches out at 60 degree angles. The fence even gives me something to tie branches down to. As I said, I like to a lot of branches in young trees to feed that tree plenty of sun light. Many properly trained strong branches allows the branches to take in plenty of light and will get them fruiting sooner.

This tree has real nice branches, and was thinned out to 5 on that bottom scaffold (tier) over a few years. A big fenced in area allows me to do this. That 1st scaffold is up at about 4 - 5'. I love having more canopy to get the tree growing, then thin it out slowly.

 

[Maya]

http://eap.mcgill.ca/CPTFP_7.htm#Pruning

The first link really shows how trees grow and why you should train and prune as I said in the other posts. Great read!
The second is from Umass' John Clemments, he is the head of the apple program down at Umass Amherst and who I did a lot of training with. The video music is pretty goofy, but the basic techniques is what I go by to prune central leader trees.

 

[chummer]

Thanks for they great link Maya. What is everyone's thoughts on crab apples? Should I prune them the same way or let them go?

 

[j-bird]

Thanks Maya - I have lots to learn about pruning. I'll head out and at least knock those whips back that are not the central leader.

On the one that needs to be cut back and potentially grafted - that one may be interesting - I have never done any grafting. I assume I could use some of the whips I remove from that tree from the graft?

 

[Turkey Creek]

On the one that needs to be cut back and potentially grafted - that one may be interesting - I have never done any grafting. I assume I could use some of the whips I remove from that tree from the graft?

You bet. Bark grafts are pretty easy. I am willing to bet you will have a 4-5' tall tree by the end of summer with the already established root system.

 

[j-bird]

You guys know this is going to spawn stupid questions from me on grafting!

 

[CrazyEd]

j-bird, I pretty much agree with everything that has already been said. Everything here can be fixed, that is for sure. But i think you also provide examples of why it's important to train young trees. If you can shape them when they are young, you set the stage for the future you don't have to spend time correcting things.

So as for getting these things back on track. Conduit on young trees helps keep the central leader growing straight and up, that is a recommendation. I use 10' conduit on all my young trees for at least 5 years. It's not strong enough to really stake the tree but it works great to guide the leader.

The other challenge will be getting some of those limbs down so they are not competing with the central leader. There are a number of things you can do. Tree #1 a bigger diameter cage may help. Depending on what rootstock that tree is on you could mayb eventually remove that set of branches and set your first set of scaffold at 5' off the ground, above your cage. Thats my approach. You can also use things like weights or 14 gauge wire. You just have to be careful not to snap the branches. Make sure it warms up before you start pulling down. One thing you could do now, is on larger diameter branches, say 1" diameter branch. You can make 1 or 2 very small cuts with a hand saw on the underside of the branch an inch or so away from the trunk. Only cut 1/3 of the way through the branch from the bottom going up. Just like cut #1 in the picture here. You could do 1 or 2 of these cuts, that will allow the branch to drop down a little bit, and you could put a weight or wire on the end to pull it down and it's less likely to snap off.

The main rule of thumb with fruit trees is train to central leader and keep the pyramid or Christmas tree shape. I am usually very aggressive in pruning the tops of my trees to take out other limbs up top so they can't compete with my central leader. I just dont even give the other stuff a real chance to compete with my leader. You can also see my first real main set of branches is basically right at or above the top of my 5' cage. If you are new to fruit trees sometimes these concepts just take a few years to set in. Once you start pruning the trees and see how they react year after year to different cuts it starts to make more sense.

Before:

After:

 

[CrazyEd]

Here's some pics of a very young tree where i move the competing leaders or future leaders.

Clothespins help keep young branches growing nice and straight out of the tree.

As the branches get bigger, pull the clothespins off and the next step is to tie them down with 12-14 gauge wire. Here's a picture from the other forum that WesternNY posted. This process can be a lot of work if you have a lot of trees, but it really helps keep your trees in check.

From a training perspective, if you can do these few things, you can avoid a lot of corrective measures later which will save you time and get your trees fruiting sooner.

 

[Maya]

Good point, just don't train them like in that last picture. 60 degree angles, not below 90. I believe that is one of Mikes tall spindle trees, not a central leader, but ya, I like using 14 ga wire or twine to bend branches.

On a side note I am doing a pruning seminar w/ the Upper Hudson River QDMA next Sunday 1:00PM in Greenwich NY. 'Old apple tree 101', taking neglected & overgrown apple trees to productive wildlife trees. PM me to RSVP. QDMA membership required.

