Large land owners

[Foggy47]

I dont own 200 plus acres. I own 110. I have considered buying some adjacent acres to mine which would put me in that category.....and I would do so if my family would keep it when I am gone. The thing is.....I have two daughters/ son in laws that have different views on owning with their siblings. I'm 75 years old and if I were to own more land and put allot of work into the property......it would all be for naught as I cannot see these two families wanting to own land together. Not that they are polar opposites....and they do get along.....they just have their own ways of doing things and they know that owning things together becomes complicated. If I were 20 years younger, I would likely go for it. I can afford to add more land....but, sad to say.....getting the needed work done is now becoming a "chore" and at my demise it will just get broken in two and sold.

There are three adjacent parcels to mine and each could make my place a real deer-Mecca. But I resist getting into a negotiation on these pieces due to my situation above. Plus today's prices are getting crazy. So....I have put-off any future additions and prefer to keep assets in stocks and my other residential real estate (I got a nice place in AZ and MN). We have enough land for my hunting and shooting purposes.

I think the OP's question really was "how do you get the wealth to buy this kinda land?" Not sure there is any "one size fits all here"....everyone has a different way of gaining wealth. I had allot of different "careers" in sales jobs - mostly in the industrial sales area. Lots of travel....and fishing trips, expense accounts, company cars, etc. Made pretty good money and did fairly well on investing into the markets and upgrading my homes over time, etc. But, I came to the conclusion that I was never going to meet my financial goals by working for somebody else. So when I was about 40 years old.....after ten years with my last employer.....I started a small manufacturing company and developed a line of my own products that we sold across the country and some abroad. That business always provided much more than my old sales jobs. Sold the company a few years before the meltdown in '08 and really rang the bell on that sale.......because I had built a very profitable company with some unique products (lotsa work and good fortune). THEN bought my hunting land (among other changes at that time.). I wish I had bought a larger parcel......as the goals changed over time. I'm not sure I would have bought that land had I spent my years working for someone else. Doubtful for me. To me the hunting land is a "luxury" and does not provide income to make it a great investment. That could be different in the better ag country than it is where my land is located (in the north woods). Your results may vary.

 

[SD51555]

It'll be interesting to see what happens over the next year if the fed goes through with allowing interest rates to rise. There are probably very few on this site that even owned or tried buying real estate in a rising rate environment. I have prepared myself to see accelerating real estate prices in a high and rising rate environment. I for the life of me cannot understand how that happens, but crazier things have taken place.

What I worry most about is the trillionaires getting into the real estate world. I forsee the debt buyer getting pushed aside and property being transferred to the cash-class. It won't take more than a hop and a skip and all that easy money the fed gave to their buddies will be used to take all the property. We'll own nothing and love it, apparently.

 

[Baker]

In the late 1990's I was CEO and majority owner of an automation company that I sold to a Fortune 50 company. That created the opportunity to explore a number of dreams .

Backing up I started hunting in Mexico in the mid 80's and became friends with a family that owned 250,000 acres. The Patron died in 1992 leaving the ranch to the relatively large Catholic family. In the mid 90's Mexico saw interest rates go to 90% and the peso devalued from $1.00 to .10cents The Family needed to sell land to survive. Unfortunately it was illegal for U.S. citizens to buy ranches in Mexico plus the area along the Rio Grande was called the prohibited zone. Complicated.

I hired an international law firm and after 1 1/2 years they figured out a legal way for me to buy some of the property. { Moral; give lawyers enough money and the usually can find a way} The risk of course was that irrespective any legalities at the time Mexico had a history of expropriation typical of socialist societies. Nonetheless I rolled the dice.

Now the good part. I bought 6000 acres for $65 acre. Within 6 months I had the opportunity to buy another 8000 contiguous acres at $90 acre but chickened out. Then other Americans saw what I had done and recognizing the incredible potential and economics of the area started buying up property . Feeling safer with a Mexican President warming up to the U.S I ultimately bought another 19,000 acres . 25 years later U.S ownership of ranches in the neighborhood is common, land prices have increased significantly and quality management has created some of the most wildlife rich property in North America. Going price for ranch land around me now runs from $500-$1000 acre if you can find it.

