Interesting discussion with Don Higgins on the Land Podcast

[buckdeer1]

The states get lobbied by the crossbow manufactures to open the season to anyone as they did in Kansas.We had it open to kids,handicap and elderly but that wasn't enough.Don't have an issue with them for these groups but if it has a scope but it in gun season

 

[blueKYstream]

The argument against crossbows is laughable. The scope is the issue? Are you as outraged about the use of Garmin sight (pictured below) on a bow? A crossbow, like a bow, isn't required to have a scope. What if some sort of bow scope becomes more common/affordable? The reasons crossbows are hated by so many can't even be agreed upon. No one is ever going to agree on a precise season or set of seasons. That's precisely why I think the abhorrent hatred for crossbows, or what other hunters decide to do within legal limits, is stupid. Frankly, I'm a little surprised that trail cams, particular cell trail cams, wouldn't be higher on the proverbial hit list.

 

[Spike_Horn_Shooter]

I could give you a bunch of reasons why I shoot a crossbow - work schedule, young kids, blah blah blah. It’s mostly because I don’t get my jiggles out of shooting a bow. I get my jiggles out of killing deer. I love killing deer.

I shoot deer with a crossbow, muzzleloader, rifle. I’d call in an artillery strike if I could save the meat. I’d use a spear if there was a season for that. I just love killing deer. If you don’t - what are you doing here.

Do crossbows give hunters an advantage over compound bows - yes definitely. I shot and wounded a couple deer with compound. Hated it. Wanted to quit bow hunting. I had practiced all summer and still screwed up.

I got a crossbow and started putting them down. Did I have an unfair advantage - probably, but I still had to put myself within 10 yards of deer (on the ground in a grille suit) on pretty pressured deer on VT Public land. I’d say that took some skill.

In Vermont we changed to a 1 buck state 2 years ago. I’ve seen more rutting behavior in the last two years than I did the previous 15.

If you want better hunting I’d say the 1 buck rule / and antler restrictions probably get you the best bang for the buck.

And as far as an unfair advantage goes - what about hunting 60 days a year on one of your private, managed midwest farms with standing corn, out of a redneck blinds - that’s unfair! That’s what all these YouTube heroes do, hell that’s what I’m trying to do! So all this unfair advantage stuff doesn’t hold a lot of water for me.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

I could give you a bunch of reasons why I shoot a crossbow - work schedule, young kids, blah blah blah. It’s mostly because I don’t get my jiggles out of shooting a bow. I get my jiggles out of killing deer. I love killing deer.

I shoot deer with a crossbow, muzzleloader, rifle. I’d call in an artillery strike if I could save the meat. I’d use a spear if there was a season for that. I just love killing deer. If you don’t - what are you doing here.

Do crossbows give hunters an advantage over compound bows - yes definitely. I shot and wounded a couple deer with compound. Hated it. Wanted to quit bow hunting. I had practiced all summer and still screwed up.

I got a crossbow and started putting them down. Did I have an unfair advantage - probably, but I still had to put myself within 10 yards of deer (on the ground in a grille suit) on pretty pressured deer on VT Public land. I’d say that took some skill.

In Vermont we changed to a 1 buck state 2 years ago. I’ve seen more rutting behavior in the last two years than I did the previous 15.

If you want better hunting I’d say the 1 buck rule / and antler restrictions probably get you the best bang for the buck.

And as far as an unfair advantage goes - what about hunting 60 days a year on one of your private, managed midwest farms with standing corn, out of a redneck blinds - that’s unfair! That’s what all these YouTube heroes do, hell that’s what I’m trying to do! So all this unfair advantage stuff doesn’t hold a lot of water for me.

Your Intellectual honesty is refreshing.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Would you be open to having a 1-day season where you choose your weapon: bow, crossbow, muzzleloader or rifle? That's the reverse extreme hypothetical. Everyone will have a "great" hunt if the argument against using crossbows is hunters in the woods pressuring deer.

If you're looking for an absolute statement, more deer were killed with a bow than a Crossbow in KY in 2021. Where is the argument against bows or the length of the bow season? If the crossbow hate is because more people in the woods, why wouldn't that argument be directed towards shortening bow season or firearms? I think it's safe to say there are far more gun hunters than bow and/or Crossbow hunters combined.

The DNRs are trying to balance attracting various hunters with maintaining or improving the the quality of the herd (depending on location). It seems like a fair compromise from all parties for the most part. Hence, that's why I don't understand the attack on the use of crossbows, in particular.