 

[j-bird]

OK - so I "think" I follow a little better. I have shown below what I "think" I need to do, but before I become an "apple tree butcher" - I would like some reassurance that I am on the right path.

First tree I need to trim the whip like limbs back and tie up the top limb to become the central leader.
Second tree I need to just cut back to the trunk and graft new leaders to just start over from a form perspective.
Third tree I need to trim whip like limbs back for conical form and reduce competition for the central leader.
Forth tree - I need to trim to a conical form and reduce the competition for the central leader - I may even try to straighten and promote a few additional limbs on the other side to balance the tree as well (maybe next year).

On the tree where I need to cut to the trunk and graft new leaders to - is it OK if I graft leaders of different trees? Part of me wants to put 2 if not 4 new leaders on it to better my chances of success. Should I be looking at a cleft graft or a bark graft here? Remember - I'm a rookie so I need simple and success.

When would be a good time for me to try the grafting here in southern half of IN? I am looking for grafting supplies now.

Sorry for being a pest on the matter - I am just having a difficult time getting a grasp - and I know we have the experts here to point me in the proper direction.

 

[Turkey Creek]

Here is my opinion. Referring to your above pictures with red lines. On picture number 1 I would cut that limb off at the top of your leader as well and just train a new leader that emerges or cut down to slightly above that little limb that is already trying to grow upwards. You are going to have a real funky crook in your tree trying to force that highest most branch into a vertical position at this point. Tree number 2 no more than two new grafts, cleft or bark your choice. Once one is looking better than the other remove the weaker one. Looks good on tree 3. I cant really see tree 4 very well due to the wire.

On the limbs you are cutting back, cut back to a bud that is on that limb opposite of your central leader (outward facing bud). That way when that bud starts to grow it will tend to grow outward away from the central leader as opposed to towards the center of the tree.

 

[j-bird]

Here is my opinion. Referring to your above pictures with red lines. On picture number 1 I would cut that limb off at the top of your leader as well and just train a new leader that emerges or cut down to slightly above that little limb that is already trying to grow upwards. You are going to have a real funky crook in your tree trying to force that highest most branch into a vertical position at this point. Tree number 2 no more than two new grafts, cleft or bark your choice. Once one is looking better than the other remove the weaker one. Looks good on tree 3. I cant really see tree 4 very well due to the wire.

On the limbs you are cutting back, cut back to a bud that is on that limb opposite of your central leader (outward facing bud). That way when that bud starts to grow it will tend to grow outward away from the central leader as opposed to towards the center of the tree.

Thanks TC. I may have to change my handle to "the apple tree butcher"!

 

[CrazyEd]

For me #3 i would just take out that bottom branch on the right which appears to have a real bad crotch angle. As for the other branches, I don't think I would make heading cuts on all those other branches, i would just try to get them pulled down once it warms up, they have good crotch angles now. I think it's best to either train a branch or take it out completely. Heading cuts in these spots will likely just produce more water sprouts. I've learned this the hard way.

Look back at Tree #1 i would probably do a similar thing. I would train the top leader with conduit and try to get it back on track.

Same with Tree #4, i would pull those down rather than just head them back.

#2, yeah that is a rough one. I dont know that i would flat out cut the whole thing off, I would probably try to salvage it somehow.

 

[buckvelvet]

I thought this particular video was pretty informative, thoughts from the veterans around here?

 

[j-bird]

For me #3 i would just take out that bottom branch on the right which appears to have a real bad crotch angle. As for the other branches, I don't think I would make heading cuts on all those other branches, i would just try to get them pulled down once it warms up, they have good crotch angles now. I think it's best to either train a branch or take it out completely. Heading cuts in these spots will likely just produce more water sprouts. I've learned this the hard way.

Look back at Tree #1 i would probably do a similar thing. I would train the top leader with conduit and try to get it back on track.

Same with Tree #4, i would pull those down rather than just head them back.

#2, yeah that is a rough one. I dont know that i would flat out cut the whole thing off, I would probably try to salvage it somehow.

Unfortunately Ed - I don't think there is many options for #2 - I think I'll cut it, graft it and hope for the best.

Thanks for the advice.

If this whole thing has taught me anything - it's look before you leap. I learned several things about apple trees the hard way already with just these few.