N Fords

[foggy]

Been talking tractors a bit with Stu.....and thought I would do a little primer on "N" Fords as my recollection calls it. You can get better information on tractor data.com But this is a primer in order to get your thinking "straight". They seem to make good plotting tractors for many people and lots of folks run a mower with them.

The earliest was the 2N ford followed by the 9N and then the 8n. Some of the developments were happing fast after WW2.....and some interchanging was taking place by owners. 8 N's are known by their 4 speed transmission and a distributor instead of a magneto.....and a few other improvements. Some of these tractors have been upgraded so its something to be aware of. I would MUCH prefer an 8N over the other "N"s. I would still rather own a JUBILEE or later over any of the n tractors.

First of all some significant things these tractors have in common. All have a pan seat and you sit safely between the fenders. All have a category 1 3point hitch and the Ferguson draft control. All have a 4 cylinder L head motor that is reasonably long lived. Early models had 3 speed transmissions with are too fast for some implements.

If you run a rotary cutter with these.....you gotta have an "over-running clutch" installed on the PTO.......without this....it can cause lots of problems. The centrifugal force of the cutter can continue to "push" the tractor when you step on the clutch. This can push you right into danger.

Also, the N's came with a smaller than current PTO shaft (IIRC it's a 1 1/8" shaft vs a 1 3/8" shaft). Some have been upgraded with a current size.....others have a sleeve to make them fit current PTO sizes. Kinda a PITA if you don't have the right PTO shaft size. MANY have been upgraded.....I'd try to find the upgrade.

Generally these tractors can pull a 2 bottom plow or a three point disk or a cultivator. Also popular are a dirt pan for moving soils....but loaders replaced this practice some years ago.

Many of those tractors have small loaders on them.....but that requires some floatation tires in order to steer them with a load on the front end. Then.....you better have good arms.....cause they can be a beast to steer. They can be prone to some other issues when equipped with a loader......like broken spindles and such. With just a rear implement....steering isn't too bad. When you lift the loader....you need to shift to neutral....let out the clutch to lift the load....then clutch again and shift into gear and go. Repeat ad-nauseum. PITA!

A good 8N with a good running engine, good rubber, and reasonable paint an appearance, seems to sell from about 2k to 3k. You do get what you pay for sometimes.......and this is one area to shop carefully. Lots of these out there......so find a better one.

Better yet.....buy a good Jubilee (Bingo) or a 860 (Super Bingo) or 2000, 3000 or 4000 Ford (Yowser!).......but they will cost more. These get you LIVE PTO, LIVE Hydraulics, and a modern engine, etc.

No doubt some will add some information. The point is that these tractors sell for about the same kinda money.....but they can be significantly different beasts. DO YOUR HOMEWORK!

 

[foggy]

One thing I would check on these tractors......is the tightness of the steering assembly. Some are just shot.....and will need replacement part$$. Others are quite good and tight.

Ford used to sell an "Overhaul Kit" which was basically a total rebuild for these tractors. This kit did the engine, brakes, steering, cooling, electrical upgrades and so much more. If you are lucky enough to find one that had this rebuild.....that would be a good one to buy.

Some things like brakes are obvious.......but many of these tractors have bad brakes cause folks don't drive them very fast. No brake is a bad deal.

Having to replace a bad clutch is costly. You gotta split the tractor to do it......and it takes some time and a little experience.

IIRC....the 8n models put the clutch pedal on the left and both brake pedals are on the right. My memory fades.....but I think I got that right. :)

 

[Satchmo]

Great info Foggy. Thanks a bunch for enlightening us. I had NO idea what the differences were. When I eventually get a tractor, I think I'd like something a little more modern anyway, but this is great knowledge to have!

 

[EOB]

What is live PTO and what kind of PTO do these "n" tractors have?

 

[dipper]

These are great tractors, that have some pretty amazing power for their size. If I didn't get such a screaming deal on the tractor I keep on my second property, I'd be using one of these.

 

[foggy]

What is live PTO and what kind of PTO do these "n" tractors have?

To me one of the biggest shortcomings of these tractors is the PTO. They do NOT have "live " PTO. Live PTO allows the implement to run After you push the clutch in. IN other words the PTO is not transmission driven. It's a pita when you are loading up on the cutter (for example) and must stop the PTO as well as your forward motion.

With. Live PTO you simply push in on the clutch.....let the machine catch up and then resume your travel speed. With these N tractors....when you sense the machine loading up.....you quickly shift into neutral.....let the clutch back out to let the load "clear" then put it back in gear and resume. Same goes for lifting the implements. You do not have "live hydraulics" so you gotta do a lotta clutching and neutral to operate stuff when your not rolling. PITA.....if you ask me. ;)

Some live PTOs also have two clutches (two stage clutch) so when you push part way down the ground travel stops....then push further and the PTO stops spinning. Nice arrangement. NOT found on N tractors or most others prior to the 50's.