I didn't provide an extreme hypothetical, it was perfectly in line with the logic you used to support crossbows in archery season. Adding crossbows to archery season (in 2019?) allowed gun hunters in KY to go from a 15 day season to a 121 day season with the simple purchase of a crossbow. You acted like the folks who took the time to learn a skill of shooting a bow should mind their own business and pay no mind to the influx of additional hunters into the woods or the additional deer harvest. Since you dodged my question, I can't help but assume you only don't like people "telling others what they should or shouldn't do" when that something is what you want to do and less wounding loss is only a valid argument when it supports use of a crossbow.

To act like people who don't like crossbows in archery season are the ones trying to restrict everyone is laughable when the primary desire is only for opportunity to be the same it was 4 or 5 years ago. I'd have no issue if they took part of gun season and made it crossbow season but it would just be another taking of long existing opportunity by the new crossbow crowd for their solo benefit.

garmin sights - more whataboutism. I'm fine with them being illegal in all states during archery season as well.

 

[Telemark]

Everything we do is to get an advantage over the animals we pursue. This leads to better chances of success and more ethical kills. There is no logical argument to restricting the use of crossbows in favor of vertical bows.

All the arguments I've seen so far fall into two general cstegories: "because I put more effort in, it's not fair that crossbow hunters can share my bow season", or the more simplistic "I just don't like it". The first argument has nothing to do with an advantage over deer, but rather an advantage over other hunters. The second is pure egoism without even an attempt at justification. Both arguments are selfish at their core. And both are a form of gatekeeping, which is inappropriate in the world of hunting.

One main failure of the argument against hunter advantages over deer is that a hunter SHOULD take every advantage he can to get a clean kill because it is inherently more ethical. This type of argument is usually given when the technology or practice in question actually gives hunters advantages over each other.

I would always choose a crossbow over a vertical bow because I can shoot a crossbow better than I can shoot a vertical bow. I still need to put myself within archery range of a deer. And I don't think my lack of skill as an archer translates to lack of skill as a hunter. I will choose whatever available tool gives me the best odds for success, because my goal is to ethically kill the animal I am pursuing.

 

[Mortenson]

However, if someone wants to claim making crossbows legal during standard archery season has zero impact on the quality of hunting, i'll not hesitate to call BS.

Could one make a similar claim about let off percentages? Remember when P&Y requirement was 65%? I wonder what the average is these days, like 80-90%? Awesome bows readily made nowadays that are easy to hold at full draw have probably gotten a lot more kids and ladies out in the woods. That's good right? But it probably doesn't help the quality of hunting. Less big bucks around. If that's our gauge. Illinois dnr says big (old) bucks are bad though. CWD.

I wish all my neighbors would agree to not start hunting until my farmwork slows down sometime in November and I get a chance to hit the woods, then we could all start together. Life isn't fair, oh well! Good debate.

 

[SwampCat]

I remember back in the early 80’s when compounds were starting to catch on - I was mid 20’s - and bought a compound. My Dad called it a “cheater” because it was so much easier to shoot than a longbow or recurve. Some states went through the same thing with compounds - putting off allowing their use. About 20 years ago, I gave my wife a compound bow for Christmas. We sighted in that evening. She had never shot a bow in her life. She killed a doe with it the next day. For those who think a compound is the pinnacle of difficulty - pick up a recurve or long bow and see what you think. My dad never did buy a “cheater”. I sure did.

 

[Troubles Trees]

Learning how to effectively shoot a vertical bow keeps lots of people out of archery season

Is keeping people out of the woods what we are going for? Maybe that standard should go to compound hunters and the same complaint comes from the Recurve hunters?

This is why how good someone can get on a vertical bow with practice is almost meaningless in this conversation because crossbows are largely used by people because they require no practice.

The guy has no arms, if you think that is meaningless then we probably cant have an adult conversation about this. BTW you conveniently leave out the older generation that can't pull back a bow like my stepfather I used as an example, as well as people like myself with multipal shoulder surgeries. I still hunt with a bow, but don't practice as much because pain is a real thing for some of us.

There is a reason (usually) why "primative weapons" seasons were kept separate from firearm seasons related to both managing amount of deer killed and pressure placed on them.

Our muzzleloader seasons is the last hunting season of the year here in NY and it is 10 days long, is it where you live also? Do you think it is fair to primitive hunters that they hunt with an inferior weapon after the orange army has invaded the woods for a month with rifles and shotguns?

 

[Troubles Trees]

God forbid we actually make something a challenge.

I am going to go out on a limb here and assume you hunt with a Recurve, you know, for the challenge? If you do use a compound, do you use a trigger release? Does your bow have letoff? Do you use mechanicals? Just trying to feel you out to see where your challenge ends and bombs from airplanes start is all bud.

Hunting isn't about making it as challenging as possible for the hunter or treestands would be illegal, you could only hunt with a recurve and the season is only 1 week long with no gun season because where is the challenge at taking a deer at 200+ yards and open season for 2-3 months?