 

[Triple C]

Another thing to explore - dont be afraid to ask someone if they are willing to sell - even if there is no for sale sign. I have bought property six times. One time was there a for sale sign. I inquired with about selling some land in 1995 - he finally sold me some land in 2004. If a “for sale sign” goes up in my area, it means all the family members and all the locals have already declined to buy it. Word travels like wildfire. If a rancher even mentions to his buddy - I ought to sell that swamp down in the bottoms and cut my losses - he will be getting phone calls about it tomorrow. If there is a “for sale sign” on a piece of property in my area - probably something wrong with it.

Agree. Put that bug in both my neighbors ear already and confident I at least will have first shot when they decide to sell.

As for comments about how stupid land prices have gotten in many areas, I agree that it could be a bad time to buy in certain markets, particularly if prices have gone stupid up. In my area of GA, prices have certainly increased due to urban/suburban flight following riots and pandemic. Everybody wants a bug out place now. But, they haven't gone stupid high. What was $1,800 an acre with planted pine 10 years ago is pushing $3,000 an acre now for 100+ acre tracts.

Just my opinion but feel like a lot of the urban flight folks will grow tired of rural land with no modern conveniences like a drug store and grocery store a block away, and within 5 years or so be ready to dump what they bought.

 

[SwampCat]

It'll be interesting to see what happens over the next year if the fed goes through with allowing interest rates to rise. There are probably very few on this site that even owned or tried buying real estate in a rising rate environment. I have prepared myself to see accelerating real estate prices in a high and rising rate environment. I for the life of me cannot understand how that happens, but crazier things have taken place.

What I worry most about is the trillionaires getting into the real estate world. I forsee the debt buyer getting pushed aside and property being transferred to the cash-class. It won't take more than a hop and a skip and all that easy money the fed gave to their buddies will be used to take all the property. We'll own nothing and love it, apparently.

I am somewhat in your shoes, but a few years younger. I want to buy an additional 70 acres that would really round out my property. I dont need it - I just want it. But, I also have the worry about my two kids - if they will want to keep the property. I dont really care if they both decide to sell - what worries me - is if one wants to keep and one wants to sell. The one that wants to keep is going to have to pay half the value to the one that wants to sell. That might mean the one that wants to keep could have to pay the other one $500k. That would be a bargain price for 350 acres, but not sure they will have finances to swing that. The only way for sure to keep that from happening is for me to have other assets equal to the value of the land that the kid who doesnt want the land can have to make everything equal. That means a lot of savings for me to accumulate - can be hard to do when you are buying land.

 

[Ben.MN/WI]

I think the first step is finding a job or jobs that pay enough to save enough money for a down payment. Life is expensive and land is really expensive.

 

[Triple C]

I think the first step is finding a job or jobs that pay enough to save enough money for a down payment. Life is expensive and land is really expensive.

Ben - You summed up in a few words probably the best advice any one has offered. Gotta be able to pay to play and most will need financing as I did when I started.

 

[bwoods11]

Buying land with income (cash rent or CRP) is a big factor in my decisions. It can help the average guy afford a property

In my opinion the 50/50 or 60/40 farms are betting hunting anyway. The big fields can act as natural food plots, creates more edge and can be coordinated with access.

 

[PatinPA]

Just checked Zillow. In my county their are only 5 properties for sale over 10 acres
13.72 $110,000
14.46 $124,900
13.2 $194,000
17.5 $249,000
27.2 $399,900

Any property that is in relatively short commute to Harrisburg is just commanding huge money and everyone that owns it is trying to cash in. I really hope to be able to afford my neighbors 20 acres should he ever want to sell it.

I doubt I'll ever own 200 acres unless I move. At todays prices, that's easily over a million here.

