Love my seedling persimmons

[yoderjac]

I grafted a bunch of persimmons that were thin this year and last year. Some of the rootstock was even smaller than the scion itself. I used several methods: whip and tongue, cleft, and flap grafting that Cliff England does (I think that's the name). I even bud grafted one as an experiment. I'm not sure if it's supposed to work this early in the season, but it did. I just wanted to throw that out there in case someone didn't want to wait until they were an inch in diameter. Of course, I'm betting it'll take longer than 3 years to fruit.

Year's ago, I ordered some persimmon seed from Cliff. He had just finished his planting and sent me a boat-load more seed than I ordered. I started a lot of persimmons from seed and grew them in RootMakers. I bench grafted many of them using the methods you describe as well as Z grafting. I had success but no were near the success rates of bark grafting in the field when trees hit 1" or so in diameter.

In reality, it is probably a little better to just plant persimmons and wait to bark graft them for a number of reasons. First, most trees start out in a vegetative state when they are seedlings. All of their energy is put into growing vegetation. As they get older, there is a hormonal change, and they begin to move to a fruiting stage. When a persimmon is a small seedling where bench grafting techniques work well, it is early in that vegetative cycle, but by the time they are an inch or so in diameter, they are getting closer to the fruiting state. When you bark graft them with a scion from a mature fruiting tree, They seem to transition into that fruiting state faster. First, by now the root system is large enough to support it. The scion from the mature tree has already gone through the shift. That is why we can see fruit in the 3rd leaf after bark grafting trees in this class.

I mostly just graft persimmons that are growing natively on my property. I found a male and a female tree near each other and about the same diameter. I cut down the male and bark grafted it. I let the female tree alone just to see what kind of fruit it produced. The male produced its first persimmons in the 3rd leaf after grafting. The female took about 5 years after the male produced fruit before it produced its first fruit.


That is not to say that there is never a case for bench grafting persimmons. For example, I traded scions with folks and did my bark grafting for the year one year and had scions left over. I used them to bench graft persimmon seedlings and kept them growing in rootmakers and over wintered them. A few of the bark grafts in the field didn't take so I was able to take scions from the seedlings to re-try those varieties the next spring without having to trade for more scions.

I'm sure there are other cases where it makes sense.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[blueKYstream]

I waited 4 years to graft about 30 of the seedlings I planted. They ranged from between 3 and 6 feet tall. I had 100% success rate on those. TBD on seedlings i obtained and grafted this year. I still have about 50 or 60 4-year old roostock I haven't grafted. I did note that I only had to pull buds from the rootstock once or twice and I didn't have to support the growth grafting at that stage.

I have a hunch, with no evidence, that males generally grow faster than female rootstock, which may explain why your grafts took a shorter time to fruit. I very well could be wrong though. Either way, I agree that scions taken from mature trees have that hormone that signals earlier fruiting. It'll be interesting to see how long to fruit when grafting smaller trees.

 

[yoderjac]

I waited 4 years to graft about 30 of the seedlings I planted. They ranged from between 3 and 6 feet tall. I had 100% success rate on those. TBD on seedlings i obtained and grafted this year. I still have about 50 or 60 4-year old roostock I haven't grafted. I did note that I only had to pull buds from the rootstock once or twice and I didn't have to support the growth grafting at that stage.

I have a hunch, with no evidence, that males generally grow faster than female rootstock, which may explain why your grafts took a shorter time to fruit. I very well could be wrong though. Either way, I agree that scions taken from mature trees have that hormone that signals earlier fruiting. It'll be interesting to see how long to fruit when grafting smaller trees.

Another thing to consider is native trees vs planted rootstock as it relates to location. Native trees that I find that are 1" or so in diameter are very well adapted, both for my general area as well as for the specific location they grew. By the time they are 1" in diameter, they have a very well established root system. They may be generally faster developing (albeit still slow) than trees we plant.

One more thing I recently noticed about persimmons is interesting given someone on one of these threads asked about fertilization. I told him, and it is tree, that they generally don't respond to fertilizer well enough for it being worth the bother. In general, I'll find a native persimmon growing along an edge (road or field), and flag it. It may be 5 years or more before the tree hits 1" in diameter when I graft it. So, I have a feel for the typical growth rate of my native trees. A few years back, there was a small field that was a bit too exposed to the neighbors. I planted a 15 yard strip of bicolor lespedeza for a screen. Bicolor is a perennial legume (Each time I mention it I have to caveat with the fact it is a non-native that can be somewhat invasive under some conditions). It has not been a problem for us. I was mowing along the strip one dat when I noticed some persimmons in it. Since I planted the bicolor, I new the maximum age of the persimmons. One was over an inch and a couple others almost an inch. Their growth rate was much faster than typical.

