Plant I'd. What to cut?

Corbin.clay

5 year old buck +
I know this answer will vary greatly from here in NC to Texas to canada. When you walk through a new area of your farm how to go about choosing what to keep? Northern area need more winter browse but here in eastern NC I believe thick cover is more important than winter browse. How do you guys ID valuable trees like chestnuts, persimmons and such, when you are looking at really thick areas?

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First of all don't cut anything! Secondly look at leaves, back and any mast, seeds or any other trait that may help you ID it. If your not sure mark it with flagging tape until you know for sure. Some trees are much more difficult than others and takes lots of detailed pics and post them on here and ask for help if you need it. Native is a virtual living encyclopedia on trees and shrubs! As far a picking which ones stay and which ones go - that all depends on location, health and the situation.
 
App looks like will be good help. Most of the trees over head height I can ID, but the seedling and shrubs are difficult. I'm cutting some trails (really juat widening deer traila) through the thickets and want to keep good plant as much as possible. I will get some pics of dominant shrubs and work on my ID first.

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Post any ID pics up here, very likely someone will know what it is or can put you on the right path to a positive ID. Also, check the previous ID threads, lots of times someone has already asked about it.
 
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This is near a pecan, so I am assuming with alternate leaflets it's a pecan.

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Does your state have foresters or wildlife biologists that can survey it with you and help you put together a management plan?
 
You need to take a holistic look at your land, and not only your land, but also the land surrounding your property. It sounds like you are taking a lot of important things into consideration already. Cover versus food is always a consideration, but I believe that on most properties you can have both through some planning and reasoning.

Finding and identifying an existing shrub or tree is only the beginning. You have to ask yourself if it will survive long term where you found it with or without your help. A good example is some of the hazelnuts on my place. There are some that will eventually be overtaken and shaded out by oaks. I could save the hazelnuts by going in annually and taking out the competition, but then I would be destroying my oaks. A better choice would be to let nature take its course and establish (or promote existing) hazelnuts at another place.

Unless what you are trying to promote is a "climax species" you will always be maintaining it in some way to keep sunlight coming to it. If that is at the edge of a woods or in a fence row, you are a lucky man, because you will be doing the maintenance (providing continued sunlight) by doing other tasks (i.e. mowing a field to keep it a field). This is just one example, but it illustrates how you should be thinking about land succession long term.

Something else you can do is what some refer to as TSI. There can be different reasons for doing TSI, and one of those is giving one climax species an advantage over other climax species by whacking back the ones you don't want. I do this where volunteer sweetgums come up in my oak planting. Both are climax species, and once the oaks get big enough to have a significant advantage, I can walk away. The sweetgums will indeed keep coming back and trying to dominate the forest, but they will never be able to do so, because I gave an incredible advantage to the oaks in the early years.

So, to answer your question, put your effort to what will provide benefit long term. Plant or promote fruit and nut bearing trees where they will survive with minimal effort on your part.

Do you want to be going into a sanctuary area trying to keep something alive, or would you be better off keeping it alive where you aren't disturbing bedding deer?

Also ask yourself about travel patterns of deer, your access points to get to stand location without disturbing them and the all important prevailing wind....

You need a plan, and you need to work the plan. That way you won't have wasted effort....

Like j-bird said, you can get some help here along the way, and maybe even from a fish and wildlife guy in your area. They are very helpful here.
 
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Does your state have foresters or wildlife biologists that can survey it with you and help you put together a management plan?
Yes, they come out and helped identify a lot of the trees and a few of the shrubs. The back 1/3rd which is the thickest and part of my sanctuary, we simply couldn't get to it. It was a forester and biologist and we talked, perennial clovers, grains and fruit trees and they agreed I had a good grasp on that. But as I clear or release oak trees i dont want to remove and native shrubs that provide birds or turkeys berries.
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you can see the blueberries and blackberries that are both wild.

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You need to take a holistic look at your land, and not only your land, but also the land surrounding your property. It sounds like you are taking a lot of important things into consideration already. Cover versus food is always a consideration, but I believe that on most properties you can have both through some planning and reasoning.

Finding and identifying an existing shrub or tree is only the beginning. You have to ask yourself if it will survive long term where you found it with or without your help. A good example is some of the hazelnuts on my place. There are some that will eventually be overtaken and shaded out by oaks. I could save the hazelnuts by going in annually and taking out the competition, but then I would be destroying my oaks. A better choice would be to let nature take its course and establish (or promote existing) hazelnuts at another place.

Unless what you are trying to promote is a "climax species" you will always be maintaining it in some way to keep sunlight coming to it. If that is at the edge of a woods or in a fence row, you are a lucky man, because you will be doing the maintenance (providing continued sunlight) by doing other tasks (i.e. mowing a field to keep it a field). This is just one example, but it illustrates how you should be thinking about land succession long term.

Something else you can do is what some refer to as TSI. There can be different reasons for doing TSI, and one of those is giving one climax species an advantage over other climax species by whacking back the ones you don't want. I do this where volunteer sweetgums come up in my oak planting. Both are climax species, and once the oaks get big enough to have a significant advantage, I can walk away. The sweetgums will indeed keep coming back and trying to dominate the forest, but they will never be able to do so, because I gave an incredible advantage to the oaks in the early years.

