Norway Spruce Screen Decisions

[Bowsnbucks]

Are white spruce and Black Hills spruce the same species?

If I recall correctly, BHS is a variety of white spruce. I believe it developed as a regional variation of "regular" white spruce. It's said to be more cold-tolerant.

Buck posted at the same time as me. I'll defer to Buck's knowledge of BHS. ^ ^ ^ ^

 

[BuckSutherland]

I'm in 4B and you can see some needle burn on this fall planted Norway. It was a 2 gallon pot, planted in August and watered weekly until mid Oct. The tree bounced back really well this year.

Time for you to smoother those weeds out with a weed mat and then throw some mulch on the mat. Those suckers would really take off for you. If I could drive up to a tree with my truck it takes about 3-5 mins per tree to install a weed mat and throw a bag of mulch on top. Then you watch the growth explode. Dont let the mulch or weed mat rub against the tree bark.

 

[Brian662]

Time for you to smoother those weeds out with a weed mat and then throw some mulch on the mat. Those suckers would really take off for you. If I could drive up to a tree with my truck it takes about 3-5 mins per tree to install a weed mat and throw a bag of mulch on top. Then you watch the growth explode. Dont let the mulch or weed mat rub against the tree bark.



View attachment 39411

Thanks. I plan to do that. This spring I mulched them after using a sprayer to kill weed competition and then the only thing I really had to keep an eye on were crawling grape vines.

I bought 900' of those tree mats from the Rice County SWCD sale and will be putting it on all my future plantings and some old plantings.

 

[Bassattackr]

White spruce and black hill spruce are two very different trees. Whites grow much taller at maturity (75+ feet tall is common where I see them). They also loose a bunch of their lower needles and the branches look ratty and thin, especially when crowded. I'm not much of a fan of white spruce once they hit about 25 years old. BHS seem to retain their branches all the way to the ground, densely packed, grow slower and reach a maximum height of 40-50 feet from what I see. They provided superior cover as a mature tree compared to a white.

Great feedback!

 

[Tree Spud]

Have not planted black hills spruce but did note some winters are just worse for winter burn than others. Several yrs ago noted that a lot of the cedars planted for privacy in yards had a rough winter and many died. Even ones planted for years. Never saw so many like that coming out of the last 20+ winters. Guy at work said same thing and he lives about 15 miles away.

For me norway spruce tend to get central leaders browsed a bit more than white spruce with higher deer numbers in that period right after snow melt in early spring. Think norways have a softer needle and result is they are set back more and take longer to get to a decent size. Claims that norways grow fastest not true if they get browsed first five years after planting. I have decided to only keep planting whites.

I am finding that Blue Spruce are also more resistant to browsing. Tougher less desirable needle. Have had them in the ground for 3-4 years and the ones I have not caged have not been browsed.

Norway's if I do not cage, will be browsed.

 

[PatinPA]

Is it bad form or possible to order from a county SWCD that you are not a landowner in?

I order from most of the our local CD's. I've even ordered trees from other states CD's. They're usually just happy for the sale. I actually like the County just to the north of me the most and have ordered from them multiple times. They have a much better selection than mine. I'm not even sure the county my land is in even has a tree sale.

 

[Brian662]

Does anyone recommend spruce plantings for partial shaded areas? I'm set up to have a decent select cut/canopy opener done next winter and want to plan for getting spruce into the timber for diversity.

It would be an area that would be good sun for a few years until the surrounding growth catches/out paces the spruce and then I'll do some cuttings on the regen to make sure the spruce are still able to get light.

Also considering some Eastern Red Cedar plantings as well, there are a few red cedar already in the timber but most of them have lost their lower branches.

 

[bwoods11]

I have had cedar and black hills spruce survive in medium shade. They grow a bit slow, but seem to survive.

 

[Bassattackr]

Also considering some Eastern Red Cedar plantings as well, there are a few red cedar already in the timber but most of them have lost their lower branches.

Eastern Red Cedar will lose their lower branches fairly quickly in a part sun to shade situation. They'll only retain their lower branches in a field or field edge where they have at least 7-8 hours of full sun. ERC would be very low on my list for a screening tree unless in full sun situation.

FWIW, ERC will survive in full shade, but not thrive. I would also add it is probably the single most adaptable tree I've ever seen as well. Uplands to lowlands, moist to drought, sun to shade..

They're also easy to transplant when young. Just pull them out of the ground by hand after it rains and push them back in somewhere else. Never miss a beat..

 

[BuckSutherland]

Does anyone recommend spruce plantings for partial shaded areas? I'm set up to have a decent select cut/canopy opener done next winter and want to plan for getting spruce into the timber for diversity.

It would be an area that would be good sun for a few years until the surrounding growth catches/out paces the spruce and then I'll do some cuttings on the regen to make sure the spruce are still able to get light.