 

[Triple C]

I am somewhat in your shoes, but a few years younger. I want to buy an additional 70 acres that would really round out my property. I dont need it - I just want it. But, I also have the worry about my two kids - if they will want to keep the property. I dont really care if they both decide to sell - what worries me - is if one wants to keep and one wants to sell. The one that wants to keep is going to have to pay half the value to the one that wants to sell. That might mean the one that wants to keep could have to pay the other one $500k. That would be a bargain price for 350 acres, but not sure they will have finances to swing that. The only way for sure to keep that from happening is for me to have other assets equal to the value of the land that the kid who doesnt want the land can have to make everything equal. That means a lot of savings for me to accumulate - can be hard to do when you are buying land.

SwampCat - Great topic for another thread! At the risk of derailing this one I'll add that I'm in the middle of reworking my estate plan and this one issue is staring me right in the face. 3 children - 2 boys and a girl and all grown. Youngest son pretty much built every thing I've done on my property plus all the upkeep and maintenance. I mean just about everything. Oldest son lives out of state and comes to hunt a couple times a year. Daughter not into hunting but enjoys hanging out.

Current estate plan calls for the property to pass to all 3 children equally along with a nice balance in farm account to cover taxes for 10 years. Future timber harvests will cover beyond that. Caveat is the youngest son that has done most all of the improvements will be in total charge of anything related to the farm. They can sell but only if all 3 agree to sell. If youngest son, who is highly invested in the property doesn't want to sell then property can't be sold. If they decide to sell then any one of them can buy at 70% of appraised value if they want it.

In a perfect world, I would leave to youngest son and give current value of farm in cash or other property, (retirement home & land), to another and cash to the 3rd. But, as of today, I don't live in that perfect world. Working on it.

Maybe someone start another thread to see how some of us older geezers are dealing with legacy property after their gone. Would love to hear from others on this.

 

[yoderjac]

Just checked Zillow. In my county their are only 5 properties for sale over 10 acres
13.72 $110,000
14.46 $124,900
13.2 $194,000
17.5 $249,000
27.2 $399,900

Any property that is in relatively short commute to Harrisburg is just commanding huge money and everyone that owns it is trying to cash in. I really hope to be able to afford my neighbors 20 acres should he ever want to sell it.

I doubt I'll ever own 200 acres unless I move. At todays prices, that's easily over a million here.

Ummm...Those are generally not land prices, they are improved or unimproved building lot prices. It is a completely different cat than raw land. As I said in my first post on this thread, we formed an LLC and purchased a pine farm. A few years back, I bought two unimproved 8 acre lots for a total of 16 acres. They were not in a development or anything, I had to put in all the utilities and over 1/4 mile of driveway. The per acre cost for that retirement property (15 minutes from the pine farm) was huge compared to the per acre cost we paid for the pine farm and we bought it at a market top and I bought the retirement property at a bottom.

That is not to say you're wrong about folks cashing in. COVID caused a huge market shift that is just beginning. Many companies found that a good number of jobs could be done remotely just as effectively. It reduces their required high cost footprint and many lease building space, so they are even encouraging remote work. Many folks were just itching to get out of the cities and traffic before COVID hit. Then add the fact that proximity to lots of folks like you have in city is a transmission risk.

So land that is close enough driving distance to a suburban area with good health care and services is commanding a very high price for both homes and building lots.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[SwampCat]

Ummm...Those are generally not land prices, they are improved or unimproved building lot prices. It is a completely different cat than raw land. As I said in my first post on this thread, we formed an LLC and purchased a pine farm. A few years back, I bought two unimproved 8 acre lots for a total of 16 acres. They were not in a development or anything, I had to put in all the utilities and over 1/4 mile of driveway. The per acre cost for that retirement property (15 minutes from the pine farm) was huge compared to the per acre cost we paid for the pine farm and we bought it at a market top and I bought the retirement property at a bottom.