So, to answer your question, put your effort to what will provide benefit long term. Plant or promote fruit and nut bearing trees where they will survive with minimal effort on your part.

Do you want to be going into a sanctuary area trying to keep something alive, or would you be better off keeping it alive where you aren't disturbing bedding deer?

Also ask yourself about travel patterns of deer, your access points to get to stand location without disturbing them and the all important prevailing wind....

You need a plan, and you need to work the plan. That way you won't have wasted effort....

Like j-bird said, you can get some help here along the way, and maybe even from a fish and wildlife guy in your area. They are very helpful here.
Native hunter, lots of good stuff in there. I think developing a plan for each section will make it much easier for me to cut knowing there will be a long term benefit as opposed to a short term loss. I also need to reconsider my surrounding area, at 35 acres I'm close to my neighbors land at all times. I sit in the middle of a triangle created by 3 large ag fields, and haven't hunted this property enough to find their trails back and forth.

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Cutting sweet gums is going to be a large part of my winter work. I don't know of any benefit to them, as opposed to a mix of pines and oaks, mostly water and post. I have a map of the property with current and future changes, a list of goals for the farm, just once I get there and start looking at the biodiversity, I second guess whether to cut or leave it in an area for the balance of food and cover.

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In addition to the comments above know that depending on your goals, thinning can be a balancing act to improve species mix, stand quality, density, stand value (for either timber or wildlife), and in some cases diversity. Starting by identifying your goals is spot-on.

Also, depending on species and location consider basal or foliar spraying vs. cutting. Many species will readily stump sprout and require additional treatment + might hamper your improvement efforts.
 
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You guys are gonna save me a lot of headaches! I'm assuming the way gums sprouts from the stump I will need to spray them. Suggest Tordon or straight gly? Will be dormant when cutting, winter .

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Native hunter, lots of good stuff in there. I think developing a plan for each section will make it much easier for me to cut knowing there will be a long term benefit as opposed to a short term loss. I also need to reconsider my surrounding area, at 35 acres I'm close to my neighbors land at all times. I sit in the middle of a triangle created by 3 large ag fields, and haven't hunted this property enough to find their trails back and forth.

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35 acres of cover in a triangle between ag fields sound like a place with a lot of potential. I would think concentrating on good cover and making as much sanctuary as possible would be a consideration. Your could also plant a lot of food producing trees and shrubs around the edges that drew deer out of the cover earlier in the afternoon than normal and made them hesitate longer before going deeper into cover early in the morning. Multiple watering places near the edges would also be good. I think you have lots of possibilities.
 
It's a 5 year old cutover so lots of horizontal and vertical cover. Its a long and thin running east westproperty with 2 small creeks that essentially divide it into thirds. I have 6 pear and 6 apple, and will be adding barefoot persimmon, crabapple and some dogwoods in the spring. Access is most difficult right now as its either down the center of the property, or the north line. South winds, most prevalent are the best, but a good cold front is normally north winds.

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I know in the next few years the cover will thin as oaks and large trees reach canopy, and i want to help it stay thick through hinging and keeping shrubs and briars growing.

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Suggest Tordon or straight gly? Will be dormant when cutting, winter.
Basal spraying is effective iduring dormancy or growing season; it's basically chemical girdling. Diesel as the carrier/penetrant + triclopyr is what I use. Foliar spray with gly is effective but some of the "tougher" tree species may require more than one application. With foliar you also need to be super careful of wind and drift lest you harm non-target trees.
 
Balance is everything - I was just reading on another forum where a guy has a similar situation as you but he seems to have too many deer and they are destroying his understory and browse. It's all a balancing act between providing what the deer need and keeping the deer numbers in check so as to not damage the habitat. A plan will do you a lot of good but you often have to work with what you have as well. Plants that provide food and good cover normally are kept while those that do not tend to get cut - however you want these factors of food and cover to be situated where you have an advantage for hunting if at all possible - that is where the plan is handy. When deer have no pattern they become much harder to hunt.
 
Basal spraying is effective iduring dormancy or growing season; it's basically chemical girdling. Diesel as the carrier/penetrant + triclopyr is what I use. Foliar spray with gly is effective but some of the "tougher" tree species may require more than one application. With foliar you also need to be super careful of wind and drift lest you harm non-target trees.
Is triclopyr available at tractor supply and again supply companies? I would rather cut and spray so the downed trees can provide screening, funnels, and cover instead of waiting to fall after hack and squirt

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Balance is everything - I was just reading on another forum where a guy has a similar situation as you but he seems to have too many deer and they are destroying his understory and browse. It's all a balancing act between providing what the deer need and keeping the deer numbers in check so as to not damage the habitat. A plan will do you a lot of good but you often have to work with what you have as well. Plants that provide food and good cover normally are kept while those that do not tend to get cut - however you want these factors of food and cover to be situated where you have an advantage for hunting if at all possible - that is where the plan is handy. When deer have no pattern they become much harder to hunt.
Is good to hear people tell me the same things I have read and put into a plan, giving me much more confidence that what I am doing is correct.

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