S.T.Fanatic
5 year old buck +
A mixture I came across the other day that is safe for clover and chicory. 4 gal water, 2oz. Raptor, 4oz Clethodim, 4 oz crop oil.
Killing broadleaf weeds in clover & alfalfa
- Thread starter Bowsnbucks
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- clover plots
Bill
Administrator
I can't remember which one but one of these two labels says not to mix them. Probably because they have never tested it. I have mixed butyrac and cleth together many times with no problem. My only warning is that it's summer now, the crop oil called for on the label is going to brown your clover. It may even make it look crunchy brown and smoked. It will come back in the fall with cool temps and moisture. So not for the faint of heart at this point.
I would normally recommend replacing the crop oil with dawn dish detergent but in your case you're trying to establish brassica's in the clover so setting it back is a good idea. If you have a crappy stand of clover you have nothing to loose, experiment with it.
Ben Glantz
5 year old buck +
A couple questions-
How big is the plot and how well is the clover growing? Combining cleth and Butryac can get expensive. If the clover is not real thick, I would consider hitting it with Gly?
Overall I think you have a pretty good plan but I would be a little bit worried of putting brassicas in now. July can be really hot and not a lot of rain and sandy soil will dry out pretty fast. If it were me, I would do what you are planning on but wait until the end of July.
I have sprayed Cleth in my clover plots and I have found if the grass is taller than 8-10 inches, it will knock it back but wont kill it all off. Maybe an idea- spread the seeds, mow, roll, wait a week and then spray cleth on the plot(depending on rain and grass growth). When the grass is actively growing, the cleth should have a better impact.
How big is the plot and how well is the clover growing? Combining cleth and Butryac can get expensive. If the clover is not real thick, I would consider hitting it with Gly?
Overall I think you have a pretty good plan but I would be a little bit worried of putting brassicas in now. July can be really hot and not a lot of rain and sandy soil will dry out pretty fast. If it were me, I would do what you are planning on but wait until the end of July.
I have sprayed Cleth in my clover plots and I have found if the grass is taller than 8-10 inches, it will knock it back but wont kill it all off. Maybe an idea- spread the seeds, mow, roll, wait a week and then spray cleth on the plot(depending on rain and grass growth). When the grass is actively growing, the cleth should have a better impact.
Tap
5 year old buck +
Raptor calls for non-ionic surfactant. Not sure how crop oil will work with it. I've sprayed Raptor many times, but I never tried crop oil, so I don't know if it will work or not. Raptor also calls for AMS.
I've become not so big of a fan of Raptor. Weeds need to be pretty immature for it to be effective. Raptor complicates choices for follow up crops for up to 18 months or more due to soil residue. And it can only be applied once per year.
Chicory is a great forage, but it really complicates herbicide choices.
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FarmerDan
5 year old buck +
A couple quick notes for the cause....
1. Good scientific research has shown tank mixing clethodim and butryac is less effective at controlling grass and broadleaf weeds than either herbicide used individually. Admittedly, there are mixed results in some trials.
2. Clethodim is not labelled for clover except clover grown for seed in the northwest. It's economics. Herbicide registrations are expensive. The money's in the seed where no one want to deal with "weed (grass) seed."
3. Crop oil vs surfactant? Best to use what the label says to use. It's not there on a whim. However, this being food plotting and not production ag, you can probably get away using crop oil in place of a surfactant. The crop oil contains a surfactant. Just remember, you run the risk of some plant burn when using crop oil.
4. And finally, there's a subject here (and there and everywhere) we need to talk about more. It seems to me, science is telling us to use low volumes of water (higher concentrations of final spray material). And with this goes the need to pay attention to spray nozzle type and size. I think many cleth failures result from using too dilute a finished spray. I know thicker stands seem to require more water for adequate coverage. Be that as it may, gettiing coverage and concentration right is a tricky subject. I am leaning hard toward using less water and sacrificing some coverage for higher concentrations at the right droplet size.