Hunting is about enjoying time in the woods with family and friends as well as putting some meat in the freezer, at least to some of us.

 

[homerj1]

Ah, the old "my kind of hunting is better than your kind of hunting" argument. It never gets old.

If it's legal and you want it to do it, go for it.

 

[Derek Reese 29]

I am reading through these posts wondering what would be the least ethical thing we could do to harvest a deer?
A10 Warthog cannon from 4000 ft in the air as the deer grazed in the 50x50' 5" deep corn pile? Using a fully auto rifle on the 8-truckload deep apple pile?
Night vision with a silencer in the standing beans?
I hunt with a bow because it's challenging and because there isn't an army of gun-toting idiots who can't read a map or a posted sign and are probably half in the bag or more at 7 AM stumbling around...
I have several times used a crossbow when it was way too cold to not wear enough clothes to successfully pull my bow back and shoot it.
And I killed deer after not shooting said crossbow in several years but was given the standard the "top line is 20 yards, second is 30" instructions....
I use a rifle when it's legal because hitting running deer at 200 yards is probably out of my purview with a bow (and mostly with a rifle) and I like to eat venison...

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

I am going to go out on a limb here and assume you hunt with a Recurve, you know, for the challenge? If you do use a compound, do you use a trigger release? Does your bow have letoff? Do you use mechanicals? Just trying to feel you out to see where your challenge ends and bombs from airplanes start is all bud.

Hunting isn't about making it as challenging as possible for the hunter or treestands would be illegal, you could only hunt with a recurve and the season is only 1 week long with no gun season because where is the challenge at taking a deer at 200+ yards and open season for 2-3 months?

Hunting is about enjoying time in the woods with family and friends as well as putting some meat in the freezer, at least to some of us.

I do hunt with a compound because it is a bow. It still requires practice to become proficient (I shoot multiple times a week and still am not perfect) and an understanding/skill of when do get ready to draw and get drawn. A crossbow requires very little of that. I feel that there should be some kind of investment for the trade off of a longer season where deer are less pressured and therefore still alive. I have no problem with hunting with crossbows in gun season or for folks above a certain age or with a medical condition. I also think modern muzzleloader season is a joke. It’s a single shot high performance rifle. The intent of both seasons has been lost as we seek to bend to any group who claims some form of discrimination. We all probably remember when muzzleloader got its own season…it was labeled primitive weapon season in Georgia and it was. When crossbows were allowed in bow season it was for the limitations listed above. Where does it end? Night season? I mean why not, the technology is there and god forbid we don’t let someone do something they want. Spring fawn season? They would be super easy then and everyone can win.
The argument that with these changes we are more ethical and humane doesn’t work for me. If we didn’t allow these shortcuts those not invested would most likely not be running around the woods wounding deer. Additionally if a 100% no doubt sure kill was the intent of rules, well by god we can open Pandora’s box of methods to ensure that happens. We have had limitations since hunting seasons have been enacted. Theycome from a place of conservative, sportsmanship and challenge. Lately we are working backwards to strip those. We aren’t going to stop until the outcome is never in question.

 

[Buckly]

So……. I’m looking through the NY Regs regarding crossbows for hunting. Then, I looked at all the Mission, Ten Point and Ravin crossbows. None of the bows, new ones anyways meet the definition of a legal crossbow in NY. 17” min tip to tip On the limbs. So I’m not sure there’s a huge amount of people using them at this point here but that’s just a guess. In NY they are put under the muzzleloader season but they can be used in the last 2 weeks of archery also. But, from my interpretation of the regs on the min limb width you cant even use them in the reg firearms season if they don’t meet the legal definition of 17” tip to tip. Is there a different take on this?

 

[Natty Bumppo]

I could give you a bunch of reasons why I shoot a crossbow - work schedule, young kids, blah blah blah. It’s mostly because I don’t get my jiggles out of shooting a bow. I get my jiggles out of killing deer. I love killing deer.

I shoot deer with a crossbow, muzzleloader, rifle. I’d call in an artillery strike if I could save the meat. I’d use a spear if there was a season for that. I just love killing deer. If you don’t - what are you doing here.

You fully understand that hunting for some folks goes WAY BEYOND bloodlust and the thrill of killing spike horns, correct?

 

[PatinPA]

You could make the same argument about rifles too. We're not allowed to use semi-auto rifles but in states that do allow it, that seems to me like it's an advantage to someone that prefers to shoot a single shot.

When it comes down to it, like most things, it's all about the money. It gets more people to buy hunting licenses and (I think most states are the same) also an archery stamp.

