MN bills introduced to allow crossbows during archery season.

[Howboutthemdawgs]

No more (or Less) deer are killed on my farm because of crossbows. You only get to kill 1 at my place regardless of weapon. If a State, County or property owner chooses not to limit the number or type of deer harvested the weapon doesn't really matter does it?

Like I said earlier, if none of this matters why have any seasons? Just make rifle season start the day antler growth begins in earnest around June and shut it down about Feb when they have all shed. The state needs to at least be able to control buck harvest or I’d say make it 24/7 365.
At the end of the day it sounds like pro crossbow in archery season argument is that limits are limits regardless of weapon. I’d argue to open it up for thermal night hunting too. The technology is so good now you can throw the safety aspect out the window. Someone can’t give me a legitimate reason why we can’t rifle hunt day and night as long as we aren’t killing more than the limit.

Or some could believe in the sanctity of archery season. One where there’s a distinction between weapons and seasons. A crossbow in a lot of archers eyes is as much a bow as Rupaul is a women.

On a side note I made the mistake of clicking on a midwest whitetails video where the guy had his five year old son shooting bullseye’s with a crossbow fixed in one of those mounts in no time. I’m all for kids hunting, but a five year old being proficient enough to hunt archery season….

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

Some truth to this. Two of my grand daughters killed deer with a crossbow early during the archery season. They would probably not have been able to take these deer with a vertical bow. My hunters took two deer with a mg. We decided we wanted one more deer this year, our Christmas MG season was open, and I took one of the grand daughters out for an evening and she killed a huge doe. We could have killed deer at any time with a modern gun during these threes days. Point being, had the grand daughters not killed the two with a crossbow early, one of my hunters - probably a grand daughter - would have killed two more with a ml or modern gun. The crossbow did not increase the number of deer we killed - it just changed the method. My wife, my son, or myself did not kill a deer this year - because we chose not to.

I feel like too many of these arguments are related to a personal experience and not big picture. You and most on this board are the .1% of hunter/land manager. You care about your land and the game deeply. RPG’s could be legal and it wouldn’t change your harvest criteria.
Quality will suffer in the long run is my main argument since day one and I’ve yet to see a valid counter to that. But we aren’t putting the genie back in the bottle so it’s the new reality.

 

[hillrunner]

Like I said earlier, if none of this matters why have any seasons? Just make rifle season start the day antler growth begins in earnest around June and shut it down about Feb when they have all shed. The state needs to at least be able to control buck harvest or I’d say make it 24/7 365.
At the end of the day it sounds like pro crossbow in archery season argument is that limits are limits regardless of weapon. I’d argue to open it up for thermal night hunting too. The technology is so good now you can throw the safety aspect out the window. Someone can’t give me a legitimate reason why we can’t rifle hunt day and night as long as we aren’t killing more than the limit.

Or some could believe in the sanctity of archery season. One where there’s a distinction between weapons and seasons. A crossbow in a lot of archers eyes is as much a bow as Rupaul is a women.

On a side note I made the mistake of clicking on a midwest whitetails video where the guy had his five year old son shooting bullseye’s with a crossbow fixed in one of those mounts in no time. I’m all for kids hunting, but a five year old being proficient enough to hunt archery season….

Lol, you made me search "rupaul".

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

Lol, you made me search "rupaul".

You’re welcome!

 

[Catscratch]

KS is a 1 buck state. Many people choose not to shoot a deer rather than shoot a small buck. Tag soup...

For the most part our rifle season is outside of the rut. With our wide open views if it became 1 season any weapon absolutely more deer will get shot, and mature age structure will go away very quickly.

 

[SwampCat]

I feel like too many of these arguments are related to a personal experience and not big picture. You and most on this board are the .1% of hunter/land manager. You care about your land and the game deeply. RPG’s could be legal and it wouldn’t change your harvest criteria.
Quality will suffer in the long run is my main argument since day one and I’ve yet to see a valid counter to that. But we aren’t putting the genie back in the bottle so it’s the new reality.

Most of our zones have a four to six deer bag limit - two bucks and the rest does. A relatively small percentage - something like 20% of the hunters, here, kill more than one. Very few kill six. I have a lot of neighbors that kill four off five of fifteen acres. The family - mom, dad, two teenage kids could legally kill 16. I dont know any of my neighbors who have done that - not even close. These people are as far from land managers and quality deer management as you can get.

And to illustrate what kind of folks we have living down here, our game wardens have been tasked with picking up fresh roadkill deer to check for cwd. I asked the local warden how many he picks up for testing in a year and he said maybe four or five - he said he cant beat the locals to them - they carry them home and eat them. I know you are familiar with GA. How many does can you kill - 10? How many individual folks do you know in GA that kill ten - probably not many.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

Most of our zones have a four to six deer bag limit - two bucks and the rest does. A relatively small percentage - something like 20% of the hunters, here, kill more than one. Very few kill six. I have a lot of neighbors that kill four off five of fifteen acres. The family - mom, dad, two teenage kids could legally kill 16. I dont know any of my neighbors who have done that - not even close. These people are as far from land managers and quality deer management as you can get.