1. Good scientific research has shown tank mixing clethodim and butryac is less effective at controlling grass and broadleaf weeds than either herbicide used individually. Admittedly, there are mixed results in some trials.
2. Clethodim is not labelled for clover except clover grown for seed in the northwest. It's economics. Herbicide registrations are expensive. The money's in the seed where no one want to deal with "weed (grass) seed."
3. Crop oil vs surfactant? Best to use what the label says to use. It's not there on a whim. However, this being food plotting and not production ag, you can probably get away using crop oil in place of a surfactant. The crop oil contains a surfactant. Just remember, you run the risk of some plant burn when using crop oil.
4. And finally, there's a subject here (and there and everywhere) we need to talk about more. It seems to me, science is telling us to use low volumes of water (higher concentrations of final spray material). And with this goes the need to pay attention to spray nozzle type and size. I think many cleth failures result from using too dilute a finished spray. I know thicker stands seem to require more water for adequate coverage. Be that as it may, gettiing coverage and concentration right is a tricky subject. I am leaning hard toward using less water and sacrificing some coverage for higher concentrations at the right droplet size.
hilltopper
5 year old buck +
I like that idea. Would cleth harm a brassica seedling?
Ben Glantz
5 year old buck +
I am pretty sure Cleth just targets grasses. I am also not sure on germination on the brassicas but I don't think they will be up in a week?
S.T.Fanatic
5 year old buck +
Depending on the brassica varieties and the conditions they should be up in a week or less
hilltopper
5 year old buck +
If I treated with cleth before mowing how long would I have to wait to throw and mow? I know the label says don't mow for two weeks before and after. Anyone have any experience mowing sooner?
hilltopper
5 year old buck +
So I followed Ben's advice with my grassy clover field. A week ago I broadcast the brassica mix, mowed the field (1 acre) really low (first pass with my tractor, follow up with riding mower). The grass greened up beautifully, the brassicas are germinating, and today I sprayed cleth. I think I'll mow close anytime I plan to use cleth in the future. That freshly growing field has got to be perfect for the cleth to work. I sprayed 10 ounces on the acre in 16 gallons of water. I used dawn, not crop oil, as I was reluctant to set the clover back too much. Best case scenario I have a nice field of brassicas and clover. Worst case is that the clover outcompetes the brassicas and I just have a nice clover field. Also, the geese (we had 6 broods 
) are sneaking into this field- not sure if they'll take out the brassica seedlings.
) are sneaking into this field- not sure if they'll take out the brassica seedlings.
Ben Glantz
5 year old buck +
So I followed Ben's advice with my grassy clover field. A week ago I broadcast the brassica mix, mowed the field (1 acre) really low (first pass with my tractor, follow up with riding mower). The grass greened up beautifully, the brassicas are germinating, and today I sprayed cleth. I think I'll mow close anytime I plan to use cleth in the future. That freshly growing field has got to be perfect for the cleth to work. I sprayed 10 ounces on the acre in 16 gallons of water. I used dawn, not crop oil, as I was reluctant to set the clover back too much. Best case scenario I have a nice field of brassicas and clover. Worst case is that the clover outcompetes the brassicas and I just have a nice clover field. Also, the geese (we had 6 broods
View attachment 13998
I just did the same approach with an aging clover plot I am trying to save/rebound. I spread clover seed, mowed 2 weeks ago and then sprayed cleth this past week. I am hoping the thatch from the grass covered the clover and then the dieing grass will help keep the ground moist for germination. I have never tried to reseed clover in the middle of july before but we have had some great rains, crossing my fingers. If this approach fails, I think I will broadcast some brassicas into the bare spots(if the cleth killed the grass) and then roll it. It will be a combo clover/brassica plot.
hilltopper
5 year old buck +
So my brassicas are germinating nicely (see above). Will the actively growing clover produce nitrogen that the brassicas can use? I seem to remember reading in some LC thread that the nitrogen is not really available until the clover is terminated. That was a surprise to me when I read it, and perhaps I misinterpreted the comments.
Ben, what is your general location?
Ben, what is your general location?