Why? I guess there are a few possibilities. Bicolor only grows 6' to 8' tall which would force vertical growth, but once above the bicolor, they would get full sun unlike many native edge growing trees. Second, bicolor is a legume that would fix N into the soil, but much deeper than we get with surface fertilizer, or spikes, or even PVC pipes sunk for fertilization. Perhaps they are responding to the N when fixed at deeper root levels.

I mowed the bicolor around them so I could graft a couple and to release them a bit. The bicolor is well established, so it will bounce back in a year or two but the persimmons will be well above them.

This has me wondering if planting persimmon seedlings in a young bicolor stand would be an effective technique. I may give it a try intentionally at some point...

I'm glad to hear you had good success with a variety of grafting techniques. I chalk up my lower success with many bench grafting techniques to poor skills and impatience. I can bark graft a lot of trees in a short time with high success rates. I may make more mistakes when using other techniques that require cambium alignment.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[b116757]

I would agree that my bark grafting has a very high success rate compared to other grafting methods I’ve dabbled with as a beginning grafter.

 

[blueKYstream]

No doubt that bark grafting has high success rates. However, from my experience, success with other methods has more to do with timing of grafting than method used.

 

[BrushyPines]

I planted 10 persimmons 2-3 years ago and already have 2 males that have flowered. Was just wondering if it takes females longer to flower?

 

[yoderjac]

No doubt that bark grafting has high success rates. However, from my experience, success with other methods has more to do with timing of grafting than method used.

Timing is key for bark grafting as well. The sap needs to be running well for success. I think other grafting techniques simply require more skill. No cambium alignment is needed for bark grafting, but if you can get it, it is a plus. For other grafting techniques it take more skill to get the cuts right so there is sufficient cambium alignment. Then you need to keep that alignment when you wrap the graft, and that alignment needs to remain until the graft takes. With bark graft, all you seem to need is sufficient pressure and good timing.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Hoytvectrix]

I planted 10 persimmons 2-3 years ago and already have 2 males that have flowered. Was just wondering if it takes females longer to flower?

How large were they when you planted them and how large are they now?

 

[yoderjac]

I planted 10 persimmons 2-3 years ago and already have 2 males that have flowered. Was just wondering if it takes females longer to flower?

I haven't really noticed that with my native persimmons. The age at which the bloom seems to vary quite a bit, probably with resources available to the individual trees, but I haven't noticed any difference between male and female in this regard.

 

[BrushyPines]

5-6 feet tall when I planted them. Some are 13-15 feet tall, while others are 7-10 feet tall now. The males that flowered are around 7-8 feet tall.

 

[Native Hunter]

I planted 10 persimmons 2-3 years ago and already have 2 males that have flowered. Was just wondering if it takes females longer to flower?

Yes, that's how it works on my land - males usually flower earlier in life. That's not a 100% rule but it is a tendency I've noticed. However, the percentage of native female trees on my land seems to be higher than others on the forum report. When I find a new persimmon tree or grove of trees off the same root system, there is an 80% chance they will be female.

 

[yoderjac]

Yes, that's how it works on my land - males usually flower earlier in life. That's not a 100% rule but it is a tendency I've noticed. However, the percentage of native female trees on my land seems to be higher than others on the forum report. When I find a new persimmon tree or grove of trees off the same root system, there is an 80% chance they will be female.

It's well under 50% or me.

 

[Native Hunter]

In 2014 I bought 6 grafted persimmons and one of those has turned out to be a male. The other 6 appear to be true to the cultivars they were supposed to be. I will topwork that male - possibly next year. All of the females are carrying a heavy load of fruit this year, including my many native trees.

 

[g squared 23]

In 2014 I bought 6 grafted persimmons and one of those has turned out to be a male. The other 6 appear to be true to the cultivars they were supposed to be. I will topwork that male - possibly next year. All of the females are carrying a heavy load of fruit this year, including my many native trees.

Do you have other males around for pollination purposes or are the females self fruitful enough that all males can be top worked to females?


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[yoderjac]

Do you have other males around for pollination purposes or are the females self fruitful enough that all males can be top worked to females?