And to illustrate what kind of folks we have living down here, our game wardens have been tasked with picking up fresh roadkill deer to check for cwd. I asked the local warden how many he picks up for testing in a year and he said maybe four or five - he said he cant beat the locals to them - they carry them home and eat them. I know you are familiar with GA. How many does can you kill - 10? How many individual folks do you know in GA that kill ten - probably not many.

Correct not many if any I’ve ever met but it kind of goes to my point. Why have a season then? Seems like we are staying in the lanes the government said we can. Or, are seasons maybe something bigger than just a means to an end for the government to manage a herd to their standards? Is hunting supposed to be something deeper than just doing the bidding of the government?
If not why even screw around with a season, just open it up…seems like seasons are pointless.
Every time we water down a season or open it longer to accommodate anyone and everyone we are one step closer to that end game of just eliminating all restrictions in my opinion.

 

[Spike_Horn_Shooter]

I’m going to pose this question to the group, but I’m asking you all to seriously consider before replying. This isn’t social media - We are all adults, so I’m assuming most of us are out of our moms basement, unlike the typical facespace troll.

What if the state game agencies want to ban trail cameras?

Both crossbow and trail camera manufacturers want to cell products and probably both have some sort of lobbyist working on their behalf. No difference there. Both allow you to “shortcut” actual time in the field either practicing or observing wildlife. Both immensely shorten the learning curve.

It seems people are ok with individual liberties or privileges in the case of crossbows, being denigrated or removed, but we want our liberties and privileges to be held sacrosanct.

Certainly a large portion of us use trail cameras; whether we use it then to collect inventory, jump in a tree stand when a shooter shows up, or just for enjoyment. It could be argued that cell cameras are a more effective means of harvesting decent bucks than even a crossbow.

Some of the purist bow hunters among us, might advocate for government intervention when dealing with 500ft/s modern crossbow hunters, but what happens when someone starts advocating for government intervention to deal with modern cell cameras? Are you going to be ok with that?

I understand the difference between what I just asked you to think about and what MN is doing with adding additional weapons to the season. Just wanted to see what you all thought of the comparison.

 

[4wanderingeyes]

I will start off with, I hate the government, all of it!

As for cell cams, I dont want the government telling me what I can, or cant do, but in the last couple of years, I have hunted with less, and less cameras. I like it better. Do I still have some, yes, do I hunt where the cameras are, seldom, but I like to know what is out there before spending a ton of time out there.

Now, back to the real issue, F*cK! the government, all of it, R, D, and everything in between. They are all crooked, and are out there just to line their own pockets. No way you can honestly be a multi millionaire in any other job in a couple years, when you only make ~$200k per year. Rant over.

 

[hillrunner]

I’m going to pose this question to the group, but I’m asking you all to seriously consider before replying. This isn’t social media - We are all adults, so I’m assuming most of us are out of our moms basement, unlike the typical facespace troll.

What if the state game agencies want to ban trail cameras?

Both crossbow and trail camera manufacturers want to cell products and probably both have some sort of lobbyist working on their behalf. No difference there. Both allow you to “shortcut” actual time in the field either practicing or observing wildlife. Both immensely shorten the learning curve.

It seems people are ok with individual liberties or privileges in the case of crossbows, being denigrated or removed, but we want our liberties and privileges to be held sacrosanct.

Certainly a large portion of us use trail cameras; whether we use it then to collect inventory, jump in a tree stand when a shooter shows up, or just for enjoyment. It could be argued that cell cameras are a more effective means of harvesting decent bucks than even a crossbow.

Some of the purist bow hunters among us, might advocate for government intervention when dealing with 500ft/s modern crossbow hunters, but what happens when someone starts advocating for government intervention to deal with modern cell cameras? Are you going to be ok with that?

I understand the difference between what I just asked you to think about and what MN is doing with adding additional weapons to the season. Just wanted to see what you all thought of the comparison.

It's getting to the point where I think there needs to be some restriction on the use of cell cams for deer hunting. What exactly that looks like I am not sure but some peoples surveillance of the woods is getting to be a bit over the top considering the primitive nature of the species we are chasing.
I don't think an outright ban of the cameras is the answer but some restriction of their use specifically for taking game seems reasonable. They outlawed CB radios many years ago in my state for use of conveying a deers position while hunting. I don't see how a cell cam is any different honestly. (I have cell cams fyi)

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

It's getting to the point where I think there needs to be some restriction on the use of cell cams for deer hunting. What exactly that looks like I am not sure but some peoples surveillance of the woods is getting to be a bit over the top considering the primitive nature of the species we are chasing.
I don't think an outright ban of the cameras is the answer but some restriction of their use specifically for taking game seems reasonable. They outlawed CB radios many years ago in my state for use of conveying a deers position while hunting. I don't see how a cell cam is any different honestly. (I have cell cams fyi)

Should outlaw cell cams during the season. Read on another forum a guy bragging about his cam going off, getting out of his stand, crawling to where the cam went off and shooting a buck. Guy should be given a ticket not a good job. Disgusting.

