Old Field/Early Successional areas

[Native Hunter]

Thanks for the info. Do you not burn any of your grass stands ?
I try to burn once every three years. Seems the blackberry briers flourish after a good burn.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It's been 9 years and I have never burned - mainly because I'm afraid to, and the way my farm is laid out is not conducive to burning. When I started this I didn't know if I could have anything worthwhile without burning, because that was the cat's meow that everyone talked about. I was inexperienced with NWSGs, but I did have a solid background in farming and felt that I understood plant biology well enough to know that even though burning might be good - it was overrated.

I think I have proven that I can manage a NWSG field using my own methods. My friend at the SCS office tells me that there isn't another stand of native grasses in the state that look any better than mine.

As you pointed out, burning doesn't help with briers. It may make them flourish even more. A nearby friend of mine who does burn is plagued with briers more than me. Mowing them about the time they are blooming doesn't kill them, but it dang sure doesn't do them any good.

All of the expert advice I got in the beginning was almost worthless. They learned in school that fescue was a horrible evil and that was all they could focus on - no one even mentioned briers - it never crossed their minds. Fescue has been the least of my problems, and when I mow in the spring, I keep what little that may still be there from seeding. My management tools are:

Strategically timed mowing
Strategically timed spot spraying
Disking as necessary
Killing what I don't want so that what I do want will flourish
Paying attention to what Paul Knox wrote

There may be better methods, but it beats the useless information I was given by the experts.

 

[Turkish]

You’ve got my curiosity. Why the vendetta for blackberry?

Would be interested to hear your critique of the Harper article, too.

And what”Knox” material you’d recommend.

 

[Native Hunter]

You’ve got my curiosity. Why the vendetta for blackberry?

There are some places where blackberry quickly forms an impenetrable, thorny monoculture over 12 feet high. They will get so thick that deer won't (can't) even attempt to pass through them. These blackberry thickets have such a high stem count that trees seedlings (even the mighty oak) can't come up through them. They will tangle the tree seedlings, and they never have a chance. These thickets can last for decades (maybe centuries), because they can only be overtaken by trees from the outside edges. Large trees from the outside will shade a small spot that is sufficient to thin the briers enough for a sapling to come up. That sapling will grow and the process repeats itself until the trees finally overtake the briers from the outside.

I understand how hard it is for someone who has never seen this to understand it. It doesn't happen everywhere, so not everyone is familiar with how aggressive briers can be.

The following picture is me standing on top of the cab (not the bed) of a Chevy S-10 pickup truck picking blackberries. That might help people understand:

 

[Native Hunter]

Forgot to mention that I am not a midget.....

 

[BenA]

I think I have proven that I can manage a NWSG field using my own methods. My friend at the SCS office tells me that there isn't another stand of native grasses in the state that look any better than mine.

You've definitely proven that. I think a lot of the "don't mow" scare was because of what they were mowing. If I mow grass in a hay field or my yard at the right time and right height, it's going to promote the grass. You've definitely proven that mowing the right things at the right times and under the right conditions is certainly an avenue for success.

Fescue has been the least of my problems, and when I mow in the spring, I keep what little that may still be there from seeding.

When you started your NWSGs, did you kill as much fescue as you could at the beginning?

 

[RockChucker30]

Tagged

To contribute, most may have already seen this. https://extension.tennessee.edu/publications/Documents/PB1855.pdf

Excellent link. Question...this mentions a guide or textbook “A Guide to Wildlife Food Plots and Early Successional Plants”. It says it has pictures and usefulness of 250 plants.

I can’t find that book anywhere. Does anyone know where to source it, or another book on the same subject? I need to get better on my beneficial / undesirable plant IDs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[BenA]

You’ve got my curiosity. Why the vendetta for blackberry?

Coming from Louisiana where I love blackberry to Kentucky is an eye opener on different plants and growing seasons. In Louisiana, the briar thickets is where the deer are. They're like rabbits that carve trails through and under the thickets. In Kentucky, it seems it needs to be limited.

Would be interested to hear your critique of the Harper article, too.

I've read and listened to alot of Dr. Harper's stuff. I like him because he is more of an out in the field scientist than an in the lab one.

 

[BenA]

Excellent link. Question...this mentions a guide or textbook “A Guide to Wildlife Food Plots and Early Successional Plants”. It says it has pictures and usefulness of 250 plants.

I can’t find that book anywhere. Does anyone know where to source it, or another book on the same subject? I need to get better on my beneficial / undesirable plant IDs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm waiting on the newest edition. He told me it was going to be in the next couple of weeks and would be available here: https://ag.tennessee.edu/fwf/craigharper/Pages/default.aspx

 

[scott44]

I have planted pure switch and other NWSG's and I like the combo of both, they each have their place here. The pure switch is really thick and nasty and the last 2-3yrs I've had does raising fawns in there.

Some progress pics.

the second pic is taller and thicker than the trail cam pic looks.