I prefer to hunt with a compound bow. I used to detest crossbows because the camp by my parents house were only rifle hunters and then when crossbows were legalized they all started showing up in archery season and absolutely ruined the hunting there for years.

I've softened my stance over the years with the opportunities it has given people (especially rookies) to hunt when it's warmer and hopefully enjoy it more

I will however, still take every opportunity to make fun of my friends that switched over and call them cheaters. haha

 

[Spike_Horn_Shooter]

You fully understand that hunting for some folks goes WAY BEYOND bloodlust and the thrill of killing spike horns, correct?

Most people are so wrapped around a damn stupid inches antler score they forget what hunting is about - Killing deer, hanging out with your friends, getting away from the bull crap at work etc.

I’m sorry, but lots of people in the hunting world complaining about what people are using to legally harvest animals, and how it’s negatively affecting their hunting because we can’t all shoot 160” deer. Figure out how to be a better hunter / land manager and get down wind of those bucks.

Before I sold my last farm - I was rotatation grazing a herd of cattle, pigs and birds. I’m well aware of the benefits of holistic management and wildlife. I go hunting to kill something.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Could one make a similar claim about let off percentages? Remember when P&Y requirement was 65%? I wonder what the average is these days, like 80-90%? Awesome bows readily made nowadays that are easy to hold at full draw have probably gotten a lot more kids and ladies out in the woods. That's good right? But it probably doesn't help the quality of hunting. Less big bucks around. If that's our gauge. Illinois dnr says big (old) bucks are bad though. CWD.

I wish all my neighbors would agree to not start hunting until my farmwork slows down sometime in November and I get a chance to hit the woods, then we could all start together. Life isn't fair, oh well! Good debate.

Certainly you could make the claim that higher letoff makes bows more effective weapons. I wouldn't argue.

 

[Native Hunter]

In my younger days I hunted deer with guns, bows, and crossbows. Then, there came a time in my life due to work demands that I just gun hunted. I retired earlier this year and recently went out and bought a Ravin Crossbow. I had so much fun getting it dialed in and testing broadheads that I went out a few days later and bought a new Matthews V3X compound. Even though I do occasionally experience some shoulder tenderness, I've been able to shoot the V3X extremely well at 55 pounds so far. I wouldn't be afraid to take a shot at 25 - 30 yards right now with it. However, as a senior I can legally hunt the entire archery season with a crossbow, so for the near future that's what I will be using. I'm only hunting mature bucks this year, so the chance of me even getting a shot at one I want is low.

I'm headed out this afternoon for a crossbow hunt and will spend the night in the blind. Tomorrow morning, our two day ML season opens and I will already be in place for the ML opener. A buddy of mine a couple of miles away saw a mature buck chasing a doe yesterday afternoon out in the open, so it kind of has me pumped.

PS - I might add that my VX3 is keeping me from wearing out my Ravin. I've already put 63 shots through the Ravin, and the strings and cables have to be replaced at 200 shots. So look at all the money I'm saving .

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Everything we do is to get an advantage over the animals we pursue. This leads to better chances of success and more ethical kills. There is no logical argument to restricting the use of crossbows in favor of vertical bows.

Nonsense. If we agree that there are reasonable restrictions to limit hunter's effectiveness, there is likely a logical argument. Whether or not that argument fits YOUR desired balance of opportunity is another story.

All the arguments I've seen so far fall into two general cstegories: "because I put more effort in, it's not fair that crossbow hunters can share my bow season", or the more simplistic "I just don't like it". The first argument has nothing to do with an advantage over deer, but rather an advantage over other hunters. The second is pure egoism without even an attempt at justification. Both arguments are selfish at their core. And both are a form of gatekeeping, which is inappropriate in the world of hunting.

One main failure of the argument against hunter advantages over deer is that a hunter SHOULD take every advantage he can to get a clean kill because it is inherently more ethical. This type of argument is usually given when the technology or practice in question actually gives hunters advantages over each other.

I would always choose a crossbow over a vertical bow because I can shoot a crossbow better than I can shoot a vertical bow. I still need to put myself within archery range of a deer. And I don't think my lack of skill as an archer translates to lack of skill as a hunter. I will choose whatever available tool gives me the best odds for success, because my goal is to ethically kill the animal I am pursuing.

I'll ask you the same question nobody else wants to answer - if archery seasons are just for egoism and selfish people, should we eliminate them and make it rifle season Sept - January? Why have a crossbow season, they are less effective than firearms. It's all just gatekeeping, shouldn't we be able to take every advantage we can to get a clean kill?

It's funny how anyone who wants the line anywhere in front of where we want it is "selfish". I'll acknowledge that I have selfish desires, what burns me is when people who also have selfish desires are dishonest about it and try to make others out to be the bad guys for seeing things differently.