LIVE PTO and LIVE Hydraulics is. BIG DEAL. I don't want to own a tractor that does not have these features.

That is what makes the Jubilee and later models so neat. They cured some of these "shortcomings".

 

[foggy]

OK. Heres another thought about PTO and lightweight tractors. Bear with me.

After these little utility Fords and Fergusons and such were made.......some folks got into more high horsepower and big tires and such to do such functions as plowing, and disking in a big way. These took HEAVY tractors with big tires for TRACTION to pull these big implements. Those a real FARM tractors.....and some of the small utility tractors also grew in size, in order to do these functions through the 60's and 70's. Some of the Utility Tractors got to be pretty big size compared to our little N examples.

In recent times......the COMPACT UTILITY TRACTOR (CUT) phase was started by Yanmar, Kubota and a few others.....and the big brands licensed some of these guys to build their tractors - mostly in Japan, China and Korea. These guys made higher HP tractors that were lightweight. Much like the little N's......but with modern features (LPTO, LHYD, PS, etc) and 4WD, but these machines did not use the weight and brawn to lug GROUND ENGAGING implements about.....instead they use the PTO to power stuff.

Hence you now don't PLOW with these tractors (so much).....rather you use a tiller to do the work. They don't rely on mass and weight so much.......thats why they require ballast boxes and fluid in the rears to operate a loader, etc. Small CUT's or Sub CUT's are made to use the PTO to do the work. Period. Don't plan to pull a plow with them or big disks. They simply lack the brawn to operate efficiently with these big implements. Instead think smaller implements or PTO driven stuff.....that's the direction for todays compact tractors. ;)

So many "plotters" think they are going to buy any old small tractor and pull a disk around buried to the hubs.......and I'm here to tell you.....it aint gonna happen. It takes weight and power to do that. That's why tillers are so popular. One pass.....and you have a seedbed. :)

It's also a reason those utility tractors from the 50's, 60's and 70's are in high demand. They have a nice combination of power, modern features and quality, that will get the work done. They just don't have 4WD.

OK....now back to little N tractors. ;)

 

[dipper]

I know there is one of the Ns that has a live pto, it might be the jubilie?
You are spot on foggy about all the limitations these tractors have. I completely agree about the luxury of a live pto on most models, but I still think these tractors are a step up from plotting with an atv. Especially when u start factoring the cost of something like The plotmaster, Steve was marketing.
Everything is a balancing act, the amount of $ dictates the luxuries.

 

[foggy]

I know there is one of the Ns that has a live pto, it might be the jubilie?
You are spot on foggy about all the limitations these tractors have. I completely agree about the luxury of a live pto on most models, but I still think these tractors are a step up from plotting with an atv. Especially when u start factoring the cost of something like The plotmaster, Steve was marketing.
Everything is a balancing act, the amount of $ dictates the luxuries.

Yep.....MOST of the Jubilee's will have live PTO and all will have live hydraulics. This was a big deal for Ford when they came out in 1953. My dad was a Ford tractor dealer and they sold all the dealers a GOLD painted tractor for a Demo Tractor (hence Golden Jubilee - also Fords 50th year in biz). I still have a plaque from FoMoCo as an award for super sales of the Jubilee models. Our biz was in the top 10 of sales that year. :)

I think a few early versions of the Jubilee did NOT have LPTO.

The guy that bought our demo tractor wanted it re-painted to the familiar red and grey. Too bad....that would have been a collector today!

The Jubilee and most later models will have LPTO.....but there are exceptions on some "price modes"......so beware. Check it out!

 

[wildfire]

I think it was a firminator that Steve was using.

 

[foggy]

Just to clarify.....but when I say "N Fords" I am referring to 2N, 9N, and 8N models. The later models are often named differently.....but they may have an NAA prefix to the serial number and some may call them N's I suppose. o_O

This was a tricky senario for a kid behind the parts counter......try to sort this chit out when your twelve! ;)

 

[scott44]

Just to clarify.....but when I say "N Fords" I am referring to 2N, 9N, and 8N models. The later models are often named differently.....but they may have an NAA prefix to the serial number and some may call them N's I suppose. o_O

This was a tricky senario for a kid behind the parts counter......try to sort this chit out when your twelve! ;)

Thx for the tutorial on the Ford tractors! Looks like you picked up a lot at 12, good stuff.

 

[Ogemaone]

Foggy, since you know a heck of a lot more than me on tractors, what's your thoughts on this one.

https://appleton.craigslist.org/grq/5183774101.html

 

[dipper]

Looks high to me. You are paying $2k for that spray paint

 

[Ben.MN/WI]

I have an old Ford 841 and it's a great tractor, but only when it's running. I've found out the hard way that there's a lot that can go wrong on a 50+ year old tractor. My $3400 tractor with loader is well on its way to being a $10k tractor after having to repair/rebuild practically everything on the tractor in 2 years. The tires are expensive too, so that's something to look at as well.