Also considering some Eastern Red Cedar plantings as well, there are a few red cedar already in the timber but most of them have lost their lower branches.

White cedar, balsam fir or white pine would be my first choice(s) for shade situations. White pine will grow much faster then any spruce and would be my top pick. They need to be caged. I'm gonna be putting in about 10 canadian hemlock trees this spring as an experiment. Supposed to be good in the shade as well. I'm certain white pines will keep up with your regen.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

Buck -
We have lots of Canadian hemlock at camp and in the surrounding mountains for miles. They thrive on the north sides of mountains - the shady side - from seedling to mature tree. They seem to do well in either dry or moist areas (along streams - not standing water). Hemlocks make a great screen WHEN YOUNG, but as they grow, they thin & lose their lower limbs like pines do.

White pine DO grow faster than spruce, but as all pines do, they also lose their lower limbs as they grow. Our white pines here offer their best cover when they're young, and we can top them to make them push more branches. We have thousands of white pine seedlings around camp. Deer don't eat them here. We have to pull them up or saw them down after a while to avoid being overrun with them. Sunlight is like a mega-dose of fertilizer to our white pines once released from surrounding trees. 2 ft. of growth in 1 year is common on released trees.

 

[bwoods11]

White Pine (caged) is great in that situation. Deer candy if not protected.

 

[rocksnstumps]

Hemlock is very shade tolerant but like white cedar are high on the browse list. Some areas of the country have some kinda bug taking out their hemlock stands. Might want to check with a forester to find out conditions in your area before planning a large planting. A few doz trees here or there probably ok as would think bigger numbers are more attractive to the nasty bugs.

Agree white pine do well in partial or heavy shade and decent growth. Not going to be a thick tree but for diversity and maybe just a line of trees in woods to help influence movement could be a plan. Not thick enough to create bedding but still might direct traffic.

Balsam fir interspersed in Aspen stands are grouse magnets when snow starts to hang around and not melt right away.

 

[sandbur]

I would try some white spruce in those areas that are going to have some timber cut.


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[homerj1]

If I recall correctly, BHS is a variety of white spruce. I believe it developed as a regional variation of "regular" white spruce.

This is accurate.

 

[ruskbucks]

I have thousands of balsam growing under my hardwood canopy. I leave pockets of them for cover and bedding. They thrive by me because they are so shade tolerant and the deer won't browse them at all. I have a handful of hemlock the deer stand on their hind legs and reach every single needle they can.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

As a contrast - deer here don't eat hemlock either - but they love to rub on it. They also bed in young stands of it when it's still thick.

The BUG mentioned above that is destroying stands of hemlock is the "hemlock wooly adelgid." It's a tiny, white cottony thing that sucks sap from needles. No needles - no energy to the tree and the tree dies. HWA seem to attack mature, BIG hemlocks more so than younger ones. There are soil drench systemic chemicals that will kill them, but way too expensive to apply on a large scale. We've lost a few BIG, OLD hemlocks at camp due to HWA attacks.

 

[BuckSutherland]

I have thousands of balsam growing under my hardwood canopy. I leave pockets of them for cover and bedding. They thrive by me because they are so shade tolerant and the deer won't browse them at all. I have a handful of hemlock the deer stand on their hind legs and reach every single needle they can.

I know a spot with thousands of small balsams growing ontop of each other. Last year I pulled 100 of them and transplanted along my road frontage on the north side of my property (heavy summer shade). I want to screen the road with them for once the leaves fall. I lost a bunch of them (50%) last year cause they got completely choked by all the dust from the gravel road during the extreme drought. I did all 100 transplants in 2 hours so its not horrible to replant and I have a free source. Once I can get several dozen established I will mulch and mat them and probably try to hinge a few of the less desirable trees to eventually get them a little more sunlight. They dont really browse them in my area unless things get desperate. They sure love to rub them though.

 

[Bassattackr]

Buck S - You're a tree die hard. I'm impressed.

 

[PatinPA]

As a contrast - deer here don't eat hemlock either - but they love to rub on it. They also bed in young stands of it when it's still thick.

The BUG mentioned above that is destroying stands of hemlock is the "hemlock wooly adelgid." It's a tiny, white cottony thing that sucks sap from needles. No needles - no energy to the tree and the tree dies. HWA seem to attack mature, BIG hemlocks more so than younger ones. There are soil drench systemic chemicals that will kill them, but way too expensive to apply on a large scale. We've lost a few BIG, OLD hemlocks at camp due to HWA attacks.

I've also been told that it thrives in larger stands of hemlocks that will block the cold air in the winter. Single trees seem to be safer. Bows, they say typically above Route 80 is PA is safe. That sucks it's made it up to your camp. It's destroyed all of the large stands of hemlock here in central PA.