What to do with an oak savannah?

[Wind Gypsy]

You'd think just letting it go without cattle would allow things to take off? Don Higgins always talks about how old cattle pasture makes the best bedding once the cattle are gone and things can grow up.

 

[BenAllgood]

One good thing about managing succession is you can set it to how you want it to look like. You also don't have to have it all be the the same level of succession. You can break it up into a patchwork of different ages based on where you put breaks. You could manage an east slope on a 5 year rotation, a south slope on a 2 year rotation, and some others on shorter or longer rotations. Connecting those different rotations is pretty cool too so you have complimentary stages next to each other (brooding to nesting/fawning to food/ food to escape). It's hard to ask of some species to cross a succession type when they're at an age that makes it difficult.

 

[4wanderingeyes]

I dont know if you said how many acres this is, but if you are talking 20+ of oaks like this, get a lumber guy in there, let him offer to buy about 1/3 of them, some oaks will reach out further, and others will allow young growth. The sale of any straight trees will be a nice little payment for a new toy.

 

[Catscratch]

You'd think just letting it go without cattle would allow things to take off? Don Higgins always talks about how old cattle pasture makes the best bedding once the cattle are gone and things can grow up.

Having paddocks so that you can rotate the herd and graze to a certain number of bites (1 or 2 usually, but if mob grazing is needed you go lower). I'm a believer that almost all vegetation is adapted to do better with fire and grazing. But, cattle are a pain if you aren't set up for them.

 

[BenAllgood]

Here's something that most of us would find really interesting. There is a site called the Web Soil Survey. Most of us have probably looked at it to find soil info. But, also in it, you find your area on a map, then outline the area of interest. Go to Soil Data Explorer, then Ecological Sites. There are links to different Ecological Sites descriptions and info such as what historically was there, what the burn rotations were, species of trees and plants, and more.
You can then go to the bottom of each linked page and find a pdf attachment describing each region type of your property. It's really helpful info.

 

[omicron1792]

Well said... very well said!

Thanks my friend! My passion is these savanna’s

 

[omicron1792]

I don't know what your goal is for the property, but if the goal is to have the best deer hunting possible, I would recommend making changes. I've hunted a number of farms in SE MN that have similar looking woods and they are cool looking places that are great for turkeys and squirrels, but not for deer. They are too open to be a preferred bedding place and they are so open that it is almost impossible to slip in or out without every deer on the property knowing you are there.

I would not recommend burning the woods unless you want it to continue to look like that. Burning it will kill off all of the young shrubs and many tree seedlings that you need if you want this place to hold more deer. There's a big park about a mile from my house that tries to maintain an oak savannah similar to what you have. They cut all of the young trees and shrubs, then they burn it every few years to look just like your pictures. It filled in with some native grasses, but they are thin and offer very little cover.

I'd definitely leave the cedars since they are the best deer holding cover on the place. If your goal is to increase the deer holding ability the fastest, have it logged and cut half the trees and leave the tops where they fall. You will immediately have ground cover and great bedding and those tops will act like tree cages that will allow the next generation of oaks and other trees to grow without being browsed.

I’ve had the exact opposite effect with fire. It causes thick, tall growth that deer absolutely love. I’m not talking about burning it yearly, that’s what makes a low grass dominant topography. 4 to 5 year burn intervals and that stuff will be so thick the bucks will love it.

 

[omicron1792]

I’ve got Grant Woods‘s email. DM me, and I would get in touch with him since he is in your neck of the woods.

 

[omicron1792]

Yeah, after checking out these links and seeing some other comments, this would definitely not be considered a savannah.

On this farm as a whole, we are hoping to increase cover and food to hold more deer, and to a lesser extent turkey. I wouldn't mind preserving small parts of these wooded areas, or transitioning some to a true oak savannah, though. We could harvest some of the oaks for a little bit of income and transition some areas to the oak savannah, and encourage more regeneration in other areas. I think the idea of the savannah is nice from a diversity standpoint, especially considering this property is the only one around with this type of habitat.

I think from a carrying capacity standpoint, we want to have more year round cover and food for deer on the ground. We are going to have something like 60 acres of native grasses from the pastures you can see through the trees in the background, so having more native grasses in what woody cover we do have seems a little redundant?

Here is a link to the property tour thread with some overhead shots of these areas: https://habitat-talk.com/threads/new-blank-canvas-farm-tour-in-northern-mo.15444/

You can never have too much native browse. 30 to 50% canopy cover with fire and you will have up to 3000 pounds of forage per acre. That’s right up there with the best food plots. And it’s basically free.

 

[omicron1792]

Yeah, after checking out these links and seeing some other comments, this would definitely not be considered a savannah.

On this farm as a whole, we are hoping to increase cover and food to hold more deer, and to a lesser extent turkey. I wouldn't mind preserving small parts of these wooded areas, or transitioning some to a true oak savannah, though. We could harvest some of the oaks for a little bit of income and transition some areas to the oak savannah, and encourage more regeneration in other areas. I think the idea of the savannah is nice from a diversity standpoint, especially considering this property is the only one around with this type of habitat.