My tractor is having the engine rebuilt right now and hopefully I'll be in the clear after this. I really like my tractor, but if I had to do it again I would have purchased a newer one. Preferably a brand new one. But I'm too cheap to buy a new one, so that kind of leaves me in a pickle. I did learn an expensive lesson about used tractors though, so maybe that's the silver lining.

 

[foggy]

Where does the Ford Workmaster 601 fit in this discussion?

Those 600 series Fords were a bit of a strange critter to me. These were the lower HP versions of the 800 utility and the 900 row crop models. Sometimes they overlap for their purpose. I think more 800 and 900 series tractors were sold moreso....due to higher HP. The 600 was a utility tractor....and most of those were already sold in the way of the N tractors and Jubilees at that time. Then too......some had selecto-speed trannies.....which are nice when they work.....but not so good when they don't. The SOS is a ten speed automatic transmission - in a nutshell.

Advice? Stay clear of the SOS trannies.....as you may never get anyone to fix one for you if you have a problem. The gear tractors are just fine. IIRC most of the gear trannies had two stage clutches.....and the SOS models had an independent PTO.

I'd be interested in a good 600 tractor.....but there are several versions - just as there are with the 800 and 900 series. In many ways those 600 tractors are much like the old N fords.....with the updated goods. But some were kinda the 'economy model" and may not have a PTO or other equipment. (?) My memory of them is foggy.

 

[foggy]

Foggy, since you know a heck of a lot more than me on tractors, what's your thoughts on this one.

https://appleton.craigslist.org/grq/5183774101.html

That 4000 Ford with a gear tranny......was one fine tractor in it's time. With a loader it's a working machine. I don't think the price is too far out of line.....IF its really in good condition and runs and operates at 90% or so. A tractor like that should hold some value for a long time to come. Why? - It has all the right stuff....except 4WD.....and you can live without that. ;)

The one shown certainly looks well cared for. The sheet metal is not all bent up nor does it look abused.

To me....the 3000 and 4000 Fords are one of the best Utility tractors ever made. :)

We used to put a "front pump" for the hydraulic loader on the front crankshaft to power the loader - this really made for a nice loader operation. This one appears to have the pump mounted on the PTO. Not my favorite situation (if I'm right here) as that ties up your PTO for other operations.....like a cutter or a tiller. Still.....that would be a nice tractor to me.....and I may make the hydraulic conversan to the front pump - if it were a problem.

 

[tooln]

I'd be wondering if that fresh paint was trying to hind some mechanical issues.

 

[foggy]

Sherman transmissions. A fair percentage of the N tractors (10-20% ?) were ordered with an optional step-up or down (or both) transmission made by Sherman. Sherman also made loaders and some other gear that was available thru Ford. Evidently they had some connection with Henry Ford that put them on a favored status with the company. The N's were used for many different applications and higher or lower speeds were often wanted/needed. With the overdrive you could speed along at 20+ MPH to pick up your string of bale wagons for example.....and with a creeper gear you could pull that bale wagon without tipping all the bales over, etc etc.

The Sherman Loaders were an early version of bent pipes that were configured into a loader frame which attached to the tractor. Often times the front wheels and tires were replaced when using a loader in order to provide more floatation and to make steering a bit better.

Dearborn implements were a division of FoMoCo.......and I believe they were created in order to offer the implements to both Ferguson and to Ford.....and possibly other sales outlets. Dearborn offered plows, cultivators, loaders, combines, balers, mowers, and much more. In about '53 or so ?......the implements began being labeled as Ford. I'm not sure if Dearborn dissolved? .....but the handshake deal between Henry Ford and Harry Ferguson (made at the start of the war) was evidently long over.

Those Dearborn implements were simple and well designed. Many (of those well cared for) are still out there doing their thing. The plows for example may bring $600 or more......and I can remember when we had to beg to get $100 for a nice used one - in the 60's. I think most of the new 3point plows sold for under $100 in their time. ;)

Note: We had a "Boom Tractor" equipped with an overhead-type extendable boom and pretty stout frame and lotsa ballast. We'd use it to load some of the farm equipment onto a truck. It had a sherman transmission.....and that sucker would FLY down the road. It was outright dangerous at high speed and all that ballast on the back. :D Fun tho....for a kid.

 

[chickenlittle]

My grandpa had a 3000 with a slew of accessories. 3pt rotary mower, plow, boom, hay rake. Snow plow for the front. Maybe some more I forget. We used it alot for hay raking and running wagons. More fun to run around on than our John Deere 60. It was in great condition when grandma had her auction.