That is not to say you're wrong about folks cashing in. COVID caused a huge market shift that is just beginning. Many companies found that a good number of jobs could be done remotely just as effectively. It reduces their required high cost footprint and many lease building space, so they are even encouraging remote work. Many folks were just itching to get out of the cities and traffic before COVID hit. Then add the fact that proximity to lots of folks like you have in city is a transmission risk.

So land that is close enough driving distance to a suburban area with good health care and services is commanding a very high price for both homes and building lots.

Thanks,

Jack

All land around here. Realtor told me the other day he could get twice as much money for floodable bottomland hardwood as he could get for zero grade rice land. He said recreation land was bringing a premium.

 

[PatinPA]

Ummm...Those are generally not land prices, they are improved or unimproved building lot prices. It is a completely different cat than raw land. As I said in my first post on this thread, we formed an LLC and purchased a pine farm. A few years back, I bought two unimproved 8 acre lots for a total of 16 acres. They were not in a development or anything, I had to put in all the utilities and over 1/4 mile of driveway. The per acre cost for that retirement property (15 minutes from the pine farm) was huge compared to the per acre cost we paid for the pine farm and we bought it at a market top and I bought the retirement property at a bottom.

That is not to say you're wrong about folks cashing in. COVID caused a huge market shift that is just beginning. Many companies found that a good number of jobs could be done remotely just as effectively. It reduces their required high cost footprint and many lease building space, so they are even encouraging remote work. Many folks were just itching to get out of the cities and traffic before COVID hit. Then add the fact that proximity to lots of folks like you have in city is a transmission risk.

So land that is close enough driving distance to a suburban area with good health care and services is commanding a very high price for both homes and building lots.

Thanks,

Jack

Jack,

All 5 properties are unimproved. Mostly wooded and I would guess recently timbered. The $194K property is partially cropland doesn't say the split but it's only 13.2 acres total. The $400K property comes with an equipment building, a food plot and two raised box blinds, no utilities. The other 3 properties are pure wood lots. The 13.72 acre lot is not far from my house. It's a weird shaped plot that is a really narrow and long rectangle, looks like 100 yards wide by 700 yards long. Probably why it's so "cheap" at $8K an acre.

That's just the going rate around here. I paid 6000 an acre for 12 acres, 5 years ago and I know I could sell for double that or more as I already have a driveway, the lot is cleared, and it's perc tested for an in ground septic system.

 

[yoderjac]

Jack,

All 5 properties are unimproved. Mostly wooded and I would guess recently timbered. The $194K property is partially cropland doesn't say the split but it's only 13.2 acres total. The $400K property comes with an equipment building, a food plot and two raised box blinds, no utilities. The other 3 properties are pure wood lots. The 13.72 acre lot is not far from my house. It's a weird shaped plot that is a really narrow and long rectangle, looks like 100 yards wide by 700 yards long. Probably why it's so "cheap" at $8K an acre.

That's just the going rate around here. I paid 6000 an acre for 12 acres, 5 years ago and I know I could sell for double that or more as I already have a driveway, the lot is cleared, and it's perc tested for an in ground septic system.

I'm just saying that small properties like that are a different market than buying hundreds of acres. Most large timber tracts around here are owned by corporations and are not generally sold on Zillow. Perhaps things have changed in PA since I lived there. When I lived there, there was lots of state forest that was huntable in addition to the state game lands, and I rarely had an issue getting permission knocking on doors. That was quite a while ago. I never even considered buying a large tract back then. I did buy 17 acres with a house adjoining state game lands. Most guys don't walk far from their vehicles, so if you have even a small tract of private land adjoining state game lands where the general public can't park and access from nearby, you essentially had the place to yourself. This was long before I ever got into wildlife management.

I found VA to be a horse of a different color. Leasing hunting land was much more common here making knocking on doors much less productive. My best option when I moved to VA was military bases as the WMAs in my area were overrun with hunters. It wasn't long before I realized that I wanted to do some wildlife management and started the quest for hunting land.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Turkish]

I love this discussion as I feel I’ve learned some things since I first bought 85 acres a few years back.