I think from a carrying capacity standpoint, we want to have more year round cover and food for deer on the ground. We are going to have something like 60 acres of native grasses from the pastures you can see through the trees in the background, so having more native grasses in what woody cover we do have seems a little redundant?

Here is a link to the property tour thread with some overhead shots of these areas: https://habitat-talk.com/threads/new-blank-canvas-farm-tour-in-northern-mo.15444/

Sorry, I get excited about this stuff. In my experience, big bucks are killed in the trees. If you keep these areas with enough cover for the Deer to safe, but thin enough, you can see them to shoot them, they will walk all through these woods, grazing checking out the native grass areas.

 

[weekender21]

Sure wish I could transplant that oak flat to my place! I’d burn it this spring and see how it responds now that the cows are gone. You might eventually need to remove some trees to get it to your desired thickness.


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[Ben.MN/WI]

I’ve had the exact opposite effect with fire. It causes thick, tall growth that deer absolutely love. I’m not talking about burning it yearly, that’s what makes a low grass dominant topography. 4 to 5 year burn intervals and that stuff will be so thick the bucks will love it.

What part of the country are you from? I have no doubt that deer in different areas are drawn to different habitat.

I’ve never hunted Missouri, but that habitat looks very similar to southeast minnesota.

My current place was partially pastured when we bought it and half was similar to that. Hunting in the pastured area was inconsistent since it was similar to my neighbors pasture and the deer tended to bed in the unpastured thick creekbottom. I removed the cattle and let my place grow thick and added some food plots. My place held dramatically more deer after it became thicker with shrubs and seedlings and the food plots helped give me a more consistent bed to food routine.

My neighbor with the large open pasture asked to hunt my place since the deer weren’t using his place as much as before since they were now bedding on mine. The deer preferred the thickest cover they can find here, which was the shrub filled woods.

I do think those oak savannahs are really cool though and I can see why people like them.

 

[omicron1792]

What part of the country are you from? I have no doubt that deer in different areas are drawn to different habitat.

I’ve never hunted Missouri, but that habitat looks very similar to southeast minnesota.

My current place was partially pastured when we bought it and half was similar to that. Hunting in the pastured area was inconsistent since it was similar to my neighbors pasture and the deer tended to bed in the unpastured thick creekbottom. I removed the cattle and let my place grow thick and added some food plots. My place held dramatically more deer after it became thicker with shrubs and seedlings and the food plots helped give me a more consistent bed to food routine.

My neighbor with the large open pasture asked to hunt my place since the deer weren’t using his place as much as before since they were now bedding on mine. The deer preferred the thickest cover they can find here, which was the shrub filled woods.

I do think those oak savannahs are really cool though and I can see why people like them.

I think we have different ideas of oak Savannah. They are very very very different than large open pasture.

Wirh the 4-5 year burn interval it would be as thick as your creek bottom.

I love the look of a yearly burned Savannah. But that’s not what I recommended for him. Burning stimulates growth of things, not suppresses them (unless you burn too frequently).

 

[omicron1792]

The Best Fire Frequency for Deer Habitat |

How often should you burn? Should you divide hunting land into multiple “burn units,” and if so, how many and how large? We talked to a fire and habitat expert.

deerassociation.com

 

[omicron1792]

Prescribed Fire: Promoting Better Forest and Wildlife Management - Alabama Cooperative Extension System

In this four-part series, you will learn the importance of prescribed fire for forest and wildlife management. Specific elements covered will be site conditions, weather, and timing.

www.aces.edu

My place burns all the time. And it’s so thick and tall you can’t walk through it.

To get to the level of those pictures like a prairie you would have to burn yearly for 15 years or so.

 

[omicron1792]

If you burn alot I apologize. But I burn all the time. I’m meeting dozer guy tomorrow am to freshen lanes for a burn late this week.

 

[cavey]

Sure wish I could transplant that oak flat to my place! I’d burn it this spring and see how it responds now that the cows are gone. You might eventually need to remove some trees to get it to your desired thickness.


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Ya I could use about 5 acres of those trees, I have a nice spot just waiting... But up on one of my ridges there is pocket of white oaks that look like that, I love sitting up in those trees

 

[OakSeeds]

Here is an area (2009) that was quite a bit thicker until a farmer ran cattle in it for 4-5 years. After the cows killed 12-15 trees (mainly soil compaction) I convinced the owner to have the cattle permanently removed. It was exclusively bur oak and hickory in 2009; now there are invasive species and multiple oak species, chestnut, shrubs, and fruit trees that have been planted. There are anywhere from 10 to 18-20 doe (3 families) using the heavy cover at any time. With a river bottoms about 1 mile away, It is pretty easy to take a couple of nice bucks off this property during the rut. I'll snap some 2024 photos soon and post them to show the change. A "shooter" quality buck was not taken in this 30 acres for the first 5 years I handled the property.

This ground probably has never been turned. As the bur oaks in the second and last photo shows, it was likely an oak savanna with open-growth trees. Several of the last vestiges (magnificent oaks) recently have died or were removed by storms/disease. The canopy crowns on some of these trees are/were enormous.

The last photo was taken 20? months after the cattle were removed; some "caged"swamp white oaks were enjoying their early flush of leaves.