 

[SwampCat]

The problem is, I know just as many rfle hunters who cant stand bow hunters - of any kind. They think bow hunters lose more than their fair share and the bow hunters get the easiest time to pattern deer - early season and post rut.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

I’m going to pose this question to the group, but I’m asking you all to seriously consider before replying. This isn’t social media - We are all adults, so I’m assuming most of us are out of our moms basement, unlike the typical facespace troll.

What if the state game agencies want to ban trail cameras?

Both crossbow and trail camera manufacturers want to cell products and probably both have some sort of lobbyist working on their behalf. No difference there. Both allow you to “shortcut” actual time in the field either practicing or observing wildlife. Both immensely shorten the learning curve.

It seems people are ok with individual liberties or privileges in the case of crossbows, being denigrated or removed, but we want our liberties and privileges to be held sacrosanct.

Certainly a large portion of us use trail cameras; whether we use it then to collect inventory, jump in a tree stand when a shooter shows up, or just for enjoyment. It could be argued that cell cameras are a more effective means of harvesting decent bucks than even a crossbow.

Some of the purist bow hunters among us, might advocate for government intervention when dealing with 500ft/s modern crossbow hunters, but what happens when someone starts advocating for government intervention to deal with modern cell cameras? Are you going to be ok with that?

I understand the difference between what I just asked you to think about and what MN is doing with adding additional weapons to the season. Just wanted to see what you all thought of the comparison.

Trail cams, crossbows all season long, or countless other items regulated in hunting don’t come close to being considered “individual liberties” to me. We’re not entitled to any of it and acting like any time a game agency limits us in some way is somehow infringing on our freedoms is a poor take.

The whataboutism arguments suck. To push for something new (to many places) like crossbows for all in archery season and then screw others who are invested in equipment that has always been legal (trail cams) to make up for the impacts of your new thing is shitty.

That said, I’ve got at least a couple thousand $ into cell cams and I wouldn’t complain for a second if they were made illegal.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

No more (or Less) deer are killed on my farm because of crossbows. You only get to kill 1 at my place regardless of weapon. If a State, County or property owner chooses not to limit the number or type of deer harvested the weapon doesn't really matter does it?

Of course the weapon matters, to what extent varies widely. If a county had sept-Jan vertical bow only they are not going to have the same harvest as if the same county went sept-Jan rifle only.

 

[Spike_Horn_Shooter]

Trail cams, crossbows all season long, or countless other items regulated in hunting don’t come close to being considered “individual liberties” to me. We’re not entitled to any of it and acting like any time a game agency limits us in some way is somehow infringing on our freedoms is a poor take.

The whataboutism arguments suck. To push for something new (to many places) like crossbows for all in archery season and then screw others who are invested in equipment that has always been legal (trail cams) to make up for the impacts of your new thing is shitty.

That said, I’ve got at least a couple thousand $ into cell cams and I wouldn’t complain for a second if they were made illegal.

That’s why I said individual liberties or privileges.

I would argue that cell cameras are more effective than crossbows for killing up and comer bucks than crossbows are. I’d think the same guys that are out there smashing deer with a crossbow would out there smashing them with a rifle or ML. That is what I have observed in Ohio.

Guy 1 and Guy 2 watches some YouTube videos on hunting public land. Both go scouting and find different access trails into the swamp with both areas having some old buck sign.

Guy 1 sets a camera and leaves the spot alone until a decent buck shows up. Buck shows up and he kills him. Guy 2 hunts at his spot 3-6 times, buck moves in after dark on first night, smells him and generally avoids that area. No buck.

Both scenarios - doesn’t matter what they guys are shooting, it’s the cell cam that made the difference.

My point in the argument, is that generally we don’t see 30 page threads devoted to not letting people use cell cameras, we see them devoted to crossbows.

Now - I’ll say this the hunting quality on public land has declined greatly in VT since crossbows AND unlimited doe tags. How could we fix that - a systems more like Ohio, with 1 doe tag on public land for the entire year.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

That’s why I said individual liberties or privileges.

I would argue that cell cameras are more effective than crossbows for killing up and comer bucks than crossbows are. I’d think the same guys that are out there smashing deer with a crossbow would out there smashing them with a rifle or ML. That is what I have observed in Ohio.