I am trying to buy a little over 200 acres now and am not quite 40.

Who knows what things will be in the future, but my 85 acre purchase was a bad investment compared to having put that in the market — and it’s appreciated considerably. If I’d put that in the market, I’d be able to comfortably write a check for the tract I’m looking at now. The Winke story is a fascinating one, but land investing was easy at that time and place. He also assumed an irresponsible amount of risk for a hobby, IMO. Understand it was more than a hobby for him.

It boils down to having a good job. My wife and I both do … and we hate them most of them time.

I would advise small land purchases ONLY to understand if you really have a passion for land ownership. In this market, I don’t think it’s the best financial way to go about owning more land in the future.

 

[Bill]

I bought a 160 fifteen years ago, then the adjoining 80 about 7 years later, then the adjoining 152 a year and a half ago. Wish I bought it all at 15 year ago prices.

Just checked Zillow. In my county their are only 5 properties for sale over 10 acres
13.72 $110,000
14.46 $124,900
13.2 $194,000
17.5 $249,000
27.2 $399,900

Any property that is in relatively short commute to Harrisburg is just commanding huge money and everyone that owns it is trying to cash in. I really hope to be able to afford my neighbors 20 acres should he ever want to sell it.

I doubt I'll ever own 200 acres unless I move. At todays prices, that's easily over a million here.

That's why my farm is an 18 hour drive away. No way I could afford 1/2 of what I own if it was in NJ or a suburb of a PA city. But I'm lucky that someone wanted our business more than I did and I got to retire young enough to make that distance work.

 

[Bill]

In the late 1990's I was CEO and majority owner of an automation company that I sold to a Fortune 50 company.

Allen Bradley or Rockwell?
Just kidding. years ago I sold connectors and cable assemblies to Allen Bradley and then Rockwell Automation when they absorbed A-B back into the fold.

 

[buckdeer1]

Swamp, what you can do was kind of mentioned but you can put in trust that if any of the 3 want to sell the others get first chance at 500.00 per acre.I divided mine between my 2 daughters and did that.Another option is to give the land to the one that wants it and take insurance out and leave that to the others for the cash value

 

[Hoytvectrix]

Does anyone have any suggestions for deeding a piece of property that will eventually be inherited in order to have equity for a down payment on land?

 

[PatinPA]

I'm just saying that small properties like that are a different market than buying hundreds of acres. Most large timber tracts around here are owned by corporations and are not generally sold on Zillow. Perhaps things have changed in PA since I lived there. When I lived there, there was lots of state forest that was huntable in addition to the state game lands, and I rarely had an issue getting permission knocking on doors. That was quite a while ago. I never even considered buying a large tract back then. I did buy 17 acres with a house adjoining state game lands. Most guys don't walk far from their vehicles, so if you have even a small tract of private land adjoining state game lands where the general public can't park and access from nearby, you essentially had the place to yourself. This was long before I ever got into wildlife management.

I found VA to be a horse of a different color. Leasing hunting land was much more common here making knocking on doors much less productive. My best option when I moved to VA was military bases as the WMAs in my area were overrun with hunters. It wasn't long before I realized that I wanted to do some wildlife management and started the quest for hunting land.

Thanks,

Jack

I understand what you're saying. Smaller plots usually get priced higher. I get that. Part of what I was trying to say is that you can't even find 50 acre's or more for sale around here. I'm really surprised that none of the bigger landowners aren't trying to cash in. My area is still pretty rural but it's growing pretty quickly in some parts of our county. We got our first red light in the whole county a few years back because of a huge development that went in. There is quite a bit of public land here, you're right. Around me they're smaller parcels as far as public land goes. 100-400 acres. You can knock on some doors and still get permission but that's getting pretty rare and the properties that do allow end up being hunted harder than the public land. A lot more leasing is occurring now too.