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If you have native persimmons in your area, there will always be male around somewhere. They are insect pollinated so the male can be a mile or more away. If you do not have native persimmons in your area, you can still top work male trees. You simply let one of the water sprouts below the bark graft develop. That will give you a male branch. I graft every male tree I find and have never had a pollination issue.

 

[Native Hunter]

Do you have other males around for pollination purposes or are the females self fruitful enough that all males can be top worked to females?


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I'm in an area where 60 chromosome persimmons are numerous, so there are 60 chromosome males all around. But, the grafted cultivars that I planted are 90 chromosome varieties, and there are no 90 chromosome males in my area. However, that is not a problem, because they can set fruit without pollination. This process is referred to as "parthenocarpy." The fruit will be seedless, but the amount of fruit is not affected.

It's hard to go wrong with persimmons. One more story - I backed my truck over one of the grafted trees a couple of years ago, and the cage literally ripped all of the bark off of it. I cut the tree off at the ground, and put a new cage around the stub. The tree grew back from the rootstock, and this year it is loaded with fruit. I was going to topwork it back to a grafted variety, but the rootstock tree looks so good, I'm just going to leave it. Like I said - hard to go wrong with persimmons.

 

[yoderjac]

I'm in an area where 60 chromosome persimmons are numerous, so there are 60 chromosome males all around. But, the grafted cultivars that I planted are 90 chromosome varieties, and there are no 90 chromosome males in my area. However, that is not a problem, because they can set fruit without pollination. This process is referred to as "parthenocarpy." The fruit will be seedless, but the amount of fruit is not affected.

It's hard to go wrong with persimmons. One more story - I backed my truck over one of the grafted trees a couple of years ago, and the cage literally ripped all of the bark off of it. I cut the tree off at the ground, and put a new cage around the stub. The tree grew back from the rootstock, and this year it is loaded with fruit. I was going to topwork it back to a grafted variety, but the rootstock tree looks so good, I'm just going to leave it. Like I said - hard to go wrong with persimmons.

Good point. And just to be clear for folks outside the range of native persimmons, you do need a male tree.. The pollen from a 60C tree triggers fruiting in 90C but is not genetically compatible so the fruit is seedless. But you do need pollen to trigger fruiting.

One more note. Although persimmons are dioecious, there are some trees that have both male and female branches. They are called "Perfect" trees.....I'm not sure what pronouns they use...

 

[blueKYstream]

I'm in an area where 60 chromosome persimmons are numerous, so there are 60 chromosome males all around. But, the grafted cultivars that I planted are 90 chromosome varieties, and there are no 90 chromosome males in my area. However, that is not a problem, because they can set fruit without pollination. This process is referred to as "parthenocarpy." The fruit will be seedless, but the amount of fruit is not affected.

It's hard to go wrong with persimmons. One more story - I backed my truck over one of the grafted trees a couple of years ago, and the cage literally ripped all of the bark off of it. I cut the tree off at the ground, and put a new cage around the stub. The tree grew back from the rootstock, and this year it is loaded with fruit. I was going to topwork it back to a grafted variety, but the rootstock tree looks so good, I'm just going to leave it. Like I said - hard to go wrong with persimmons.

Your post reminded me about a study I read about different ploidy levels from various trees sampled in a few counties in Kentucky. I thought it was interesting, if for nothing than showing the ploidy levels of different familiar cultivars.

https://journals.ashs.org/hortsci/v...ploid range. These ranges overlap in Kentucky.

 

[Native Hunter]

Your post reminded me about a study I read about different ploidy levels from various trees sampled in a few counties in Kentucky. I thought it was interesting, if for nothing than showing the ploidy levels of different familiar cultivars.

https://journals.ashs.org/hortsci/view/journals/hortsci/55/1/article-p4.xml#:~:text=There are two races of persimmon: the tetraploid,the tetraploid range. These ranges overlap in Kentucky.

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View attachment 43757

Thanks for sharing that. I had seen it once before but had forgotten about it. My county is due east of Barren County and borders it. As you can see, all of the trees sampled in that county were tetraploid (60-chromosome), which supports my assumption that all of my trees are too (since the boundaries are north/south and further west).

 

[blueKYstream]

Gotcha, I knew you were south of me, but wasn't sure exactly how far south. I have property in Owen County and live in the far northern part of the state. Bullitt and Franklin counties aren't that far apart from each other (or very far from my property). That's quite a difference in the sample of those two though. I don't know that it matters too much, but it's interesting none the less.