Guy 1 and Guy 2 watches some YouTube videos on hunting public land. Both go scouting and find different access trails into the swamp with both areas having some old buck sign.

Guy 1 sets a camera and leaves the spot alone until a decent buck shows up. Buck shows up and he kills him. Guy 2 hunts at his spot 3-6 times, buck moves in after dark on first night, smells him and generally avoids that area. No buck.

Both scenarios - doesn’t matter what they guys are shooting, it’s the cell cam that made the difference.

My point in the argument, is that generally we don’t see 30 page threads devoted to not letting people use cell cameras, we see them devoted to crossbows.

Now - I’ll say this the hunting quality on public land has declined greatly in VT since crossbows AND unlimited doe tags. How could we fix that - a systems more like Ohio, with 1 doe tag on public land for the entire year.

It’s because cell cams started out as being legal. You didn’t have to change laws to use them. If they were illegal to use during hunting season since the inception of a given season and then people were lobbying to legalize them there’d be a lot more talk about it.

 

[SD51555]

Government can tighten or loosen as much as they want. The market forces will do what they do. A free society is not fit for evil men.

I'm not saying anyone that uses any of these things is evil. The situation we're in is simply a conflict of personal interests in a public resource. If everyone that took part in the outdoors did what was best for the resource, we'd need no game restrictions at all. We're not in it for the greater good, because we don't know what that is. This is the tragedy of the commons, plain and simple.

The resource is in trouble, no matter how you dice it. Low deer pop areas have their problems, high deer pop areas also have their problems. I really feel bad for the high deer pop areas, because you're going to get the new mystery diseases in both deer and humans. Remember, all government agencies do the exact opposite of their intended purpose. Pick any government agency, and you'll see what I mean. I don't enjoy being this cynical, but I can't think of one that's improved anything. Maybe we can make a game out of trying to find a good one?

 

[AtomApple]

Government can tighten or loosen as much as they want. The market forces will do what they do. A free society is not fit for evil men.

I'm not saying anyone that uses any of these things is evil. The situation we're in is simply a conflict of personal interests in a public resource. If everyone that took part in the outdoors did what was best for the resource, we'd need no game restrictions at all. We're not in it for the greater good, because we don't know what that is. This is the tragedy of the commons, plain and simple.

The resource is in trouble, no matter how you dice it. Low deer pop areas have their problems, high deer pop areas also have their problems. I really feel bad for the high deer pop areas, because you're going to get the new mystery diseases in both deer and humans. Remember, all government agencies do the exact opposite of their intended purpose. Pick any government agency, and you'll see what I mean. I don't enjoy being this cynical, but I can't think of one that's improved anything. Maybe we can make a game out of trying to find a good one?

Brilliant!

I have no problem admitting that my gripe against the crossbow is for my own personal gain.
I have no problem with aged hunters, disabled hunters, injured hunters, etc using a crossbow. It’s the able bodied hunter, that has never bow hunted before, that wants to push that EASY button to hunt the early season. They never “paid their dues” so to speak.
that’s great if Swampcat’s wife is a natural, but most beginners take at least 3 years to kill thier 1st deer. Not everyone has perfectly laid out properties to hunt on. (Or bait, if that’s the case ?)

 

[4wanderingeyes]

I think I found the solution, separate seasons from bow, and cross bow, like was mentioned earlier.

Cross bow starts in September and goes until mid November, then bow season from Mid November until Jan 1.

That should solve all the issues.

 

[SD51555]

Brilliant!

I have no problem admitting that my gripe against the crossbow is for my own personal gain.
I have no problem with aged hunters, disabled hunters, injured hunters, etc using a crossbow. It’s the able bodied hunter, that has never bow hunted before, that wants to push that EASY button to hunt the early season. They never “paid their dues” so to speak.
that’s great if Swampcat’s wife is a natural, but most beginners take at least 3 years to kill thier 1st deer. Not everyone has perfectly laid out properties to hunt on. (Or bait, if that’s the case ?)

I've got plenty of my own hypocrisies too. I cannot stand the concept of public land in principle, but I also love having public land behind me because that helps the not having neighbors, and it's so desolate in terms of wildlife value, there's no reason to hunt behind me. You could golf back there it's so open.

If everyone hunted like me, there'd be no harvest change from crossbows. I've had one for probably 4 years now, and I've only shot at a coyote. I don't like the increased foot traffic from extra and early weapons and seasons because there's nowhere to hunt the public that isn't blown out by every activity imaginable on public land. I also like all that increased commotion on the public land because I count on that to drive deer off every inch of public within a half mile to my property where there is no sloppy human intrusion leading up to and during hunting season.

It's a shit show. I used to rally hard for change at the state and even neighborhood level. Never got anywhere. In MN, the government is on autopilot driven by money. No amount of public input will displace the money influence. I pour all of my energy into my own place making it the best it can be, and what I cannot control, I do my best to adapt.