The thicker switch with NWSG's next to it.

 

[scott44]

Even better this year, same as above looking back down the MG screen.

 

[Native Hunter]

You've definitely proven that. I think a lot of the "don't mow" scare was because of what they were mowing. If I mow grass in a hay field or my yard at the right time and right height, it's going to promote the grass. You've definitely proven that mowing the right things at the right times and under the right conditions is certainly an avenue for success.
When you started your NWSGs, did you kill as much fescue as you could at the beginning?

Yes, to prep for NWSGs, I did two spring sprayings a few weeks apart. That nuked most of the fescue. Of course, a little can come back from seed over time, but I have very little of it. The tall NWSGs just smother it out.

 

[Native Hunter]

Coming from Louisiana where I love blackberry to Kentucky is an eye opener on different plants and growing seasons. In Louisiana, the briar thickets is where the deer are. They're like rabbits that carve trails through and under the thickets. In Kentucky, it seems it needs to be limited.

I've read and listened to alot of Dr. Harper's stuff. I like him because he is more of an out in the field scientist than an in the lab one.

Some blackberry is not bad. I love to eat them, and I promote them in fence rows and at the edges of the tree planting. However, when you get an impenetrable thicket that nothing but a mouse can pass through, you have a problem.

One more thing - If you ever have to go out into a NWSG field looking for a deer that has been shot, you will be glad to not have any briers. In the fall when they are browned out they blend right in with the grass and you can't see them well. However, they will still eat you alive.

In summation my motto is: There is a place for everything, and everything needs to be in its place. We can enjoy eating blackberries without having them to also eat us...……..

 

[Boll Weevil]

I've got an old field that my primary management goal is to just mow it once a year and keep it from turning woody. It's a bottomland spot so timing can be important if it's a wet winter or we get spring floods. Turkeys nest and brood in it, deer bed and fawn in it, swamp rabbits call it home, all manner of birds, insects, and my goodness the pollinators!

 

[j-bird]

I find these areas are more useful to deer while the plants growing there are actively growing. They provide cover and food from spring into the early fall. Once many of the plants turn brown or die the deer seem to loose interest. The cover aspect declines and the food dries up. If you can mix in some native grasses then at least the cover aspect remains. I have an area that has some woody stuff growing that I need to cut back, but the "weeds" provide benefits to lots of critters. In the background of this pic you can see all the golden rod flowering. I have some buffer strips that are great transitions from my hardwoods to my plots and fields.

http://habitat-talk.com/index.php?attachments/n-plot-progress-spet-23-jpg.20699/

Here is some recent picks of all the plants I find in there as well as some of the other unintentional benefactors....

 

[WeedyJ]

At a recent management weekend, Dr Harper said that early season burns don't do much to change the plant population, but later season burns DO affect the population. I'm about to burn a 1.5 acre area in one of my fields to see what I can do to encourage forbs amongst the grass and woody stuff. Sprayed some of it already. Don't want to clear out ALL of my stuff in that field and have no cover going into the fall, but if I have success this year, I will burn smaller sections of that field late moving forward.

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

Early spring burns promote grass. Late summer burns promote forbs.

 

[TreeDaddy]

Coming from Louisiana where I love blackberry to Kentucky is an eye opener on different plants and growing seasons. In Louisiana, the briar thickets is where the deer are. They're like rabbits that carve trails through and under the thickets. In Kentucky, it seems it needs to be limited.

I've read and listened to alot of Dr. Harper's stuff. I like him because he is more of an out in the field scientist than an in the lab one.

Craig Harper is a "southern" Paul Knox in my view

All of his writings are clear,concise, and applicable in the field

Ive written him with questions on several occasions and he has always responded with helpful ,quick responses

bill

 

[TreeDaddy]

You’ve got my curiosity. Why the vendetta for blackberry?

Would be interested to hear your critique of the Harper article, too.

And what”Knox” material you’d recommend.

Not to be facetious, but everything that he ever posted

bill

 

[Native Hunter]

You’ve got my curiosity. Why the vendetta for blackberry?

Would be interested to hear your critique of the Harper article, too.

And what”Knox” material you’d recommend.

Just realized I didn't answer all your questions.

I read the Harper article when it first came out. I really agree with most everything that I recall reading. Keep in mind that not every field will make cover tall enough for deer to use as "travel cover" so some will need other taller species added if that is the goal. Personally, I don't see much use in a field that doesn't provide good cover.

The Knox materials I was referring to was his NWSG threads. He went into details about "winter standability" and other important factors that most people never think about. If a field is flattened by a wind and rain storm before hunting season even starts, it doesn't matter how good it was before it went down. He showed pictures of actual cultivars and how they handled the weather.

It's been a few years since I've read it, but I'm sure it's still out there on the Internet somewhere.

 

[BenA]

So, I talked to the sprayer, and they said my land was too hilly to spray. So, how do you get old field habitat or early succession areas without killing fescue?